Given our form over the past 3 months...

[Dan Warna]

Rebuild or tinker for 2012?

IMO our first two months had people ripping their hair out.

We are now going into the finals with a chance of a home final, If we win that, a home semi.

we will in all likelyhood finish 6th or 7th, depending on our form against Carlton.

Do we look at players like sylvia and other goodish talent and rebuild then in the Ross Lyon method?

Do we look at a new coach?

do we look at turning over 1/4 of the list as some suggest?

I would rather people not name names here for a negative aspect (talk up the players coming through!)

For me, I think we will have 2 to 3 retirements (some maybe asked to retire) We will trade 2 or 3 mid range players and we will draft 3 in the middle of the list.

I think we'll have 2 massive recruitments in lenny and gwilt, We'll have a nice back up player in McQualter. Steven, Mac and Armitage will be a year old and a year stronger. Tommy Walsh and Winmar hopefully will come into serious consideration. Thats maybe a 5 player turn around form 2009 in Stevens, Mac, Armo, TW and Winmar, and two big ins from 2011 in lenny and gwilt. Lenny and Milne will be 31 and fish 30.

Many of players will be 25 to 30 and at their peak.

We'll have 1/4 of our team between 20 and 25.

IMO I think if we can land one medium size rough nut to give Armo some protection in the middle (sylvia?) then I think if our mental position is good we can be challengers in 2012 again.

I think sides are worried about st kilda even in 2011, minus gwilt and Lenny, many of our injuries (and it is substantial) is to periphery players. I think our issues are even if we get to a prelim we won't have had the breaks collingwood/geelong/hawthorn in recent weeks.

IMO the coach will go the tinker rather than the rebuild.

[Con Gorozidis]

tinker for sure.
i think we will get one last crack at the title next year. will come down to luck and injuries and hopefully we can get one or two quality additions.
we need big improvement from a few young guys and everything to go right off field. also i think we will be settled in to seaford this summer which will be less disruptive.

2013 - rebuild for sure.

[borderbarry]

This years draft is too compromised for a re-build. Maybe next year. Tinker time again, but pick up the best youngsters we can. Trade for picks.

[Junction Oval]

I agree Con, I think that next year is our last opportunity at a serious GF crack, before the necessity to rebuild. Our top 6 deserve another crack at it, as I am certain that some of them will have taken pay cuts and/or knocked back big offers to move elsewhere.

It takes many years to "rebuild," so let's get a couple of decent mid-fielders and a back-up ruckman and have another crack at it !

The coaching situation will look after itself and should not be an issue. If we get to a "rebuild" situation, a change of coach would not be as bad as we think it would be right now. For the record, I am a big supporter of Ross.

[Jacks Back]

Rebuild or tinker for 2012?
We are now going into the finals with a chance of a home final, If we win that, a home semi.

If we win the first week then we may have a semi in West Coast Eagle Land.

[Stillwaiting]

As Dan said, we will basicallyhave 2 top additions to this team in Lenny and Quilt. Ad to that the massive improvement in Ben and Jack, and continued improvement of the likes of Sipposs, Winmar and Cripps we could see some real improvement. As for drafts and trades, just let that take it's natural course. No point trading for the sake of it, very rarely do you get much more than like for like. The draft should be used on the best availble kids with gooddisposal.

[plugger66]

Rebuild or tinker for 2012?
We are now going into the finals with a chance of a home final, If we win that, a home semi.

If we win the first week then we may have a semi in West Coast Eagle Land.

Cannot happen. We will play the loser of Hawthorn and Geelong and if a miracle occurs then we would play the pies in the prelim if and when they beat WCE.

[Rosco]

tinker - compromised draft, lenny coming back, very good in the second half of the season, obviously fevola as the spearhead next year

[Legendary]

Tinker.

One last crack with Lenny and Gwilt back, Cripps/Ledger/Siposs coming through and possibly a wild card recruit thrown in. With the continued improvement of Armitage/Steven/McEvoy/Geary etc., we still have a chance to win one next year IMO.

Especially with a "quiet" summer this year!


This is a weak draft, not the time to be rebuilding.

However if we fell short again next year, you would look at trading some big name players and stocking up on young kids again in an excellent draft.

[prwilkinson]

Tinker... I have a really really good feeling about next season... call in blind hope but I dunno.... 2012.... Has a nice ring to it. Fev is looking a better and better pick up by the day.

[Dan Warna]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

[Richter]

Tinker.

Back line remains good and will improve when Gwilty comes back in. Geary and Simpson seem like good young back-ups.

Mid will be hugely improved with Lenny back. Polo for back-up. Leder, Cripps up and comers.

Forward line - needs to have two Tall players to function properly. Up and comers Sippos, Walsh.

OVERALL needs

Draft a potential replacement for Milne

Trade for a 2nd ruckman. Freo, Essendon and the Roos may have one would could be tempted to jump ship.

[plugger66]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Certainly tinker. As I've been saying for a while, I expect we'll be in a stronger position next year, unless something pretty awful happens in the meantime.
Lenny and Gwilt back hopefully and maybe someone like a Dawes, if some are to be believed, or else perhaps Tommy, who I really believe could add something to our forward line. I expect he'll be given a good chance to show what he has to offer in the NAB Cup and if he grabs a spot, it could really make us stronger.
Then if any of Cripps, Ledger, or Siposs really have a good year it will add to our team. It wouldn't surprise if either of the first two, especially, had a good year, if they stay injury free.
And as I've also been saying for a while, if we can nab one or two of the best performed from the VFL, that suit our requirements (most notably speed and skill and/or Fev) and will be ready to go immediately, then we could really add to our depth almost overnight.
They had an article in the paper a month or so ago, with the most likely ones in the VFL to get drafted this year and at least a couple of them sounded ideal for our needs. One who is short and playing in the back pocket and apparently has real speed and skill and another with genuine speed and skill who plays mid/forward. If we find someone that would have anywhere near the sort of (immediate) impact that the likes of Barlow, Podsiadly, Silvagni, Isaac Smith etc have had, it would be terrific and could make us immediately stronger.
This doesn't seem like the time to rebuild, with an apparently weak draft coming up and having a team strong enough to have a crack at a flag.

[mad saint guy]

With some good, agressive recruiting, an excellent pre season and a bit of luck I think we can be a contendor next year. Much of it rides on the return of Lenny and the development of Steven, Armitage, Siposs, Ledger, Cripps and Walsh. Whether Gilbert and Kosi can play to their best is absolutely vital as well.

Ideally we will snare a couple of quick, skilled midfielders/running defenders in the off season and to be honest I'd be happy if we drafted Fev, even though we could probably only have one of him, Kosi and Walsh in the team at a time. We do need several options for key forward and ruck rather than just going into the season assuming Kosi and McEvoy will be available and firing all year.

So in summary I think we should go agressively for quality players in trade week, cut the deadwood and load up for one last crack at a flag while we still have the core group together.

[StNoodles]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

I think Cripps and Ledger can definitely have an impact next season.

[plugger66]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

I think Cripps and Ledger can definitely have an impact next season.

I hope you are right. All I see is another 5-10 games of improving football. I just cant see who they can be better than who is currently in the team.

[SaintPav]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

Well if you put it that way, we are fu_ked and the window has closed.

[plugger66]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

Well if you put it that way, we are fu_ked and the window has closed.

Dont see it that way. If we played like we have in the 10 weeks for the whole year then we may have won enough to finish top 4 and that is without Lenny.

[desertsaint]

if our top three forwards kick 150 between them, walsh gets 20-40, schneids 30, now add siposs with 30, and cripps 20 and another 100 between the rest.
then we're still about 100 goals shy of collingwood.

[Cairnsman]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

Well if you put it that way, we are fu_ked and the window has closed.

Dont see it that way. If we played like we have in the 10 weeks for the whole year then we may have won enough to finish top 4 and that is without Lenny.

So Lenny is the key to our flag hopes next year. Can't see it. Most guys that come back from knees take a while (usually the best part of a season) to get the confidence in the knee back. And for a guy in his 30s it may be hard year for him. I hope we've got a plan B.

[plugger66]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

Well if you put it that way, we are fu_ked and the window has closed.

Dont see it that way. If we played like we have in the 10 weeks for the whole year then we may have won enough to finish top 4 and that is without Lenny.

So Lenny is the key to our flag hopes next year. Can't see it. Most guys that come back from knees take a while (usually the best part of a season) to get the confidence in the knee back. And for a guy in his 30s it may be hard year for him. I hope we've got a plan B.

Lenny isnt the key. A good start is the key. Lenny is the icing on top. Think Lenny did ok the year after coming back from his last knee injury.

[Cairnsman]

F.ebola I hope won't be coming.

I thinking a fit Kosi = 50 goals

riewoldt = 50 goals

Milne = 50 goals

TW to play HFF/wing and contribute 20 to 40 goals.

we are going to be like geelong in 2008 and the Brions between 01 and 03 and have a broad spread of contributing forwards.

Lets be honest if Walsh kicks 20 goals next year that would be a great effort and Kosi will not kick 50 goals. He has about 15 this year so the chances are not much. Schneider will kick about 30 and we need probably 5-10 goals more out of each mid. Our major improvement will be from Lenny and a better mental attitude from round one. The younger players will again have very minimal impact. Our worry is that we have hardly had an injury this year apart from Lenny and Jimmy later in the year. We certainly need that again next year as we have very ordinary depth.

Well if you put it that way, we are fu_ked and the window has closed.

Dont see it that way. If we played like we have in the 10 weeks for the whole year then we may have won enough to finish top 4 and that is without Lenny.

So Lenny is the key to our flag hopes next year. Can't see it. Most guys that come back from knees take a while (usually the best part of a season) to get the confidence in the knee back. And for a guy in his 30s it may be hard year for him. I hope we've got a plan B.

Lenny isnt the key. A good start is the key. Lenny is the icing on top. Think Lenny did ok the year after coming back from his last knee injury.

Yeah and lightening strikes twice. My point is he's a lot older than when it last happened in football years and the coach would surely have a plan B. Let's hope. Your point about depth is a good one. At the moment and for the next year or two we would need absolutely need everything to go our way to even be a remote chance. Our only chance for a flag with the current crop of vetrans is for there to be a huge amount of luck go our way and then some. Geelong, Hawthorn and the Pies have prooved in recent times that you need a team with and average age of 25 or less.

[Richter]

As always, there isn't one key. The club needs to look at incremental improvements everywhere.

Why did we improve so dramatically from 2008 to 2009?

Because the defensive unit improved dramatically. Because the elite mids especially BJ and Joey improved dramatically. Because the forward 5 improved dramatically especially Kosi and finding a role for the likes of Mini who provided a whole new style of attack - 'forward pressure'. This was a year in which we lost Banger and many were bemoaning that we did not pick up Cousins.

It wasn't just the team that improved though, the coaches did too. SOS, Leigh tudor and above all Ross Lyon. Off field we improved as the new admin settled in and the medical team improved also.

So for next year? What is the key? Same as always, incremental improvements everywhere..... identify any immediate expected/potential losses and look to cover them through trading - midfield, small forward, ruck (Lenny, Milne aging - Gards/Blake aging/retiring) and do the same for the medium term.... Sam Fisher aging (JG next quarterback), Roo and Kosi aging (TW next power forward).... long term.... less easy to be sure, but likes of Steven, big Mac coming through - more development will be put into Cripps, Ledger, Sippos....

[bobmurray]

I hope one of you lot informs Ross of the folly of his plan to cut deep...

Just in case he wasn't telling porkies.......