Was Ross ever really a Saint?

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Lyin's defection and subsequent trashing of the club motto -- "In my five years at the Saints I never once mentioned the word 'loyalty'" -- simply prove what many of us have suspected for a long time: that this man was never a True Sainter.

Don't get me wrong. He was a good, even excellent coach. In fact, his record makes him the second most successful coach in the club's history. (And but for a couple of errant GF bounces he could have been our most successful coach.) And who would really care where his allegiances lie if he'd won us the ultimate prize?

Still, you only have to compare him to two other "outside" coaches -- Stan Alves and Ken Sheldon -- to see a man who never really embraced the club. Who may indeed have had contempt for it. And clearly has little respect for anyone who practises the antiquated code of "loyalty" (read, the supporter base).

The signs were there early. The ringing endorsement of notorious St Kilda-hater Robert Walls. An article by Caro in 2008 that mentioned some insider disappointment at Lyin's continuing love affair with the Swans. The very fact that he bought a house at Doncaster -- a long way from Moorabbin, let alone Seaford (anything wrong with some heartland real estate?). Not to mention his poor relationship with famous supporters (e.g., at least two unnecessary potshots at Shane Warne).

Perhaps suffering from character insecurity -- he inherited a finals team from a man perceived as a dyed-in-the-wool Sainter -- he did much to brand the team in his own image. Too much. There was the defensive game-plan, sure, but there was also a small army of imported role-players (including two old buddies from the Swans) who seemed to get preferential treatment at the selection table. And while Robert Harvey was given a graceful send-off, other heart-and-soul players were treated with a conspicuous lack of respect. Max Hudghton: see you later, pal. Luke Ball: good luck getting to Collingwood. Matt Maguire: I'll try to get you your 100th game before the end of the season -- oh no I won't.

The pact that these players made under GT -- that they were going to stick together until they won a premiership, whatever the cost -- was ruthlessly busted by Lyin'. Because he probably didn't understand it.

Then came the "scandals". And the reports via media friends Paul Roos and Robert Walls that Lyin' might walk. Because clearly he was better than this. Because he was so disgusted. Because at the Swans they had a "no d**khead" rule. But look at these tawdry Saints. They're damaging the coach's brand.

Excuse me? Only the NZ drugs scandal had any real weight, and for failing to impose a proper code of discipline Lyin' is as responsible as anyone else -- if not more so. The Kim Duthie scandal was a media disgrace. And the Andrew Lovett scandal ... well, who was who recruited Lovett to the club in the first place? Who recruited Michael Gardiner, for that matter? And would have recruited Ben Cousins but for some last-minute boardroom nerves?

On top of this, Lyin' milked the last drop out of the team and bailed out like a rat deserting a sinking ship. There was no forward planning. The recruitment of Lovett and the Luke Ball disaster cost us early draft picks. The recruitment of other rejects wasted space and resources.

Again, despite some media attempts to rewrite history, Lyin' inherited a top-class team. We would have been top four again in 2006 but for the stripping of "Sirengate" points and another grievous run of injuries. In fact, we would have won the 2006 Elimination Final but for about six onfield injuries. He capitalised on the sensational sacking of GT when the Saints were a circus run by a deluded IT millionaire.

And now history repeats itself. Fremantle are spiritually a top six side crippled by injuries. The management is a Butterss-like circus. And in swoops "career coach" Lyin' like a hungry jackal.

As for the next Saints coach, we're not looking for a man with a St Kilda history: in any case, there don't seem to be any in contention apart from Robert Harvey. But we sure hope that -- whoever he is -- he makes a sincere effort to embrace the club.

[plugger66]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

[bigcarl]

Lyin's defection and subsequent trashing of the club motto -- "In my five years at the Saints I never once mentioned the word 'loyalty'" -- simply prove what many of us have suspected for a long time: that this man was never a True Sainter.

etc
etc.

Well said.

Give me someone who is fair dinkum about the club like GT was.

[Moods]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

I'm not pumping up GT's tyres for a minute. You're seeing things between the lines that aren't there. I said only that GT was perceived as a dyed-in-the-wool Saints man, which may have led to Lyon's insecurity.

I also said that if RL had won a flag, no one would care where his true allegiances lie. Of course we wouldn't.

But a club that doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash is better off with a coach who has a streak of loyalty in him. Loyalty and sentiment aren't mutually exclusive with a successful coach, you know.

We had a mercenary who ran the club into the ground and then bailed when it looked like his precious win-loss ratio might be under threat. We don't need another coach like that.

[dragit]

Was Yabby a true Saint?
He won 4 flags at Hawthorn, but is still a great of our club.

[plugger66]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

I'm not pumping up GT's tyres for a minute. You're seeing things between the lines that aren't there. I said only that GT was perceived as a dyed-in-the-wool Saints man, which may have led to Lyon's insecurity.

I also said that if RL had won a flag, no one would care where his true allegiances lie. Of course we wouldn't.

But a club that doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash is better off with a coach who has a streak of loyalty in him. Loyalty and sentiment aren't mutually exclusive with a successful coach, you know.

We had a mercenary who ran the club into the ground and then bailed when it looked like his precious win-loss ratio might be under threat. We don't need another coach like that.

If he ran the club into the ground then we have some poor footy judges on here. Some thought we could win the GF or at least get to the prelim from 6th and most seemed to think we still had GF hopes next season. Now all of a sudden this guy has wrecked the club. And was does loyalty mean for a coach? I dont get that at all. RL seemed very loyal until 5 days ago.

[Moods]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

I'm not pumping up GT's tyres for a minute. You're seeing things between the lines that aren't there. I said only that GT was perceived as a dyed-in-the-wool Saints man, which may have led to Lyon's insecurity.

I also said that if RL had won a flag, no one would care where his true allegiances lie. Of course we wouldn't.

But a club that doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash is better off with a coach who has a streak of loyalty in him. Loyalty and sentiment aren't mutually exclusive with a successful coach, you know.

We had a mercenary who ran the club into the ground and then bailed when it looked like his precious win-loss ratio might be under threat. We don't need another coach like that.

Fair enough. Are you saying though Schneider and Dempster haven't deserved their spots? If you are, then isn't this contrary to Lyon's precious win/loss ratio. Why play players who aren't good enough due to some misplaced loyalty to them? If he was obsessed with his win/loss ratio he would play anyone who he thought would help the team win wouldn't he?

Let's look at some of the recruiting. Schneids was 23 when he came to the club. Young and has been good value up fwd. Tick .

Dempster. Has struggled in the past but is universally regarded as having played well this year. 23 when recruited. Debateable tick.

King. Old warhorse who came for nothing. Tick
Gardiner. Old warhorse who came for nothing Tick - both these players needed as we had no rucks.

Ray. 23 when recruited. Has been solid since joining and imo has certainly not held anyone back from getting a game. Tick.

Polo. Not sure of age, but I thought an unnecessary pick. Has been ok but poor skills. Fail.

Patterson - Fail. Not sure why he went for him.

Charlie Gardiner - Fail but recruited for a specific need.
Ryan Gamble - Fail. but recruited for a specific need.

Were these last two holding Tom Lynch back? I don't reckon, b/c I reckon Lynch is even worse than these two.

Dawson - Tick. No-one else can play there, and he's been good these last three years. Was also young when recruited.

Overall I reckon our recruiting has been solid w/o being brilliant. Most of the recycled players have been young when recruited. Schneider, Dempster, ray, Dawson and have improved us in areas of the ground we were struggling. The quest for a hard tackling 3rd tall, ie Dane Beames type continues though.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

I'm not pumping up GT's tyres for a minute. You're seeing things between the lines that aren't there. I said only that GT was perceived as a dyed-in-the-wool Saints man, which may have led to Lyon's insecurity.

I also said that if RL had won a flag, no one would care where his true allegiances lie. Of course we wouldn't.

But a club that doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash is better off with a coach who has a streak of loyalty in him. Loyalty and sentiment aren't mutually exclusive with a successful coach, you know.

We had a mercenary who ran the club into the ground and then bailed when it looked like his precious win-loss ratio might be under threat. We don't need another coach like that.

If he ran the club into the ground then we have some poor footy judges on here. Some thought we could win the GF or at least get to the prelim from 6th and most seemed to think we still had GF hopes next season. Now all of a sudden this guy has wrecked the club. And was does loyalty mean for a coach? I dont get that at all. RL seemed very loyal until 5 days ago.

RL is loyal only to himself and admitted as much in his Freo presser. I don't like that quality and I don't believe there's much in it for a team like the Saints. Not asking for a Saints man in the coaching role (Robert Harvey, for instance, would be a big mistake IMHO) -- just someone less cynical and self-serving than RL.

A letter in today's Age says it well: "Pity Freo -- they went to bed with Mark Harvey and woke up with Ayn Rand." If Lyin' ever asks a Freo player to bleed for the club or accept a pay-cut for the good of the team ... well, it's not going to carry much weight, is it?

[meher baba]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

If we are talking about "getting real", then I think you - and all the others who go on here with this crap about Thomas wanting to get rid of Harvey - ought to acknowledge that it was 100% clear from the context that Thomas meant to say "exit him in" (meant to be a cute comment) but it came out wrong. There has never been a shred of evidence that Thomas truly wanted to get rid of Harvey.

And as for wanting to trade Milne and Maguire: why not? What if we'd gotten someone better for either or both of them. Half the posters on this forum seem to want to trade away 3/4 of the team at the end of this season. Lyon hardly used Maguire and ended up trading him away for very little. And, back in 2006, it was quite reasonable to say that Milne certainly hadn't ever delivered in finals, or even away from the Dome.

There are plenty of things to fairly criticise Thomas about, but this is rubbish.

[SainterK]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

I'm not pumping up GT's tyres for a minute. You're seeing things between the lines that aren't there. I said only that GT was perceived as a dyed-in-the-wool Saints man, which may have led to Lyon's insecurity.

I also said that if RL had won a flag, no one would care where his true allegiances lie. Of course we wouldn't.

But a club that doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash is better off with a coach who has a streak of loyalty in him. Loyalty and sentiment aren't mutually exclusive with a successful coach, you know.

We had a mercenary who ran the club into the ground and then bailed when it looked like his precious win-loss ratio might be under threat. We don't need another coach like that.

Fair enough. Are you saying though Schneider and Dempster haven't deserved their spots? If you are, then isn't this contrary to Lyon's precious win/loss ratio. Why play players who aren't good enough due to some misplaced loyalty to them? If he was obsessed with his win/loss ratio he would play anyone who he thought would help the team win wouldn't he?

Let's look at some of the recruiting. Schneids was 23 when he came to the club. Young and has been good value up fwd. Tick .

Dempster. Has struggled in the past but is universally regarded as having played well this year. 23 when recruited. Debateable tick.

King. Old warhorse who came for nothing. Tick
Gardiner. Old warhorse who came for nothing Tick - both these players needed as we had no rucks.

Ray. 23 when recruited. Has been solid since joining and imo has certainly not held anyone back from getting a game. Tick.

Polo. Not sure of age, but I thought an unnecessary pick. Has been ok but poor skills. Fail.

Patterson - Fail. Not sure why he went for him.

Charlie Gardiner - Fail but recruited for a specific need.
Ryan Gamble - Fail. but recruited for a specific need.

Were these last two holding Tom Lynch back? I don't reckon, b/c I reckon Lynch is even worse than these two.

Dawson - Tick. No-one else can play there, and he's been good these last three years. Was also young when recruited.

Overall I reckon our recruiting has been solid w/o being brilliant. Most of the recycled players have been young when recruited. Schneider, Dempster, ray, Dawson and have improved us in areas of the ground we were struggling. The quest for a hard tackling 3rd tall, ie Dane Beames type continues though.

Been quite a few more journeyman than that though?

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Let's look at some of the recruiting. Schneids was 23 when he came to the club. Young and has been good value up fwd. Tick .

Dempster. Has struggled in the past but is universally regarded as having played well this year. 23 when recruited. Debateable tick.

King. Old warhorse who came for nothing. Tick
Gardiner. Old warhorse who came for nothing Tick - both these players needed as we had no rucks.

Ray. 23 when recruited. Has been solid since joining and imo has certainly not held anyone back from getting a game. Tick.

Polo. Not sure of age, but I thought an unnecessary pick. Has been ok but poor skills. Fail.

Patterson - Fail. Not sure why he went for him.

Charlie Gardiner - Fail but recruited for a specific need.
Ryan Gamble - Fail. but recruited for a specific need.

Were these last two holding Tom Lynch back? I don't reckon, b/c I reckon Lynch is even worse than these two.

Dawson - Tick. No-one else can play there, and he's been good these last three years. Was also young when recruited.

Overall I reckon our recruiting has been solid w/o being brilliant. Most of the recycled players have been young when recruited. Schneider, Dempster, ray, Dawson and have improved us in areas of the ground we were struggling. The quest for a hard tackling 3rd tall, ie Dane Beames type continues though.

Can't argue that much of the recruiting has borne dividends. Although there's also Jesse Smith, Lovett , Matthew Clarke and probably a few others I've forgotten. Point is, the team has an inordinately large percentage of foreign legion players. Bomber Thompson made a point of it prior to the 2009 Grand Final ("We breed our own down here.") And I tend to believe that RL favoured these players exactly because they came from outside, like him. At the expense, that is, of homegrown players and future development -- which is precisely why Pelchen was brought into the club IMO.

[St Ick]

My thoughts of RL's time at St Kilda was the secrecy, the topping up of the list and the painful game plan.

Secrecy - how many closed training sessions did we have? I remember last year with the huge crowds at Collingwood training, giving them an edge in momentum, support and a better atmosphere IMO. I kept thinking this has to be a positive for the filth yet we had closed sessions bar one I think. Plus we loyal supporters missed out on being more of a part of the weeks leading up to the big one/s.

Topping up the list - Shane Birss, Michael Gardiner, Matthew Clarke, Jayden Attard, Adam Schneider, Sean Dempster, Charlie Gardiner, Steven King, Farren Ray, Colm Begley, Zac Dawson, Brett Peake, Jesse Smith, Adam Pattison, Andrew Lovett, Ryan Gamble and Dean Polo all came to the Saints under RL. I haven't mentioned re-listed Saints players such as Mini, G-train, Eddy, Fisher, Allen etc. Some of these guys got injured, some just weren't good enough but they all had some sort of question mark over their head when they were dumped or moved on from their club. I believe you know a LOT more about a mature aged player than an unknown kid so we shouldn't have had as many misses as we had.
To me, RL tried to fill gaps to win GF's, he nearly did, but where is the succession plan? These guys either took the onfield spot of a developing kid on our list or took a spot on a list for another kid who could have turned into a gun.
17 players from other clubs and maybe 3, 4 success stories. Has the myth that if anyone can get the best out of someone its Ross hurt the club for the 5 years after Roo/Lenny etc retire?

Game plan - pretty self explanatory but, despite making the GF two years in a row, we only smashed other teams with a superior game plan for one season. The other season it was only superhuman efforts by Lenny, BJ and a couple of others who got us over the line and our belief that we could overrun anyone. Now I can handle the criticism if we won a flag, but ultimately, we didn't get there.

Overall, i've enjoyed winning more often than losing so I have put up with things I haven't liked, but looking at it, RL wasn't the saviour, yes, great coach, but did a lot of things that frustrated us supporters and hopefully with the new coach, we'll get supporters back to games and reinvigorate both the list, and supporters alike...

[meher baba]

I fervently believe all of the following things (simultaneously):

1. GT was a selfish egomaniac who couldn't coach, who destroyed our list by (a) insisting on recruiting Ball over Judd, (b) trying to top up with recycled players like Brooks, Watts, Fiora and McGough, (c) not caring enough about hitouts to advantage, and (d) personally causing every injury ever experienced by any player at our club by simply uttering the phrase "Training Services" on one notorious occasion.

2. Lyon was the Messiah who fixed the disastrous situation created by GT. His game plan might have seemed almost identical to that of Paul Roos but it wasn't, it was an apotheosis of all things St Kilda, created out of the blood, sweat and tears of generations of loyal Saints players and fans and thereby worthy of being christened with the name "Saints Footy". Lyon also brought Dave Misson to the club whose world's best practice conditioning regime prevent any further serious injuries to our players: those experienced by Raph and Riewoldt last year and Lenny and Gwilt this year being due either to those players not obeying Misson's instructions or else some sort of lingering emanation of GT's statement about "Training Services" (which, when you think about it, was really a sort of eternal curse placed on the club by that particular spawn of Satan ).

3. Lyon was the one of the most trustworthy people who had ever walked the earth a sort of living incarnation of the spirits of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King combined. But then suddenly, he was struck down by an evil curse. Was it perhaps "Training Services" again? Or even the dreaded "doom of Seaford", which threatened to destine him - like the Wandering Jew before him - to roam ceaselessly across the entire surface of the earth (or, at least, undertake the daily drive from Reservoir to Seaford and back).

4. Since being struck down by the curse of Training Services or the doom of Seaford, Lyon has himself become the living embodiment of Satan incarnate. And, lo, the book of history have been rewritten and it has now been discovered that it was Lyon, not GT, who couldn't coach and who was hell-bent on destroying our list with his role players and guys who couldn't kick and his running Riewoldt into the ground and not playing Tommy Walsh and etc, etc, etc.

[bigcarl]

I fervently believe all of the following things (simultaneously):

1. GT was a selfish egomaniac who couldn't coach, who destroyed our list by (a) insisting on recruiting Ball over Judd, (b) trying to top up with recycled players like Brooks, Watts, Fiora and McGough, (c) not caring enough about hitouts to advantage, and (d) personally causing every injury ever experienced by any player at our club by simply uttering the phrase "Training Services" on one notorious occasion.

2. Lyon was the Messiah who fixed the disastrous situation created by GT. His game plan might have seemed almost identical to that of Paul Roos but it wasn't, it was an apotheosis of all things St Kilda, created out of the blood, sweat and tears of generations of loyal Saints players and fans and thereby worthy of being christened with the name "Saints Footy". Lyon also brought Dave Misson to the club whose world's best practice conditioning regime prevent any further serious injuries to our players: those experienced by Raph and Riewoldt last year and Lenny and Gwilt this year being due either to those players not obeying Misson's instructions or else some sort of lingering emanation of GT's statement about "Training Services" (which, when you think about it, was really a sort of eternal curse placed on the club by that particular spawn of Satan ).

3. Lyon was the one of the most trustworthy people who had ever walked the earth a sort of living incarnation of the spirits of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King combined. But then suddenly, he was struck down by an evil curse. Was it perhaps "Training Services" again? Or even the dreaded "doom of Seaford", which threatened to destine him - like the Wandering Jew before him - to roam ceaselessly across the entire surface of the earth (or, at least, the daily drive from Reservoir to Seaford and back).

4. Since being struck down by the curse of Training Services or the doom of Seaford, Lyon has himself become the living embodiment of Satan incarnate. And, lo, the book of history have been rewritten and it has now been discovered that it was Lyon, not GT, who couldn't coach and who was hell-bent on destroying our list with his role players and guys who couldn't kick and his running Riewoldt into the ground and not playing Tommy Walsh and etc, etc, etc.

GOLD

[St Lenny]

I actually agree with you Waltzing St Kilda. The answer is simple. No he did not embrace St Kilda. I did approve of the "image" he wanted the boys to give. If you cant go to the trouble of presenting yourself properly, its not professional. I did not like the closed door attitude. Keeping the players from the fans. And I agree he didnt have a succession plan.

We have now had 2 coaches in a row that, didnt get on well with the media. And didn't bring on the young players. GT didnt even have any rookies. Not that ours have done any good under Lyin.

I believe this is achillies heel. What would have happened if he stayed? We would just drop further down the ladder. Why did it matter so much to him about the out clause. Did he not have confidence he could rebuild and that we would sack him, just maybe. And when we offered what he wanted, he could have stayed with us.

Maybe he knew his limitations and his ego would allow to address that problem thats why he cracked it with CP.

In the end, he may have done us a favour.

Please St Kilda, dont get Paul Roos. Lets get someone with an exciting game plan. Bring back the fans and lets get on with winning this flag.

[Teflon]

No and he aint a Docker also. The difference is they know that upfront.

[Moods]

I want the best man for the job. If he hated the Saints previously I dont care as long he is the best.Does he have to embrace us, yes like RL did whilst at the club. And if sacks or trades Saints legends to get the best for the club then do it.

Exactly! Malcolm Blight must have hated the crows but still won them a couple of flags. I mean he immediately traded out their clubs legends without any remorse. What an ar*ehole.

I don't agree with barely one thing you wrote Waltzing Matilda. I have got to laugh heartily about this GT lovefest that seems to be going on lately. I mean GT was never for himself was he? Such a loyal sainter he spoke of 'exiting' Harvey out. By your logic that makes him the biggest prick of all time. Wanted to get rid of BOTH milne and Maguire. Claimed that Milne couldn't play in big games, and instead of improving him was going to take the easy option. Claimed that Maguire ran on train tracks and was also looking to trade him. Took the players pre-season on o/s junkets. The pies have shown us the value of a real pre-season training camp, not some good will tour to Sth Africa. Yep a loyal sainter

Let's get real for a second.

If we are talking about "getting real", then I think you - and all the others who go on here with this crap about Thomas wanting to get rid of Harvey - ought to acknowledge that it was 100% clear from the context that Thomas meant to say "exit him in" (meant to be a cute comment) but it came out wrong. There has never been a shred of evidence that Thomas truly wanted to get rid of Harvey.

And as for wanting to trade Milne and Maguire: why not? What if we'd gotten someone better for either or both of them. Half the posters on this forum seem to want to trade away 3/4 of the team at the end of this season. Lyon hardly used Maguire and ended up trading him away for very little. And, back in 2006, it was quite reasonable to say that Milne certainly hadn't ever delivered in finals, or even away from the Dome.

There are plenty of things to fairly criticise Thomas about, but this is rubbish.

First up - if he didn't want to exit him out - why would he say it? GT may be many things but I don't believe he is a fool, and he knows what he is saying.

As for Milne - I notice you didn't address that in my post. Lyon was the one who got the best out of him NOT GT. Wouldn't that have been a wise move in hindsight - trading Milney

As for Goose. GT made these comments after he got sacked and Goose had that horrific injury. For starters, at that point goose was still playing good footy, and there was no legitimate reason to get rid of him.

With your reasoning why don't we trade Roo, BJ Joey and Dal? I mean we might get someone better than them?

You might be in love with GT era, but as history wears on, HE was the one that had a list of players in their prime. What Lyon would have done with Roo playing like a young colt, a full fwd that was a genuine threat like the G-Train and a genuine hard tackling third tall in Hamill. I also reckon with Lyon coaching a midfield with a FIT Ball, Dal, Harves, Lenny, Bakes etc would have caused carnage. A young Kos not crippled by injuries would also have been handy. A professional and proper fitness regime would have ensure we'd have more 'lucky' years like 09 where we had fewer injuries.

Lyon had a skeleton of that team to work with. Joey and BJ were coming into their prime, and Roo was also in his prime. Most experts said our premiership window was slammed shut after 08 and that we should re-build. Instead we played off in 2 Grand Final and were very competitive in both of them.

[Dr Spaceman]

No and he aint a Docker also. The difference is they know that upfront.

Excellent point tef.

[SainterK]

No and he aint a Docker also. The difference is they know that upfront.

Excellent point tef.

Yeah interesting huh, will they buy in to the 'us and them' when they are aware it's a 'me and me'

[meher baba]

You might be in love with GT era, but as history wears on, HE was the one that had a list of players in their prime. What Lyon would have done with Roo playing like a young colt, a full fwd that was a genuine threat like the G-Train and a genuine hard tackling third tall in Hamill. I also reckon with Lyon coaching a midfield with a FIT Ball, Dal, Harves, Lenny, Bakes etc would have caused carnage. A young Kos not crippled by injuries would also have been handy. A professional and proper fitness regime would have ensure we'd have more 'lucky' years like 09 where we had fewer injuries.

Lyon had a skeleton of that team to work with. Joey and BJ were coming into their prime, and Roo was also in his prime. Most experts said our premiership window was slammed shut after 08 and that we should re-build. Instead we played off in 2 Grand Final and were very competitive in both of them.

I think this is one of those issues that people look at differently (as the old saying goes) depending on whether they went to Oxford or Cambridge.

The crucial point at issue is, and has been for a long time, the state of our playing list when GT left in 2006. There is no doubt that the then Board of our club thought it was pretty good, and thought that GT was failing to get the best out of it and was not using the most modern coaching strategies of the type used by our main competition (then seen principally to be the Sydney Swans).

Many in the media in 2006 said that Lyon had the best playing list ever handed to a first year coach. The 2008 comments were based on how that list had been performing for two years under Lyon, along with the retirements of Harvey, Genrig and Hamill and the long-term injury worries being experienced by Ball and Kosi.

I reckon the best teams we have put on the park in the last 10 years were the 2004 finals team and the 2009 finals team. I reckon that there is very little to choose between them. The team has waxed and waned throughout the decade largely depending on the number of key players who have been missing through injury.

The 2004 finals team had Hamill, Gehrig and Harvey still close to their prime, Ball fully fit, Luke Penny, Andrew Thompson, Stephen Powell and some other players we sure could have done with in recent seasons.

On the other hand, the 2009 finals team had Sam Fisher and BJ at their very best, Lenny and Dal arguably better than they were in 2004, Leigh Montagna (not at AFL standard in 2004), Gardiner, Raph's efforts in the PF (which got us to the GF, where admittedly we weren't great), etc. Not quite as good as the 2004 team IMO, but then I don't reckon the teams we played in the finals in 2009 were anywhere near of the quality of Brisbane, the Swans and Port in 2004.

Probably our big missed opportunity was 2005. If we'd beaten the Swans, I'm 150% certain we'd have beaten the Eagles. I think injuries got us in the end. Others think it was all the fault of GT's coaching (or that GT was somehow personally to blame for all the injuries).

I doubt that you and I (or many other posters on here and I) will ever reach agreement on this. But, when all is said and done, Lyon did a great job with the team but ended up being no more successful than GT in terms of what really counts: premierships. Alas.

[Scollop]

As for Milne - I notice you didn't address that in my post. Lyon was the one who got the best out of him NOT GT. Wouldn't that have been a wise move in hindsight - trading Milney

Unfortunately for Saints fans, we only have a limited amount of finals heroes. GT thought Milney wasn't mentally tough enough to handle pressure situations at that time because he went missing in fianls.

Ross definitely gave Milney lots of opportunities to prove GT wrong. He has been a fantastic part of the team and Milney undeniably helped us win matches off his own boot last year when Roo was injured. He also helped us get over the line on many occasions in the last 2 years with memorable match winning efforts in h&away and in one of the finals in 2010. Milney has been a valuable member of the team structure because he has been durable. Milney started being a valuable contributor to team in the last couple of years by being able to play further up the ground (sigh!! sheeeess all our forwards have to play up the ground don't they?!!). Milney has not only been able to gain strength through years of pre-seasons but also gain experience and confidence in his ability to play at AFL level...

Personally I would have traded Milney at the time GT wanted too as well. In Milnes early years his clangers used to outweigh his good work on far too many occasions. GT gave Jimmy Gwilt his debut game a couple weeks or in the last week of h&away in 2004 and the kid could play and handle the pressure.... Milne was given a second chance by Ross and there is no denying he has been a great contributor and has gained respect. His goal tally over his career is outstanding. There are lots of footballers who don't get an opportunity to prove what they can do.

[BigMart]

Its a professional sport run by professionals.....of which ross was/is one...

Not a club game run by stalwarts/supporters...

His coaching ability was all i ever cared about

[Jacks Back]

I'm not sure I want to watch On the couch tonight. Imagine the love fest with Paul Roos gushing all over the other two about his love interest. *shudder*

Also Footy Classified with GT may be interesting.

And of course Walls on OWAAT.

[Spud]

[/quote]RL is loyal only to himself and admitted as much in his Freo presser. I don't like that quality and I don't believe there's much in it for a team like the Saints. Not asking for a Saints man in the coaching role (Robert Harvey, for instance, would be a big mistake IMHO) -- just someone less cynical and self-serving than RL.

A letter in today's Age says it well: "Pity Freo -- they went to bed with Mark Harvey and woke up with Ayn Rand." If Lyin' ever asks a Freo player to bleed for the club or accept a pay-cut for the good of the team ... well, it's not going to carry much weight, is it?[/quote]

Touche! Next time Freo requests a player yield to their demands for the good of the club he can just trot out Ross's quote