Jason Gram

[BigMart]

I don't take pay packet into account whatsoever when looking at performance.... It has nothing to do with actual output..

If player A is on 600K and plays a 3/10 game
And Player B is on 300k and plays 2/10

I drop player B as a coach.... I would not consider reputation, contract or age... Just form, fitness, match ups and structure

if he is overpaid.... That's the Fault of the list manager

Ray is stiff..... Not sure what is going on there???

[Teflon]

I don't take pay packet into account whatsoever when looking at performance.... It has nothing to do with actual output..

If player A is on 600K and plays a 3/10 game
And Player B is on 300k and plays 2/10

I drop player B as a coach.... I would not consider reputation, contract or age... Just form, fitness, match ups and structure

if he is overpaid.... That's the Fault of the list manager

Ray is stiff..... Not sure what is going on there???

Thats fine if youre prepared to accept 600k players playing at 300k standard........thats not what they got 600 for though is it? I'd suggest the bars a little higher for Riewoldt than Stanley for good reason.

With great dollars....comes great responsibility....(apparently it was said to Spiderman..)

[BigMart]

Players in the senior team.. they should be held to a certain level of expectation for the team.... Not their contracts.
Layers don't ask each other what pay they get as to determine who should play better than who....

If you believe Gram is not earning his money, that's fine... If he's on 600k (very unlikely) then I agree.

If you believe he should be dropped, then I disagree, just statistically he is in the best 18.... Easily

Stats IMO take away subjectivity.... And clearly not just possessions..
Opponent possessions, contested ball, tackles, effective disposals, pressure acts

Eg, did you know Gram laid the third most tackles on Sunday???

[ozrulestrace]

Look I think he was indifferent also

But his opponent had 10 possessions playing fwd in a team that had 67 inside 50's really a small fwd could kick 6 in that situation..... In the second half it was going into their 50 constantly with little pressure.

In perspective

Daniel Wells had 34 touches opposed to Dal (21) and kicked two on the fly and created possibly 5.

Petrie and Hansen kicked 7 between them, giving Gwilt and Blake baths.....

I saw bigger problems..... Not least of all, the lack of structure and system in the third....

so you say drop Dal and keep Gram?

I get the whole "go against the main view in the hope of demonstrating some football insight the rest of us miss" but sometimes it is what it is and this guy has form.

BTW Id have 10 Dal Santo's even if he was beaten yesterday - the guy has turned his game from pure outside to inside and outside ball winning mid who is tagged every week for a reason...he hurts sides with his disposal.

Talking of "structure" and "system" is all very scientific and sounds good - reality is EFFORT starts with personnel....that has to be addressed first as its non negotiable.

The point is Gram is still ahead of about 8 guys in the dropping stakes. I know people want to play young guys but you can only have so many andthey need to be in form. Milera needs to go back and get some form and maybe even Saad even though he probably deserves another week. Im not sure Gram deserves to go unless we pick players on one weeks performance and if that is the case we may not have 22 next week.

To quote your oft said expression P66 "You're kiddin' aren't ya?"
Game after game he squibs the hard contest, turns his back on the incoming ball to so he's not in a position to even enter a marking contest and he stands off and won't get involved in the "hard ball gets" Soft ball gets are more his forte and he needs to go right here, right now.

[Teflon]

Players in the senior team.. they should be held to a certain level of expectation for the team.... Not their contracts.
Layers don't ask each other what pay they get as to determine who should play better than who....

If you believe Gram is not earning his money, that's fine... If he's on 600k (very unlikely) then I agree.

If you believe he should be dropped, then I disagree, just statistically he is in the best 18.... Easily

Stats IMO take away subjectivity.... And clearly not just possessions..
Opponent possessions, contested ball, tackles, effective disposals, pressure acts

Eg, did you know Gram laid the third most tackles on Sunday???

I dont think stats matter after watching Sundays game live.

You need to get out from behind the TV - get to a game and watch the EFFORT live and stop relying on Brian Taylor for your opinion. There are many things you DONT see from TV....

Stats in this pathetic effort meant squat.

Apparently ALL the supporters who are saying the same thing are wrong cause you have some stats from channel 7 to suggest otherwise in a weak effort?

Gram isnt the only team problem - IMHO he simply isnt the future. I could care less to be honest if hes starting 18 tonight or not - anyone at the ground will tell you this side aint challenging for a flag anytime soon. If Jason Gram keeps out a Newnes or even Simpkin he should make way IMO.

Its now about the future - what our best side is "supposed" to be now is irrelevant because our supposed "best" sides cant beat;

Nth
Freo
Richmond
Port.

We are sliding, we need to recognise it and play development football - Gram aint part of that for mine.

[ozrulestrace]

This is not about stats and never has been about Gram.
I was at the game and all the other games whereby he has been next to useless and has avoided any kind of hard arse act during a game.
A player doesn't have to have record stats to be a good player, but he has to play with heart, courage and getting in there amongst the play and try and get the ball out to his teammates. This is not happening with Gram.

[ShanghaiSaint]

gram didn't pop out as our worst on Sunday, but a few of you make good points about him. he's hot and cold for sure. trys then stops so to speak, I notice it abit.

[WellardSaint]

I cant recall the last time Gram tried to beat an opponent in a one-on-one marking contest. Not sure if its lack of confidence, but even Auskick kids have the hunger to try to outmark an opponent.

[MCG-Unit]

Players in the senior team.. they should be held to a certain level of expectation for the team.... Not their contracts.
Layers don't ask each other what pay they get as to determine who should play better than who....

If you believe Gram is not earning his money, that's fine... If he's on 600k (very unlikely) then I agree.
If you believe he should be dropped, then I disagree, just statistically he is in the best 18.... Easily

Stats IMO take away subjectivity.... And clearly not just possessions..
Opponent possessions, contested ball, tackles, effective disposals, pressure acts

Eg, did you know Gram laid the third most tackles on Sunday???

Yes I very much doubt those $ figures put up for Gram - even the lower end of his salary estimates posted on here lately, say $400k, would be back-ended IMO. Seems like the worse he plays, the higher the wage guesses - happened with another player couple of years ago.....

Still he does need to get to more contests, make some body contact, and put his head over the ball sometimes.

[bakes]

Lethal Leigh Matthews (triple premiership winner of the Lions) must have known something when he delisted Gram from Brisbane all those years back...
I must admit that I've never been much of a Gram fan since I like players with aggression in the mould of Hayes and Armitage. Agree that Raph shows more heart and therefore I rank Raph above Gram. However I feel that neither are in our future plans to contest for our next premiership (which realistically with good recruiting by Pelchen and good coaching by Watters, will be in 3 years time from now).

[gringo]

Lethal Leigh Matthews (triple premiership winner of the Lions) must have known something when he delisted Gram from Brisbane all those years back...
I must admit that I've never been much of a Gram fan since I like players with aggression in the mould of Hayes and Armitage. Agree that Raph shows more heart and therefore I rank Raph above Gram. However I feel that neither are in our future plans to contest for our next premiership (which realistically with good recruiting by Pelchen and good coaching by Watters, will be in 3 years time from now).

Lethal ripped shreds off Gram for leaving after they put in all of his development and he was injured most of the time he was there. They apparently wanted him but the go home factor was the thing that made him leave. He has been a good player for many years and has become a favourite whipping boy when we have a loss. Has been good this year so far but put in an ordinary one with a few others.

[Teflon]

Lethal Leigh Matthews (triple premiership winner of the Lions) must have known something when he delisted Gram from Brisbane all those years back...
I must admit that I've never been much of a Gram fan since I like players with aggression in the mould of Hayes and Armitage. Agree that Raph shows more heart and therefore I rank Raph above Gram. However I feel that neither are in our future plans to contest for our next premiership (which realistically with good recruiting by Pelchen and good coaching by Watters, will be in 3 years time from now).

Lethal ripped shreds off Gram for leaving after they put in all of his development and he was injured most of the time he was there. They apparently wanted him but the go home factor was the thing that made him leave. He has been a good player for many years and has become a favourite whipping boy when we have a loss. Has been good this year so far but put in an ordinary one with a few others.

Yes just a poor whipping boy...... Which is why the coach has already this year singled him out for being at the crossroads.... cause the coach just likes a good whipping also...

[gringo]

Lethal Leigh Matthews (triple premiership winner of the Lions) must have known something when he delisted Gram from Brisbane all those years back...
I must admit that I've never been much of a Gram fan since I like players with aggression in the mould of Hayes and Armitage. Agree that Raph shows more heart and therefore I rank Raph above Gram. However I feel that neither are in our future plans to contest for our next premiership (which realistically with good recruiting by Pelchen and good coaching by Watters, will be in 3 years time from now).

Lethal ripped shreds off Gram for leaving after they put in all of his development and he was injured most of the time he was there. They apparently wanted him but the go home factor was the thing that made him leave. He has been a good player for many years and has become a favourite whipping boy when we have a loss. Has been good this year so far but put in an ordinary one with a few others.

Yes just a poor whipping boy...... Which is why the coach has already this year singled him out for being at the crossroads.... cause the coach just likes a good whipping also...

My rule of thumb with posting about players is don't say what you wouldn't say to their face or imagine their family are reading the posts and you might show a little more respect. The coach maybe trying to get more out of Gram, he may be not going hard enough but there may be a reason. He isn't alone and he has given good service in the past. His pay packet doesn't make him a bad guy. Gina Rienhardt is considered a national treasure immune from taxation by some and she earns more in half an hour than Gram earns in a year.

[barks4eva]

Ray should be getting a game ahead of Gram and it's not rocket science

Gram should finish the year at Sandy and be the first player delisted!

Tried to offer him up to another club last year but noone was silly enough to take him!

How he continues to get a game is a damning inditement on Watter's team selection!

The numbnut who signed him up on his current contract of $400,000 or 500,000 should be sacked immediately if they are still around!

Unbelievable, beyond belief, seriously WTF is going on with list management when Gram is on this coin?????????

Do the maths and you'll find the squares are rooted!

[lefty]

The point is Gram is still ahead of about 8 guys in the dropping stakes. I know people want to play young guys but you can only have so many andthey need to be in form. Milera needs to go back and get some form and maybe even Saad even though he probably deserves another week. Im not sure Gram deserves to go unless we pick players on one weeks performance and if that is the case we may not have 22 next week.

No way, Gram makes me angry as.

He's lazy, he didn't go in hard or want the ball, didn't attack, did nothing, and helped North kick a goal and get Fish polaxed at the same time. Watch the reply again. Sick of it time and time again. Few weeks ago against Richmond he did nothing for 3 quarters and decided to play the last quarter.

Not good enough. Ray has to come in for Gram.

[ozrulestrace]

The point is Gram is still ahead of about 8 guys in the dropping stakes. I know people want to play young guys but you can only have so many andthey need to be in form. Milera needs to go back and get some form and maybe even Saad even though he probably deserves another week. Im not sure Gram deserves to go unless we pick players on one weeks performance and if that is the case we may not have 22 next week.

No way, Gram makes me angry as.

He's lazy, he didn't go in hard or want the ball, didn't attack, did nothing, and helped North kick a goal and get Fish polaxed at the same time. Watch the reply again. Sick of it time and time again. Few weeks ago against Richmond he did nothing for 3 quarters and decided to play the last quarter.

Not good enough. Ray has to come in for Gram.

100 percent agree with your analysis of Gram as a player.

[plugger66]

The point is Gram is still ahead of about 8 guys in the dropping stakes. I know people want to play young guys but you can only have so many andthey need to be in form. Milera needs to go back and get some form and maybe even Saad even though he probably deserves another week. Im not sure Gram deserves to go unless we pick players on one weeks performance and if that is the case we may not have 22 next week.

No way, Gram makes me angry as.

He's lazy, he didn't go in hard or want the ball, didn't attack, did nothing, and helped North kick a goal and get Fish polaxed at the same time. Watch the reply again. Sick of it time and time again. Few weeks ago against Richmond he did nothing for 3 quarters and decided to play the last quarter.

Not good enough. Ray has to come in for Gram.

100 percent agree with your analysis of Gram as a player.

So why did and does our 3 coaches play him? Do they want to lose? Maybe they have seen more than some on here.

[SainterK]

You should all be angry at Winmar, not Jason.

He is doing enough to hold his spot.

Nobody is doing anything much to take it.

[8856brother]

Gram is a soft c**k, pee heart, show pony outside player with zero skills!

One of the classiest and more corageous comments I have read on this site. I assume you don't think he is captain material.

[BigMart]

I would kill for Grams footy Bio

To suggest is a poor footballer smacks of ignorance, and I would be embarrassed to say it with so many concrete stats to prove you wrong

Bagging effort from the stands is funny, as its not tangible... So hard to measure.... But I assure you coaches are more aware of effort and intensity than us, with actual statistical measurements and GPS data

From a playing footy perspective, I love it when supporters say.... Stats mean nothing, work rate is what counts
Here's a tip...... Without work rate, you don't win the footy....without ability, you don't win the footy..... Without intensity you don't win the footy....
People at that level, getting 20 touches, 5 tackles and kept their opponents to 10 have not been dominant.... But not terrible either...

A.Fiora had a ?
And it was justified.... A player of his talent averaging 11 touches, does indicate that

[bigred]

Gram should be a good footballer.
He can be a good footballer.

But unfortunately he is the laziest footballer on our list.

He also appears to choose when to put his head over it.
Which is not really good enough.

Not really good enough at all.

[Teflon]

You should all be angry at Winmar, not Jason.

He is doing enough to hold his spot.

Nobody is doing anything much to take it.

Ray?????????????????????????????????????????????

[Teflon]

I would kill for Grams footy Bio

To suggest is a poor footballer smacks of ignorance, and I would be embarrassed to say it with so many concrete stats to prove you wrong

Bagging effort from the stands is funny, as its not tangible... So hard to measure.... But I assure you coaches are more aware of effort and intensity than us, with actual statistical measurements and GPS data

From a playing footy perspective, I love it when supporters say.... Stats mean nothing, work rate is what counts
Here's a tip...... Without work rate, you don't win the footy....[/size]without ability, you don't win the footy..... Without intensity you don't win the footy....
People at that level, getting 20 touches, 5 tackles and kept their opponents to 10 have not been dominant.... But not terrible either...

A.Fiora had a ?
And it was justified.... A player of his talent averaging 11 touches, does indicate that

Absolute FROGSHYTE.

Lets clue you in Scotty Palmer - in TODAYS football stats are cheaper than ever, this is why Scott Watters TODAY does not want Brendon Goddard racking up 30 cheapies as a +1 defender anymore.....sure stats look good BUT Goddard in Scotts words "is now deconditioned" to winning his own football. Stats can be and are often misleading in modern footy. Ive seen Aaron Hamill often influence a game and at the end of it have stuff all on the stats sheet...Id argue Jason Gram has learnt where to run to and how to read the play when the teams going well.......Id also argue he does not work anywhere near hard enough when the team is on the back foot, when it doesnt have the ball and when body on the line in defence is required when under siege aka Sunday. For effort see Raph Clarkes attack on the football.

Id also suggest hes not part of our next Premiership tilt and not crucial to younger player development as long as we keep hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna, Fisher et al..

[Teflon]

My rule of thumb with posting about players is don't say what you wouldn't say to their face or imagine their family are reading the posts and you might show a little more respect. The coach maybe trying to get more out of Gram, he may be not going hard enough but there may be a reason. He isn't alone and he has given good service in the past. His pay packet doesn't make him a bad guy. Gina Rienhardt is considered a national treasure immune from taxation by some and she earns more in half an hour than Gram earns in a year.

Honestly .....its a football forum and I am certain it has zero affect on Gram or his family

There may be a reason Gram doesnt go hard enough? for most of his career?....dont think so...what next a medical condition for attack on the ball??

Your grasping at straws.

What the heck has this forum got to do with Gina Reinhardt???

[mr six o'clock]

Gram should be a good footballer.
He can be a good footballer.

But unfortunately he is the laziest footballer on our list.

He also appears to choose when to put his head over it.
Which is not really good enough.

Not really good enough at all.

Gram did some really smart things on the weekend !
however I just want him to go in hard , he's a powderpuff !
North got 3 goals directly from him not putting his body on the line .
just like when Geary got that head injury a month ago , gram was there and should have got to the ball first but was too gutless , the opposition player got the ball then greay dived in to stop them getting it out and was injured !