The rebuild

[samoht]

withdrawn post.

[Richter]

Great summation Richter, nice work.

RE: Milne

A compromise between those on either side of the argument - keep him on the list for another 1-2 years and gradually fade him out as he's replaced by Saad and Milera. Can really see him becoming exceptional at filling the role of sub, coming on for a quarter and a half to bag a couple of clutch goals. Agreed, he can't retard the growth of a newbie, but it'd be dumb negligence to delist him and not extract the bite that's left in the old yapper, yet...

Thanks hfap.

Milne's a funny one, we can make a comparison between hm and Saad on Sunday's game which tells us where each one is at....

Milne... still got some smarts but has lost some pace off the mark... got 14 disposals... 2 goals 1...
Saad.... getting the ball in some gilt-edged positions, but lacking the ability/nous/experience to slot the finish... 7 disposals... 2 behinds (should have kicked 2 goals)

Season averages

Milne: 32 yo, 13 games, 12.5 disp, 2.1 goals, 2.1 tackles, 2.8 goals contr
Saad: 22 yo, 7 games, 9 disp, 1.6 goals, 3.6 tackles, 2.1 goals contr

Another thing to consider is that it the likes of Minchington and Dunnell may or may be upgraded and push for senior selection next year too.

Whilst I personally would bite the bullet on Milne I think the likely compromise will be that he gets another year on not much more than minimum (i.e. $100k) as this amount of his salary will be eligible under the Vets list. The expectation would be that he would not last out another full season without being overtaken by one of the younger fellas.

[Richter]

I've been as positive as possible about our chances but that was the end of the era for me on Sunday. It really was a great decade of footy. Such a shame we didn't get to hold that cup aloft just once.... sigh...

Yep. Was reminiscing with my mate who I go to the footy with about the '09 and '10 GFs... a shame we did not win... but it was great to be there nonetheless.... We've both become fathers to little boys this year... (within 3 days of each other!).... I'm hoping that by the time our two lads are old enough to come along with their Dads that St Kilda will be back up there in finals contention again.

[sax]

IMHO, We should totally rebuild

A. Delist
1. Sam Crocker 2. Nicholas Winmar, 3. Dean Polo, 4. Beau Wilkes, 5. Brett Peake, 6. Jason Blake (Ret), 7. Stephen Milne (Ret), 8. Daniel Archer (R), 9. Cameron Shenton (R)

B. Tradeables
1. Brendan Goddard (RFA), 2. Jason Gram (RFA), 3. Raphael Clarke (UFA), 4. Leigh Montagna (UFA), 5. Clinton Jones, 6. Farren Ray, 7. Sam Gilbert

C. Upgraded/Retained Rookies
1. Sam Dunnell (U), 2. Tom Curren (U), 3. Jackson Ferguson (U), 4. Warrick Andreoli (Rt), 5. Darren Minchington (Rt), 6. Jordan Staley (Rt)

D. Trade/Draft Targets
1. KP Defender, 2. Ruckman, 3. 1st , 2nd & 3rd round draft picks. We should be able to get between 5 & 8 draft picks depending on trades. We would also have at least 4 rookie picks.

E. Outcome
In summary it does look like we'd be losing a lot. But there is know way we would lose all of this. I'm just saying put them on the table, it is going to be a very strong draft. We will probably keep 1 - 4 of BJ, Joey, Raph, Gilbert & Gram, & it still might be in our best interests to give Blake another year. We would still have a core of Riewoldt, Hayes, Dal Santo, Fisher, Gwilt, McEvoy, Steven, Armitage, Dempster & 1 - 4 of BJ, Joey, Raph, Gilbert & Gram. This would still keep us competitive without bottoming out and give us a fresh look.

Just my opinion.

[StevieSaint]

I think that we will probably not be in the top 8 again for another 5-7 years and even longer if we muck up our drafting. Now if we look at teams like Collingwood 02-03 and compare to 2010 I want to see the differences in the teams, the age of the players and the quality of the players. I also want to look at West Coast and Sydney from 05-06 and the age and quality of the players and compare to their current squads. Because if you look at our current list and we want to be a FORCE again within that 5 to 7 year period I am thinking we are going to have to draft some pretty good players in the next 2-3 years to replace the likes of these guys who will be gone in that 5-7 year period…

Rooey-Gone
Milne-Gone
Kosi-Gone
Blake-Gone
Gram-Gone
Lenny-Gone
Fisher-Gone
Dal-33-35 y.o by then-Gone
Monty-33-35 y.o by then-Gone
Gilbert-31-33 y.o by then-Old..probably gone
Gwilt-31-33 y.o by then-Old-possibly still in the side
Goddard-32-34 y.o by then-Old-still in side if with us-Upside-Hopefully a leader by then, more reserved or the other option being Gone at the end of this year for draft picks

Steven-27-29 by then…Gun
Armo-29-31 by then…Decent player?
McEvoy- 27-29 by then-Gun around the around…average in ruck
Milera-29-31…decent player?
Saad-27-29? Goal sneak, no Milney.
Siposs- 24-26 by then…Gun?
Stanley-26-28 by then..Who knows? Average set shot at the moment, injury prone.

Then you have Ledger, Cripps and Ross who you think would be in the team. Bottom line is we have some big bloody shoes to fill and if we f### it up then we would be looking at even longer, possibly 10+ years to become a FORCE again. Anyway enough of me rambling.

[Con Gorozidis]

Some people on here would still have the Doc in the side given half a chance.

[Richter]

IMHO, We should totally rebuild

.............

E. Outcome
In summary it does look like we'd be losing a lot. But there is know way we would lose all of this. I'm just saying put them on the table, it is going to be a very strong draft. We will probably keep 1 - 4 of BJ, Joey, Raph, Gilbert & Gram, & it still might be in our best interests to give Blake another year. We would still have a core of Riewoldt, Hayes, Dal Santo, Fisher, Gwilt, McEvoy, Steven, Armitage, Dempster & 1 - 4 of BJ, Joey, Raph, Gilbert & Gram. This would still keep us competitive without bottoming out and give us a fresh look.

Just my opinion.

Damn sensible opinion too sax.

I disagreee on a few individuals, such as Raph and Gilbert, who I think we will keep. My point about Dal potentially being on the table is because he may wish to go, and the fact that he is under contract means that we could get more for him this year than next when he becomes a free agent.

Second thing to say is that the rebuild does not need to be done over one delist/trade/draft period... but is best done over probably 3 or 4... i.e. our current team is based around the core of players from 1999-2002.

[Verdun66]

Read somewhere on Big Footy that we are interested in Koby Stevens from West Coast. Anyone heard that? What sort of a player is he?

[Verdun66]

There will be quite a lot of GWS and Suns guys moved on in a the next couple of years. Not necessarily because they are no good, just because they stockpiled talent of about the same age. Probably got a few too many similar type players, and can't develop all of them. Must be some opportunities there.

Sheedy certainly owes us one in recommending Lovett, and SOS is there at GWS. Might be able to have a decent conversation.

[Verdun66]

Some people on here would still have the Doc in the side given half a chance.

I would. Now where is that time machine......? Harold Bray....he would be handy too....

[Dr Spaceman]

Some people on here would still have the Doc in the side given half a chance.

Don't drag me into this Con

[Richter]

An interesting article in the age today, by Michael Gleeson...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... 21dcy.html

Goddard has had two heavy tags this year, the first against Melbourne, the second on Sunday by North Melbourne and the effects on his game were pronounced

St Kilda's problem is that with its list in the state it is now, it needs Goddard to be the marquee player around whom it rebuilds, but he does not look likely to be that player.

Their marquee player was Nick Riewoldt but his body cannot carry the burden now. Lenny Hayes is 32 so he is out. Nick Dal Santo is 28, Leigh Montagna is almost 29 and they are both a rung below the level demanded for the marquee bracket.

At 27, out of contract and a restricted free agent at year's end perhaps a change of clubs could best serve Goddard and the Saints. In a contention side that could afford him, Goddard would add versatility.

St Kilda at the moment is a club in transition. Arguably at the moment its most important structural player is Rhys Stanley.

I know, it sounds silly, but it is true. When Stanley plays, the forwards play better, the ruck performs better, he can run deep to defence. He is as important a player as there is there at the moment perhaps outside of Hayes in the middle.

St Kilda can yet make the eight, and perhaps it will, but the list in its current state will not carry it to a flag. It is acutely aware of that internally and change will be significant at the end of the year. As a result the second half of the year won't be a youth policy per se but you suspect more time will be invested in establishing if the younger players can make it.

Are they better served by a Clint Jones who is diligent but a poor kick best served playing a tagging role each week? Or are they better to look at Jack Newnes, Tom Ledger or Daniel Markworth?

To an extent these types of decisions have already been happening. Brett Peake, Dean Polo and Farren Ray for instance have all found senior games very hard to come by.

[Scollop]

IMHO, We should totally rebuild

A. Delist
1. Sam Crocker 2. Nicholas Winmar, 3. Dean Polo, 4. Beau Wilkes, 5. Brett Peake, 6. Jason Blake (Ret), 7. Stephen Milne (Ret), 8. Daniel Archer (R), 9. Cameron Shenton (R).

What is it with people knocking Winmar when he hasnt played consecutive games yet? What are his deficiencies? Why do you think he can't play with the senior side? Why can't he be like Hill From West Coast or Simpson from Carlton? Unless this kid gets injured too often and can't stand up at all, then I want to see him play at least three games before the club delists him...otherwise what was the point of re-signing him and what was the point in investing time and money on him?

I've got a feeling that the kid can play, and it's up to the development coaches to build his confidence (and his strength perhaps) and get him out there contributing and competing for a spot. Maybe he just needs the challenge. I only saw him for a few minutes against West Coast last year and saw him in a game for Sandy this year, and I see potential.

The problem with not playing young blokes is that the club falls behind so far that you are faced with what we have now at St Kilda. I suppose it's a Catch22 situation. If the excoach had invested time and energy developing new players, would he have got the best out of his favoured group and his regular senior players that he backed to the hilt? Could he have motivated and spread his time and his energy on integrating younger blokes if that meant upsetting the balance . Also i reckon the gameplan was based on what he knew and believed, and not in anyway based on the list. His senior players became his little clique and the mentality of the bubble and everything pertaining to it could have meant new members were hard to integrate and that meant younger blokes were not welcome!!!

[BringBackMadDog]

IMHO, We should totally rebuild

A. Delist
1. Sam Crocker 2. Nicholas Winmar, 3. Dean Polo, 4. Beau Wilkes, 5. Brett Peake, 6. Jason Blake (Ret), 7. Stephen Milne (Ret), 8. Daniel Archer (R), 9. Cameron Shenton (R).

What is it with people knocking Winmar when he hasnt played consecutive games yet? What are his deficiencies? Why do you think he can't play with the senior side? Why can't he be like Hill From West Coast or Simpson from Carlton? Unless this kid gets injured too often and can't stand up at all, then I want to see him play at least three games before the club delists him...otherwise what was the point of re-signing him and what was the point in investing time and money on him?

I've got a feeling that the kid can play, and it's up to the development coaches to build his confidence (and his strength perhaps) and get him out there contributing and competing for a spot. Maybe he just needs the challenge. I only saw him for a few minutes against West Coast last year and saw him in a game for Sandy this year, and I see potential.

The problem with not playing young blokes is that the club falls behind so far that you are faced with what we have now at St Kilda. I suppose it's a Catch22 situation. If the excoach had invested time and energy developing new players, would he have got the best out of his favoured group and his regular senior players that he backed to the hilt? Could he have motivated and spread his time and his energy on integrating younger blokes if that meant upsetting the balance . Also i reckon the gameplan was based on what he knew and believed, and not in anyway based on the list. His senior players became his little clique and the mentality of the bubble and everything pertaining to it could have meant new members were hard to integrate and that meant younger blokes were not welcome!!!

The problem with Winmar seems to be his lack of intensity, he moves well, kicks long, but always seems to be going at half rat power

[ShakenNotStirred]

Bring back Rix. Problem solved.

[vacuous space]

I disagree vs, playing young players ... is exactly what teams need to do when they in are a rebuilding/development phase.

Playing a kid above his level can do more harm than good. I would much rather have a kid dominating a second tier league than fumbling at the top level. Cripps was clearly a long way off it earlier in the year. Newnes is closer, but he's not in our best team. If we get to the point where we're out of finals contention, then some kids will get a game or two as older players are sent off for early sugeries or early retirement. We may not get to that point. Right now we're very much in the mix and so we're picking our best 22 each week.

If we do get to the point of rebuilding, I would hope that we don't just throw kids out there. Competition breeds success and I'd much rather see our team filled with Wilkes types from the second tier than gifting games to kids who haven't earned it.