We are being left behind!

[Life Long Saint]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl ... 6435138339

It would cost the Dogs about $400,000 to join the likes of Collingwood, Geelong and the Bombers in fielding their own reserves team.

Sponsor raffle to raise $400,000?
400 tickets @ $1000 each? Winner gets company on jumper.
Get Moorabbin council back on board and play VFL games at Moorabbin.

[stkildathunda]

Think you will find that from 2014 we will most likely be standalone aswell, just gut feel from the recent events happening in the alignment.

[Life Long Saint]

just gut feel from the recent events happening in the alignment.

Like what?

[stkildathunda]

just gut feel from the recent events happening in the alignment.

Like what?

Players walking out on club cos even though they are dominating in the Dev Squad they are continually overlooked by blokes like Archer, Crocker, Shenton, Winmar who average about 6 touches each. Which goes against absolutely everything Pelchan and Watters said at start of year that seniors would be picked on form and didnt matter what club u were from. Its almost back at the stage it was under RL.

[Life Long Saint]

Well...Let's hope we can get our own team going then.

[stkildathunda]

Well...Let's hope we can get our own team going then.

The thing is though we still need to top up our VFL team with VFL players and im pretty sure we wouldnt have a Development Squad team which then doesnt give the seniors any competition for spots and means they dont really need to push themselves to perform to stay in side. Not to mention half our list would get smashed in VFL as they just arent upto it or big enough. Need the mature bodies around them to help them out.

Im not actually sold that going standalone is all its talked up to be. Remember we are currently playing the Saints style of gameplan as the coaches are actually employed by Saints.

[Sainterman]

just gut feel from the recent events happening in the alignment.

Like what?

Players walking out on club cos even though they are dominating in the Dev Squad they are continually overlooked by blokes like Archer, Crocker, Shenton, Winmar who average about 6 touches each. Which goes against absolutely everything Pelchan and Watters said at start of year that seniors would be picked on form and didnt matter what club u were from. Its almost back at the stage it was under RL.

What players have walked out on the club for this reason? I have not heard of any examples that support this...?

[Dr Spaceman]

Players walking out on club cos even though they are dominating in the Dev Squad they are continually overlooked by blokes like Archer, Crocker, Shenton, Winmar who average about 6 touches each. Which goes against absolutely everything Pelchan and Watters said at start of year that seniors would be picked on form and didnt matter what club u were from. Its almost back at the stage it was under RL.

What players have walked out on the club for this reason? I have not heard of any examples that support this...?

I believe Michael Lourey is one - apparently not impressed with being stuck down in the Development Squad.

[Life Long Saint]

Well...Let's hope we can get our own team going then.

The thing is though we still need to top up our VFL team with VFL players and im pretty sure we wouldnt have a Development Squad team which then doesnt give the seniors any competition for spots and means they dont really need to push themselves to perform to stay in side. Not to mention half our list would get smashed in VFL as they just arent upto it or big enough. Need the mature bodies around them to help them out.

Im not actually sold that going standalone is all its talked up to be. Remember we are currently playing the Saints style of gameplan as the coaches are actually employed by Saints.

Hang on...We're an AFL team! Surely, the competition for spots would be to get into the AFL team.
The focus would be do your role as we want in the VFL and you will be considered for AFL.
If the players are happy to play VFL footy then, mentally, they're not AFL material.

If you don't think that it is worth it then consider that the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010 and 2011 premiership teams all have their own stand-alone reserves team in a state level league. Only West Coast and Hawthorn don't have that arrangement...And West Coast is pushing for it.

[stkildathunda]

Most those years the losing Grand Finalist didn't have standalone team, so are you saying that's the difference between winning and losing? If we won 09/10 as aligned club would people still be saying its best thing.

For development you need the pressure from below. What will they learn from getting 6 touches game and getting smashed by 100 points week in week out? Half our kids arent even VFL senior standard.

[White Winmar]

Players walking out on club cos even though they are dominating in the Dev Squad they are continually overlooked by blokes like Archer, Crocker, Shenton, Winmar who average about 6 touches each. Which goes against absolutely everything Pelchan and Watters said at start of year that seniors would be picked on form and didnt matter what club u were from. Its almost back at the stage it was under RL.

What players have walked out on the club for this reason? I have not heard of any examples that support this...?

I believe Michael Lourey is one - apparently not impressed with being stuck down in the Development Squad.

Well that's one player (unconfirmed). Gee, a player who might be disgruntled at not getting a game where he thinks he should be. Who would have thought that was possible at a football club? May as well shut the whole thing down.

[bergholt]

Hang on...We're an AFL team! Surely, the competition for spots would be to get into the AFL team.
The focus would be do your role as we want in the VFL and you will be considered for AFL.
If the players are happy to play VFL footy then, mentally, they're not AFL material.

what about the non-afl listed players? every year most of the best sandy players are not saints players - gallagher, lourey, magner, irving, sautner; cockie, cook, sikora this year. they're the ones who make the side competitive. pretty hard to convince them to come play for an uncompetitive rabble filled with raw 18 year olds being developed.

[stkildathunda]

What players have walked out on the club for this reason? I have not heard of any examples that support this...?

I believe Michael Lourey is one - apparently not impressed with being stuck down in the Development Squad.

Well that's one player (unconfirmed). Gee, a player who might be disgruntled at not getting a game where he thinks he should be. Who would have thought that was possible at a football club? May as well shut the whole thing down.

No it's not unconfirmed, its well and truly confirmed. There is at least one more and possibly few more in coming weeks. (& no I'm not posting names as have been asked not to by club)

BTW Lourey has been Zebs leading goalkeeper for couple years. Been kicking bag in Dev Squad nearly every week yet hack like Archer gets game ahead of him. Don't blame him for walking out.

[Life Long Saint]

Most those years the losing Grand Finalist didn't have standalone team, so are you saying that's the difference between winning and losing? If we won 09/10 as aligned club would people still be saying its best thing.

For development you need the pressure from below. What will they learn from getting 6 touches game and getting smashed by 100 points week in week out? Half our kids arent even VFL senior standard.

What I am saying is that having your own state league team increases your chances to not only contest but to win a flag.

The clear strength of doing this is that it allows players to come out of VFL into AFL and do the role required.
Collingwood, Geelong and now Sydney have all demonstrated the importance of bringing in VFL players to slot seamlessly into the AFL team.

I disagree on the pressure from below angle you're taking...Maybe I'm more of a carrot person. The stick would be not getting into the senior team and possible de-listing at the end of the year. But the carrot must be focus of the player to want to improve...Remember that these guys are professional AFL players.

[stkildathunda]

Do you think it's working this year when players are coming into Saints side? Aw they having impact? I just think its good to have pressure on every /spot/team as it pushes players to be on their game and not slack off.

[Life Long Saint]

Hard to say as our good first year players are the mature age recruits. I will say that Saad, Dunell and to a lesser extent Milera look like they belong.
Simpkin does too but he's had a few years in the system prior to becoming a regular player.

[defacto]

sounds like the sides slide in form from earlier this year has helped increase the tension back to where it was at the end of last year. plus gifting winmar, crocker, archer, shenton games in the senior squad isnt going to help. you could add the two new first year ruckmen to that list as well.

the reality is players should not be given games in the senior squad unless they deserve them.

the wafl clubs do not have this problem because the eagles and dockers players are equally distributed amongst all of the wafl clubs. there by spreading the load. the problem they do have is autonomy over their players and the game styles they learn.

[Animal Enclosure]

Having a stand alone VFL side is vitally important in my book.

As for being able to attract mature VFL players to fill out the side & make it competitive, what better incentive is there for these blokes than being able to show their talent to an AFL club (especially with more focus now on mature age recruits). What's the go with the VFL salary cap too? Those blokes wouldn't come under the AFL cap so maybe throwing some decent coin there way might convince them!

The development of players is where the rich clubs get all the benefits... the filth have been able to fast track so many young blokes thanks to having their VFL coaching staff (Lockyer & co) run the same game plan, play kids in roles that the senior coach envisages them filling down the track & challenge blokes that are dropped to work on what they need to.

Tom Lynch was a perfect example of how our alignment with Sandy was flawed. He was recruited as a 3rd tall forward... played most of his VFL footy at CHB. Was then played across HF when promoted & struggled. This wasn't Sandy's fault as they wanted to win & developing St Kilda's young players was not priority #1.

That is why most of the stand alone VFL sides struggle... winning is not the only objective.

Hopefully St Kilda will follow a few of the other clubs get this done.

[shmic_s]

I believe Michael Lourey is one - apparently not impressed with being stuck down in the Development Squad.

Well that's one player (unconfirmed). Gee, a player who might be disgruntled at not getting a game where he thinks he should be. Who would have thought that was possible at a football club? May as well shut the whole thing down.

No it's not unconfirmed, its well and truly confirmed. There is at least one more and possibly few more in coming weeks. (& no I'm not posting names as have been asked not to by club)

BTW Lourey has been Zebs leading goalkeeper for couple years. Been kicking bag in Dev Squad nearly every week yet hack like Archer gets game ahead of him. Don't blame him for walking out.

Found this article that mentions something along similar lines:

ST KILDA / SANDRINGHAM
Relations improved this year when Chris Pelchen joined the Saints but there are still problems. The Saints hate Sandy’s postage stamp-sized home ground and a number of VFL-listed players are set to walk out due to lack of opportunities.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/how-vf ... 6435544642

[saintspremiers]

If we can't have a standalone side then Sandy needs to be relocated to Moorabbin for the 2013 season.

We dictate Sandy, not them.

[saintbrat]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl ... 6435138339

It would cost the Dogs about $400,000 to join the likes of Collingwood, Geelong and the Bombers in fielding their own reserves team.

Sponsor raffle to raise $400,000?
400 tickets @ $1000 each? Winner gets company on jumper.
Get Moorabbin council back on board and play VFL games at Moorabbin.

given that the saints have ahd to do a secodn ring around for selling of raffle tickets- can really see that working-

[saintbrat]

If we can't have a standalone side then Sandy needs to be relocated to Moorabbin for the 2013 season.

We dictate Sandy, not them.

Incorrect it should be a partnership---- as the situation is at present-
If it was a take over ala=Box hill and Bullants then maybe you dictate..

but definitely not our dictating to them..
as previously stated- we do have game style control due to coaching staff being there for both.

and the Sandy Coach being very experienced and A friend of Scott's and with Scott's method of inclusion being differant to the situation from 2010 - means it should be working better than it did in that year.

[plugger66]

Well...Let's hope we can get our own team going then.

The thing is though we still need to top up our VFL team with VFL players and im pretty sure we wouldnt have a Development Squad team which then doesnt give the seniors any competition for spots and means they dont really need to push themselves to perform to stay in side. Not to mention half our list would get smashed in VFL as they just arent upto it or big enough. Need the mature bodies around them to help them out.

Im not actually sold that going standalone is all its talked up to be. Remember we are currently playing the Saints style of gameplan as the coaches are actually employed by Saints.

Its not about winning though. Its making sure both sides play exactly the same way so when a player is promoted he knows what he has to do. I couldnt a rats if we didnt win a game in the seconds. The pies are pretty ordinary but it doesnt seem to hurt the firsts. We must do it but we dont have a ground to play at. Moorabbin,even if the council and residents agreed, would cost a few million to get back into condition to have proper games there. Seaford is no good at all.

[saintbrat]

this may be of interest to some
http://www.sen.com.au/audioplayer/Audio ... liams/5360
How the AFL Vic are seeing things.

Grant Williams, CEO of Football Victoria, was good enough to chat to Harf about the future of the VFL.


from discussion heard the other night it would seem that one model would be for there to be around 12-15 teams with each AFL team having a VFL team and then stand alone teams as well.

anything that gets away from 5 byes per year would be nice..

[White Winmar]

If Lourey is openly stating his dissatisfaction, and the selectors and match committee at the Zebs feel he does not deserve a place in the seniors, then I thought the best thing to do is to wish him all the best, show him the door and let him try his luck elsewhere. Fair dinkum, what a nothing story. Or should we let the players themselves pick the team?