Apparently we have reduced the offer to BJ

[markp]

How are we like Geelong, Hawks or Pies though?

They all have premiership medallions, makes it an easier sell I would of thought.

We're either not in contention and have the money to spend, or in contention and need Brendon.

Maybe we should just drink the cool-aid like everyone else?

I haven't taken much notice of this till now, honestly thought it was all crap and we'd re-sign him.

I'll say again, diabolical if true.

[dragit]

How are we like Geelong, Hawks or Pies though?

They all have premiership medallions, makes it an easier sell I would of thought.

We're either not in contention and have the money to spend, or in contention and need Brendon.

Perhaps if we'd got our contracts guidelines together 10 years ago, we might not have had such a disparity in our list.

8 superstars, 8 b graders & 6 Plonkers didnt win us a GF

If those 8 superstars had been on 'Geelong' wages we might have been able to afford 16 very solid B graders, we probably would have won 2-3 flags.

It has to start now.

[markp]

Oh ok, it's not a f*** up.

Just like Lyon wasn't a f*** up.

But I guess we cant really accuse BJ of being selfish and greedy... (or can we?)

So it's all part of a cunning and bold plan.

That's reassuring.

Here I was thinking we may be letting a club champion walk away for the sake of an extra (fourth) year and possibly another $50k a year on a contract.

You don't think 1.9 mil for 3 years was a good offer from the club?

Not sure what else you expect them to do, if he is going to sook and test out how much we love him by demanding an extra year then he has failed.

Beams just signed a 3 year deal worth around 1 mil and at the moment he is miles in front of BJ plus has another 7-8 years in him. Of course he could also get twice as much elsewhere too.

The figure I'm basing my comments on is the $475k x 3.

1.9 million over 3 he'd be nuts not to take... but it seems the current consensus is that's not accurate.

[Bardon Saint]

How are we like Geelong, Hawks or Pies though?

They all have premiership medallions, makes it an easier sell I would of thought.

We're either not in contention and have the money to spend, or in contention and need Brendon.

Do we spend big money on stars and then have a weak bottom 6? I believe that we were criticised for this in 2009/10. We require 22 players to be of a very good to great standard.

[Bardon Saint]

How are we like Geelong, Hawks or Pies though?

They all have premiership medallions, makes it an easier sell I would of thought.

We're either not in contention and have the money to spend, or in contention and need Brendon.

Perhaps if we'd got our contracts guidelines together 10 years ago, we might not have had such a disparity in our list.

8 superstars, 8 b graders & 6 Plonkers didnt win us a GF

If those 8 superstars had been on 'Geelong' wages we might have been able to afford 16 very solid B graders, we probably would have won 2-3 flags.

It has to start now.

Same point, you typed faster than me Fully agree. This is the way, let's learn from our failures.

[markp]

So we cut off our nose to spite our face and punish BJ because we overpaid the likes of kosi and gram.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

[dragit]

So we cut off our nose to spite our face and punish BJ because we overpaid the likes of kosi and gram.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

Yep, or we fold everytime Essendon or Carlton are willing to pay our players more than we are. The players have to be willing to stick together for less money like Geelong have, Ablett is twice the player BJ will ever be, the cats let him go for ridiculous money, otherwise every other dick would have pointed to him when asking for a new deal, just like BJ would be to Roo at the moment.

[Dave McNamara]

Perhaps if we'd got our contracts guidelines together 10 years ago, we might not have had such a disparity in our list.

8 superstars, 8 b graders & 6 Plonkers didnt win us a GF

If those 8 superstars had been on 'Geelong' wages we might have been able to afford 16 very solid B graders, we probably would have won 2-3 flags.

It has to start now.

... and it's not improbable that we'd playing off against one of those disgusting birds for another one on Saturday...

Dragit I reckon that you've spelt out sooooooo succinctly the cold hard maths of how it (sadly) was for us in 2009-10, compared to how it could/should have been...

Yes... it has to start now!

Hopefully the good Doctor can pick you up on his way through to Seaford. You should be in on those negotiations too I reckon.

[SainterK]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

[SainterK]

So we cut off our nose to spite our face and punish BJ because we overpaid the likes of kosi and gram.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

Yep, or we fold everytime Essendon or Carlton are willing to pay our players more than we are. The players have to be willing to stick together for less money like Geelong have, Ablett is twice the player BJ will ever be, the cats let him go for ridiculous money, otherwise every other dick would have pointed to him when asking for a new deal, just like BJ would be to Roo at the moment.

What about if the Saints target someone and pay them more than that club is?

What happens to the system then, what happens to the players on our list who have taken less?

Cats, Hawks etc will find themselves back to paying overs soon enough, when this period of contention is over and it's going to take more than 'for the love of poo and wee'

I don't think it's that simple.

[Dr Spaceman]

So we cut off our nose to spite our face and punish BJ because we overpaid the likes of kosi and gram.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

The problem is markp, if we accept we overpaid some players in the past, and if we accept we need to get things onto a more level and sustainable playing field, then it has to start somewhere. If not now with BJ then next year with another great, loved Saint or the year after with with another great, loved Saint.

Fact is we had a dip at a couple of flags and we fell short. At the moment we're just not good enough. The way our cap is now we can't bring in a Jolly or a Burgoyne to help us challenge again. In recent years we've even been blocked from participating in the Pre Season Draft. We have even struggled to find the relatively modest dollars required to upgrade a rookie. Our flexibility has been severely restricted.

Things have to change, and we have to start somewhere. BJ may just be a victim of bad timing. But if we cave in now we're gonna be stuffed into the future, particularly now FA is a permanent part of the landscape.

[SMS]

From bigfooty today...

BrianSpeaking said: ↑
This is a call to arms for all real Saints who want him to stay. These are facts as if 2 mins ago, he has been offered $475K per year by the Saints for 3 years, that is a $17,000 pay rise FFS.
If you are a member get these facts out in the marketplace, the reported $1.9 million dollar offer is bulls***.
Rooey also went to the Saints with a proposed 2 year contract extension, they laughed at him and said no one over 30 gets more than one year at a time.
I pay these Saints management peoples wages, as do you as fellow members, lets do something about it before its too late.
BJ was dirty when Bally left, but now know how he felt, not good!!!!!
He will take 4 years at 600 K, the club are screwing him.
What an unprofessional bunch of morons, no wonder Ross left.

This us what i was talking about

Saints management is a joke. We wont see finals for 10 years.
Goddard gone!
475k a year is an insult.

No wonder he looked angry all year i reckon he decided to leave april this year!

[Buckets]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

Cloke is a KPP...
Goddard is....ummm not a KPP. Last time I checked.

[saintbrat]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

and some are saying the Cloke's have done the pies over.....

[Dave McNamara]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

Really good point K. I haven't heard what he's on, but probably huge money.

However there are a few differences in my opinion...

Cloke is a couple of years younger.
Cloke is a key power forward. (Hence commands more than a utility.)
Cloke, especially since regaining form, is arguably the premier key power forward in the league, and if not, certainly one of the top couple.
Arguably the Skunks have paid overs for him, which it seems they were trying to minimise doing(?), but if so, they've been able to pay it coz their other topliners (such as Pendlebury, Swan, Daisy, and as of this season, arguably Kim Duthie's 'mate') are not on much more than their equivalents at the Hillbillies.

So although it may sound a bit twisted, ironically, because the Skunks have established a Hillbilly-esque salary scale, and have been able to have the players buy in, they have been able to pay (possibly) overs for Cloke and keep everyone else.

At Dawkland, Buddy is on very good money, but apparently no where near as much as what one would expect from a player of his standing (hype?) in the game. And people would be amazed how little Baby Heuy is on down at the Hillbillies.

And don't forget K, we also need to have space in our cap not only to actually be able to go out and chase players, but we have to be able to keep all these blokes who are now going to command higher wages since you have ignited their careers.

[Old Mate]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

and some are saying the Cloke's have done the pies over.....

4m over 5 years suggests that their list will be hampered for some time.

The Saints have to stick to their guns with contract negotiations.

Whilst I'm surprised in the reported contract offer to Goddard, the more I think about it the more I think it is reasonable.

[SainterK]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

Cloke is a KPP...
Goddard is....ummm not a KPP. Last time I checked.

I am pointing out that all clubs bend the 'everyone only gets so much' rule when they have to.

I still reckon if BJ leaves, he will land at the Pies.

Ben Johnson will probably retire, they still miss Leon's kicking skills from defence, Wellingham/Goldsack look gone....guys like Wood delisted....have quite a lot of guys they could juggle into the veterans like Swan.

[SainterK]

Cloke, especially since regaining form, is arguably the premier key power forward in the league, and if not, certainly one of the top couple.

Return to form Dave?

I reckon even BJ would of kicked bags on Schoenmakers & Hooker given the opportunity.

[Buckets]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

Cloke is a KPP...
Goddard is....ummm not a KPP. Last time I checked.

I am pointing out that all clubs bend the 'everyone only gets so much' rule when they have to.

I still reckon if BJ leaves, he will land at the Pies.

Ben Johnson will probably retire, they still miss Leon's kicking skills from defence, Wellingham/Goldsack look gone....guys like Wood delisted....have quite a lot of guys they could juggle into the veterans like Swan.

But see you just proved the point of why you don't bend too much. Pies lose at least 2 premiership players bc of the Cloke deal.

Though the club would see more upside to paying overs for a KPP rather than a utility.

Pies will need a ruck man in the coming years will Clokes big money hurt them in doing that?

[maverick]

So we cut off our nose to spite our face and punish BJ because we overpaid the likes of kosi and gram.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

The problem is markp, if we accept we overpaid some players in the past, and if we accept we need to get things onto a more level and sustainable playing field, then it has to start somewhere. If not now with BJ then next year with another great, loved Saint or the year after with with another great, loved Saint.

Fact is we had a dip at a couple of flags and we fell short. At the moment we're just not good enough. The way our cap is now we can't bring in a Jolly or a Burgoyne to help us challenge again. In recent years we've even been blocked from participating in the Pre Season Draft. We have even struggled to find the relatively modest dollars required to upgrade a rookie. Our flexibility has been severely restricted.

Things have to change, and we have to start somewhere. BJ may just be a victim of bad timing. But if we cave in now we're gonna be stuffed into the future, particularly now FA is a permanent part of the landscape.

Why, who else are we going to pay?
This is an error if correct.

[skeptic]

I doubt the club (which seems to have become a single entity now) laughed at Roo

[FQF]

So I assume Cloke is on 475 X 5?

Really good point K. I haven't heard what he's on, but probably huge money.

However there are a few differences in my opinion...

Cloke is a couple of years younger.
Cloke is a key power forward. (Hence commands more than a utility.)
Cloke, especially since regaining form, is arguably the premier key power forward in the league, and if not, certainly one of the top couple.
Arguably the Skunks have paid overs for him, which it seems they were trying to minimise doing(?), but if so, they've been able to pay it coz their other topliners (such as Pendlebury, Swan, Daisy, and as of this season, arguably Kim Duthie's 'mate') are not on much more than their equivalents at the Hillbillies.

So although it may sound a bit twisted, ironically, because the Skunks have established a Hillbilly-esque salary scale, and have been able to have the players buy in, they have been able to pay (possibly) overs for Cloke and keep everyone else.

At Dawkland, Buddy is on very good money, but apparently no where near as much as what one would expect from a player of his standing (hype?) in the game. And people would be amazed how little Baby Heuy is on down at the Hillbillies.

And don't forget K, we also need to have space in our cap not only to actually be able to go out and chase players, but we have to be able to keep all these blokes who are now going to command higher wages since you have ignited their careers.

Your posts would be significantly more valuable if you didn't insist on using a nickname at every single opportunity and expect everyone to understand your own language.

[saintsRrising]

Cloke, especially since regaining form, is arguably the premier key power forward in the league, and if not, certainly one of the top couple.

Return to form Dave?

I reckon even BJ would of kicked bags on Schoenmakers & Hooker given the opportunity.

Sorry, BJ has played forward often and has rarely done much when he has.

[Dr Spaceman]

So we cut off our nose to spite our face and punish BJ because we overpaid the likes of kosi and gram.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

The problem is markp, if we accept we overpaid some players in the past, and if we accept we need to get things onto a more level and sustainable playing field, then it has to start somewhere. If not now with BJ then next year with another great, loved Saint or the year after with with another great, loved Saint.

Fact is we had a dip at a couple of flags and we fell short. At the moment we're just not good enough. The way our cap is now we can't bring in a Jolly or a Burgoyne to help us challenge again. In recent years we've even been blocked from participating in the Pre Season Draft. We have even struggled to find the relatively modest dollars required to upgrade a rookie. Our flexibility has been severely restricted.

Things have to change, and we have to start somewhere. BJ may just be a victim of bad timing. But if we cave in now we're gonna be stuffed into the future, particularly now FA is a permanent part of the landscape.

Why, who else are we going to pay?

Don't understand. I presume we're going to have to keep paying our players into the future.

At some stage we have to rein in the expectations. Not all our good/great players can get paid $600,000+ pa if other clubs are paying their good/great players less.

[Dave McNamara]

Cloke, especially since regaining form, is arguably the premier key power forward in the league, and if not, certainly one of the top couple.

Return to form Dave?

I reckon even BJ would of kicked bags on Schoenmakers & Hooker given the opportunity.

You may well be right on both those points K. If so, then the Skunks may well have paid overs and then some.

What about if the Saints target someone and pay them more than that club is?

What happens to the system then, what happens to the players on our list who have taken less?

Another good point.

I think though that we don't necessarily have to chase the Clokes or Gabletts. Hillbillies didn't, haven't brought in any 'name' player since Ottens, who at that stage was arguably largely an unfulfilled talent anyway.

But what we could do is chase the likes of a Caddy. For the last several seasons our cap has been so tight we haven't been able to do that sorta' thing, and hence no doubt missed a few good opportunities. Dragit pointed out that we even struggled to find the cap space to upgrade rookies at times.

Another point is that the Dawks freed up cap space and gained more early draft picks (to go with the ones they tanked for), and rebuilt their list in the early to mid 2000s... by also offloading the likes of Nathan Thompson, Jade 'the spade' Rawlings, Jonathon Hay and a couple of others who's names escape me.

Finally K, though we don't seem to agree on this one, I think that this a good time for me to say that I do really appreciate the passion and loyalty you feel for our players, and hence the angst this is causing. So if BJ does go, at least maybe we can all agree that the club should ensure that it's..., go with dignity, the club's best wishes, and drop back to visit anytime, coz you are still a club life member BJ... hence why I'd like the Doctor sitting in, and thinking about it, on the topic of ensuring dignity is upheld all round, we could do far worse than have your good self there also.