Why has Ray lost favour ??

[samoht]

I don't get it !!!

-Provides valuable run and carry.
-Very durable - takes one grab marks, even when contested.
-Seems like a nice guy -
- played very well in 2012 under Watters
- averaged 17.2 disposals - despite spending time on the bench !
Kept Swan to 12 disposals in GF1 - while Ray had 13 himself !!

Season 2012 -
Games Kicks HB D M
Total 11 109 80 189 55
Average 11 9.9 7.3 17.2 5.0

[bigcarl]

Beats me. He's a total pro who has played a lot of good football for us. I can easily find a spot for him in my first 22.

i wont name names, but he's better value than a couple of more fancied mids (imo)

The powers that be obviously see him differently

[samoht]

Beats me. He's a total pro who has played a lot of good football for us. I can easily find a spot for him in my first 22.

The powers that be obviously see him differently

should easily be in our first 22 - on many counts.- also, he's still only 26, turning 27 next year.
If the Hawks had him - I'd say he'd be in their 22.

Reliable, no nonsense player - a total pro - as you rightly said.
He almost won GF1 for us by keeping Swan to 12 possessions - while he had 13 himself !!!

[Saints43]

Because he has matches where he pulls down a great overhead mark in the 3rdQ and you'd forgotten he was even playing.

I like him too but he always follows up a good run of 3 games with a run of 3 nothing games. And that's not going to change from here on in.

FWIW I thought he looked terrific when Gram was moved to the wing and he took over JGs role during a few matches. But obviously hasn't got the faith of the coaches.

[LondonSaint]

Because he can't kick.. Better than Jones, but that's not saying much.

[CURLY]

Without knowing for sure at a guess Id say his disposal and decision making is a concern. He also has been around a while and hasnt taken ownership of a position as yet.

[bigcarl]

Because he can't kick.

He's a good kick.

[samoht]

RL tried to change him too much - into a negating player. It worked in GF1 but it also changed his mindset from a normal run and carry player into a dour defender.

I thought Watters (to his credit) got him back on track - back to his more attacking style and a return to his more natural run and carry game. The thing is we need run and carry - and Ray is providing it.

17.2 possessions per game average over 2012 - without full match time - not too shabby.

[gringo]

He's solid with out being brilliant. Great guy, but his out put probably won't get better from here on in. He'd be great at a club like the Dees because he is a pro. He just never really goes to that next level. Jack Steven and Armo probably have about 3 years to take that next step before the club tires of 20 disposal games and thinks the development has stalled. Footy spits you out pretty quickly and he's very much in that Ross Lyon mould- follows instruction but lacks x factor.

[dragit]

I would say that it's his inconsistency from week to week, can be excellent, can go unsighted… Also his size/strength puts him behind a few.

I think we all like him, and actually there should be a lot more opportunities for him next year with us… I like him tagging and I think CJ's days are numbered if not over already… BJ, Polo, Peake - gone, Raph* and Cripps* probably gone… I reckon Gram may be coming up to his last year. 6-7 players that he competes for a spot each week going or gone. However I guess he can see Newnes, Dunell, Siposs, Markworth & Milera on his tail, compounding that, Geary and Simpkin have gone past him to become starting 22 definite's each week. Plus we are searching for another starting 22 key backmen…

Plus you can't see him dislodging Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Dempster…

One thing's for sure, most guys over 25 that aren't getting a regular game in the 1's want to move clubs and that is fair enough really. Makes it hard to keep players for depth…

He deserves to be playing senior AFL footy, is just too good for VFL IMO, so I hope he gets that chance next year if not with us, then somewhere else.

[plugger66]

I would say that it's his inconsistency from week to week, can be excellent, can go unsighted… Also his size/strength puts him behind a few.

I think we all like him, and actually there should be a lot more opportunities for him next year with us… I like him tagging and I think CJ's days are numbered if not over already… BJ, Polo, Peake - gone, Raph* and Cripps* probably gone… I reckon Gram may be coming up to his last year. 6-7 players that he competes for a spot each week going or gone. However I guess he can see Newnes, Dunell, Siposs, Markworth & Milera on his tail, compounding that, Geary and Simpkin have gone past him to become starting 22 definite's each week. Plus we are searching for another starting 22 key backmen…

Plus you can't see him dislodging Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Dempster…

One thing's for sure, most guys over 25 that aren't getting a regular game in the 1's want to move clubs and that is fair enough really. Makes it hard to keep players for depth…

He deserves to be playing senior AFL footy, is just too good for VFL IMO, so I hope he gets that chance next year if not with us, then somewhere else.

I think Joey is our tagger now. And obviously did a btter job than I thought based on the B&F count.

[samoht]

He's solid with out being brilliant. Great guy, but his out put probably won't get better from here on in. He'd be great at a club like the Dees because he is a pro. He just never really goes to that next level. Jack Steven and Armo probably have about 3 years to take that next step before the club tires of 20 disposal games and thinks the development has stalled. Footy spits you out pretty quickly and he's very much in that Ross Lyon mould- follows instruction but lacks x factor.

I love Armo, but I don't think Armo will get any better (as in take his game to the next level over the next 3 years) as his game depends on him being a battering ram. I'm happy if he can stay at the current level, to be honest.

Same with Ray - I'm happy with his 20 odd possessions - even if his development "stalls" where it is and he continues to provide the same valuable run and carry, what is wrong with that ?

It could be argued that St Kilda as a team overall lacks the run and carry x factor... and Ray has it !
Ray is a durable and reliable player - who will be there week after week - let's not discount the importance of continuity.

[gringo]

I would say that it's his inconsistency from week to week, can be excellent, can go unsighted… Also his size/strength puts him behind a few.

I think we all like him, and actually there should be a lot more opportunities for him next year with us… I like him tagging and I think CJ's days are numbered if not over already… BJ, Polo, Peake - gone, Raph* and Cripps* probably gone… I reckon Gram may be coming up to his last year. 6-7 players that he competes for a spot each week going or gone. However I guess he can see Newnes, Dunell, Siposs, Markworth & Milera on his tail, compounding that, Geary and Simpkin have gone past him to become starting 22 definite's each week. Plus we are searching for another starting 22 key backmen…

Plus you can't see him dislodging Fisher, Gwilt, Gilbert, Dempster…

One thing's for sure, most guys over 25 that aren't getting a regular game in the 1's want to move clubs and that is fair enough really. Makes it hard to keep players for depth…

He deserves to be playing senior AFL footy, is just too good for VFL IMO, so I hope he gets that chance next year if not with us, then somewhere else.

I think Joey is our tagger now. And obviously did a btter job than I thought based on the B&F count.

Yeah, it's funny that one. Joey was a defensive forward at times and a tagger or more accountable mid and seemed to have a down season overall but obviously the coaching panel thought he did as asked.

I heard Scott saying CJ is in his future planning so I'm not discounting him yet. He didn't play towards the end of the season but they also loaded up on the kids a little more and booked surgery for the old boys. I'm not sure CJ is done with yet but may have to play against the teams that require a tag on a dominant mid. He can still win the ball and get it out despite his poor disposal by foot.

[plugger66]

He's solid with out being brilliant. Great guy, but his out put probably won't get better from here on in. He'd be great at a club like the Dees because he is a pro. He just never really goes to that next level. Jack Steven and Armo probably have about 3 years to take that next step before the club tires of 20 disposal games and thinks the development has stalled. Footy spits you out pretty quickly and he's very much in that Ross Lyon mould- follows instruction but lacks x factor.

I love Armo, but I don't think Armo will get any better (as in take his game to the next level over the next 3 years) as his game depends on him being a battering ram. I'm happy if he can stay at the current level, to be honest.

Same with Ray - I'm happy with his 20 odd possessions - even if his development "stalls" where it is and he continues to provide the same valuable run and carry, what is wrong with that ?

It could be argued that St Kilda as a team overall lacks the run and carry x factor... and Ray has it !

You are easily pleased. If guys like Armo dont continue to improve we as a club will struggle to improve. As for Ray I dont think a player who plays 10 or so games is a big loss. We on here obviously dont understand what Ray is supposed to be doing on the ground but obviously the coaching staff do and Ray must be struggling to achieve those goals. If he goes it aint a huge loss. If he stays then good but it going to improve our side.

[gringo]

He's solid with out being brilliant. Great guy, but his out put probably won't get better from here on in. He'd be great at a club like the Dees because he is a pro. He just never really goes to that next level. Jack Steven and Armo probably have about 3 years to take that next step before the club tires of 20 disposal games and thinks the development has stalled. Footy spits you out pretty quickly and he's very much in that Ross Lyon mould- follows instruction but lacks x factor.

I love Armo, but I don't think Armo will get any better (as in take his game to the next level over the next 3 years) as his game depends on him being a battering ram. I'm happy if he can stay at the current level, to be honest.

Same with Ray - I'm happy with his 20 odd possessions - even if his development "stalls" where it is and he continues to provide the same valuable run and carry, what is wrong with that ?

It could be argued that St Kilda as a team overall lacks the run and carry x factor... and Ray has it !
Ray is a durable and reliable player - who will be there week after week - let's not discount the importance of continuity.

They are different players but Armo wins the contested ball and can kick goals and is lucky that we don't have an abundance of similar types. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of Armo taking the in and under role from Lenny next year on a more consistent basis. They must see him a the successor long term and need to phase him in. His out put should lift once he gets to play his natural role a little more. He is good but probably an average of 10 possessions more a week would make him elite.

He can run and carry Faz but not very creative with the ball, the only thing is without Brendan there he could be a little more handy because he can be used as a utility rather than just a mid or small defender. He more a jack of all trades than a master of anything in particular.

[samoht]

Plugger, the question is why has Ray lost favour and is only playing 10 games ?
- given that St Kilda needs run and carry - and he provides it.

Maybe the powers that be should open their eyes.

As I said I'm happy with Armo's output already - he leaves nothing behind and given that he's not a machine, I'm happy if he stays at that breakneck level , if that makes me easily pleased, so be it . Other players can do their bit too.

[SainterK]

I like Ray, but I see this as the club trying to do the right thing by him rather than him losing favour.

He is good enough to be a consistent best 22 player at the Demons, and in what he's given to the Saints (signed for peanuts if you believe the press) he deserves that opportunity.

The way I see it, it isn't personal against him as a player, yes he does have great run and carry, but it's Ray in the side over Newnes, Ross, Ledger, Milera etc etc...

Yes we could keep him to come in when someone is injured, but I think the guy would want to be playing football at a senior level.

He will be wonderful for Melbourne, balanced young man, will buy in to whatever the coach is saying...and like Byrnes, Dawes...decent upgrade on the senior 'leaders' the the Demons had at their disposal, and all from clubs who have been in contention.

People whack Neeld, but this overhaul of the Demons list is LONG overdue....tail was wagging the dog there for too long.

[samoht]

But Ray would be in the Hawk's 22 - there, I've said it.
Puopolo and Guerra etc... are better players ?

[plugger66]

I like Ray, but I see this as the club trying to do the right thing by him rather than him losing favour.

He is good enough to be a consistent best 22 player at the Demons, and in what he's given to the Saints (signed for peanuts if you believe the press) he deserves that opportunity.

The way I see it, it isn't personal against him as a player, yes he does have great run and carry, but it's Ray in the side over Newnes, Ross, Ledger, Milera etc etc...

Yes we could keep him to come in when someone is injured, but I think the guy would want to be playing football at a senior level.

He will be wonderful for Melbourne, balanced young man, will buy in to whatever the coach is saying...and like Byrnes, Dawes...decent upgrade on the senior 'leaders' the the Demons had at their disposal, and all from clubs who have been in contention.

People whack Neeld, but this overhaul of the Demons list is LONG overdue....tail was wagging the dog there for too long.

I still want to know what you think peanuts is? He would be on about 200k which I doubt anyone even in footy would call peanuts. And I unsure this is about our club doing the right thing. Isnt he the one wanting to go for better opportunities.

[plugger66]

But Ray would be in the Hawk's 22 - there, I've said it.
Puopolo and Guerra etc... are better players ?

Ray couldnt play in either of those positions they play in and doesnt kick well enough to replace Guerra anyway.

[samoht]

But Ray would be in the Hawk's 22 - there, I've said it.
Puopolo and Guerra etc... are better players ?

Ray couldnt play in either of those positions they play in and doesnt kick well enough to replace Guerra anyway.

Puopolo averaged 11 possessions in 2012 and didn't have trouble getting 21 games !!!!
Tell me he's better than Ray.

[plugger66]

But Ray would be in the Hawk's 22 - there, I've said it.
Puopolo and Guerra etc... are better players ?

Ray couldnt play in either of those positions they play in and doesnt kick well enough to replace Guerra anyway.

Puopolo averaged 11 possessions in 2012 and didn't have trouble getting 21 games !!!!
Tell me he's better than Ray.

He plays in a different position. If Milne wasnt playing Ray wouldnt replace him.

[samoht]

He plays in a different position. If Milne wasnt playing Ray wouldnt replace him.

Yeah Paupolo plays in the midfield and averages 11 possessions !

[SainterK]

I like Ray, but I see this as the club trying to do the right thing by him rather than him losing favour.

He is good enough to be a consistent best 22 player at the Demons, and in what he's given to the Saints (signed for peanuts if you believe the press) he deserves that opportunity.

The way I see it, it isn't personal against him as a player, yes he does have great run and carry, but it's Ray in the side over Newnes, Ross, Ledger, Milera etc etc...

Yes we could keep him to come in when someone is injured, but I think the guy would want to be playing football at a senior level.

He will be wonderful for Melbourne, balanced young man, will buy in to whatever the coach is saying...and like Byrnes, Dawes...decent upgrade on the senior 'leaders' the the Demons had at their disposal, and all from clubs who have been in contention.

People whack Neeld, but this overhaul of the Demons list is LONG overdue....tail was wagging the dog there for too long.

I still want to know what you think peanuts is? He would be on about 200k which I doubt anyone even in footy would call peanuts. And I unsure this is about our club doing the right thing. Isnt he the one wanting to go for better opportunities.

Peanuts is in comparison to what he could potentially earn at Melbourne?

Of course he wants to go, but it appears amicable and with our blessing, at least to me.

[plugger66]

I like Ray, but I see this as the club trying to do the right thing by him rather than him losing favour.

He is good enough to be a consistent best 22 player at the Demons, and in what he's given to the Saints (signed for peanuts if you believe the press) he deserves that opportunity.

The way I see it, it isn't personal against him as a player, yes he does have great run and carry, but it's Ray in the side over Newnes, Ross, Ledger, Milera etc etc...

Yes we could keep him to come in when someone is injured, but I think the guy would want to be playing football at a senior level.

He will be wonderful for Melbourne, balanced young man, will buy in to whatever the coach is saying...and like Byrnes, Dawes...decent upgrade on the senior 'leaders' the the Demons had at their disposal, and all from clubs who have been in contention.

People whack Neeld, but this overhaul of the Demons list is LONG overdue....tail was wagging the dog there for too long.

I still want to know what you think peanuts is? He would be on about 200k which I doubt anyone even in footy would call peanuts. And I unsure this is about our club doing the right thing. Isnt he the one wanting to go for better opportunities.

Peanuts is in comparison to what he could potentially earn at Melbourne?

Of course he wants to go, but it appears amicable and with our blessing, at least to me.

Of course it is because it appears to me we couldnt give a stuff if he goes. Doesnt Ray have a contract? Surely Melbourne wont be stupid enough to pay him to much more than his contract is worth. Well at least in the first year.