Umpires are cheats

[sunsaint]

I am not at all surprised by the free kick differential
I would bet half of those 28 have been shank kicks oof
What i am constantly surprised at is when supporters accept errors from players, but not from umpires

[Superboot]

Are kicks out on the full counted in the stats?

On a slightly different tack, while I know that many of the frees against have been comical, I have wondered whether some are down to skill errors.

On numerous occasions, I've seen an opposition players lying face down over the ball, Saints players pile in and next thing you know the opposition player gets a free for high contact. Just when you think we'll get a free for holding the ball, the opposition get out of jail.

Anyone else noticed this?

[Life Long Saint]

What i am constantly surprised at is when supporters accept errors from players, but not from umpires

You shouldn't be.
Umpires aren't under direct physical pressure and they don't have to execute a very hard ball skill or manoeuvre.
They have to get into the best position to see the contest and make an adjudication. Yes it is split second but that is all.

Errors made whilst under pressure from players I can cop. I can't cop the unforced errors. I am pretty sure that, by reading some of the posts that speak about Gilbert and Jones, the supporters don't accept it either.

[plugger66]

What i am constantly surprised at is when supporters accept errors from players, but not from umpires

You shouldn't be.
Umpires aren't under direct physical pressure and they don't have to execute a very hard ball skill or manoeuvre.
They have to get into the best position to see the contest and make an adjudication. Yes it is split second but that is all.

Errors made whilst under pressure from players I can cop. I can't cop the unforced errors. I am pretty sure that, by reading some of the posts that speak about Gilbert and Jones, the supporters don't accept it either.

No there is no pressure at all knowing 50% of the crowd will think the decision you made is wrong and there is no pressure trying to see through the 25 players around the ball. Yep its a simple game to umpire and thats why we even as Saints supporters see the same decision to separate ways. I would call a basic mark the equivalent to unforced error and I would call a handing the ball when 20 guys are around the pack as equivalent to a forced error.

[Life Long Saint]

Umpires aren't under direct physical pressure and they don't have to execute a very hard ball skill or manoeuvre.
They have to get into the best position to see the contest and make an adjudication. Yes it is split second but that is all.

Errors made whilst under pressure from players I can cop. I can't cop the unforced errors. I am pretty sure that, by reading some of the posts that speak about Gilbert and Jones, the supporters don't accept it either.

No there is no pressure at all knowing 50% of the crowd will think the decision you made is wrong and there is no pressure trying to see through the 25 players around the ball. Yep its a simple game to umpire and thats why we even as Saints supporters see the same decision to separate ways. I would call a basic mark the equivalent to unforced error and I would call a handing the ball when 20 guys are around the pack as equivalent to a forced error.

50% of the crowd also hate the footballer and want him to make a mistake.

Footballers have to execute the mental and physical skill.
Umpires only the mental skill.

Don't even try and compare the two. Not even close.

Also, I never said "no pressure"...I said not "under direct physical pressure"...and they're not.

[plugger66]

Umpires aren't under direct physical pressure and they don't have to execute a very hard ball skill or manoeuvre.
They have to get into the best position to see the contest and make an adjudication. Yes it is split second but that is all.

Errors made whilst under pressure from players I can cop. I can't cop the unforced errors. I am pretty sure that, by reading some of the posts that speak about Gilbert and Jones, the supporters don't accept it either.

No there is no pressure at all knowing 50% of the crowd will think the decision you made is wrong and there is no pressure trying to see through the 25 players around the ball. Yep its a simple game to umpire and thats why we even as Saints supporters see the same decision to separate ways. I would call a basic mark the equivalent to unforced error and I would call a handing the ball when 20 guys are around the pack as equivalent to a forced error.

50% of the crowd also hate the footballer and want him to make a mistake.

Footballers have to execute the mental and physical skill.
Umpires only the mental skill.

Don't even try and compare the two. Not even close.

Also, I never said "no pressure"...I said not "under direct physical pressure"...and they're not.

Sorry but apart the odd footballer they dont get booed every possession because most people just watch the game. Most decisions by umpires are booed by 50% of the crowd. I really wish umpire bashers would just go and do a few games of local footy and see even in the lower ranks how hard it can be. It i obviously hard or they would make errors. Surely that makes sense to you.

[Life Long Saint]

I have umpired...and I have played.
I know which is easier.

Who cares if the crowd boo as long as you've made the right call.
If the umpire is thinking of the crowd then they shouldn't be umpiring.

And, for the record, I am not umpire bashing. I am stating a fact that umpire errors should be less than player errors due the lack of physical pressure in addition to the mental pressure.

[plugger66]

I have umpired...and I have played.
I know which is easier.

Who cares if the crowd boo as long as you've made the right call.
If the umpire is thinking of the crowd then they shouldn't be umpiring.

And, for the record, I am not umpire bashing. I am stating a fact that umpire errors should be less than player errors due the lack of physical pressure in addition to the mental pressure.

And they are less so what are you actually saying. And obviously playing is harder on your body but I would suggest umpiring is mentally harder. Its like saying accounting is easier than being a carpenter. And umpires will try to take no notice of the crowd but decisions suggest they do because even people may not agree they are only human and will very occasionally be influenced even if they think they arent.

[Saints94]

It's becoming a very hard game to follow.

Amen brother

+3, imo you won't even notice the game in 5-8 years!

[Life Long Saint]

I have umpired...and I have played.
I know which is easier.

Who cares if the crowd boo as long as you've made the right call.
If the umpire is thinking of the crowd then they shouldn't be umpiring.

And, for the record, I am not umpire bashing. I am stating a fact that umpire errors should be less than player errors due the lack of physical pressure in addition to the mental pressure.

And they are less so what are you actually saying. And obviously playing is harder on your body but I would suggest umpiring is mentally harder. Its like saying accounting is easier than being a carpenter. And umpires will try to take no notice of the crowd but decisions suggest they do because even people may not agree they are only human and will very occasionally be influenced even if they think they arent.

I'd argue that playing is mentally harder.
Not only do you have to read the play, know where to run, know where your opponent is, know where your team mates are so you can pass to them if you get the ball, know how to tackle correctly so you don't give away a free, remember the team game plan, remember what to do for the game situation, assess the best option for your team when you do have the ball and on it goes...
Once you've done all that, you still have to execute the skill whilst often under extreme pressure.

Umpiring requires you to read the play (but don't get in the way - or not depending on who you are) and know where to position yourself...Assess the contest and adjudicate accordingly. Seriously, if the crowd comes into it then you shouldn't be out there. I'm not talking at the local level but by the time you get to AFL this crap should be eradicated.

And it's nothing like saying that accounting is easier than carpentry. For one, it's not. The average person, with a simple instruction, can knock up a book case in a weekend but would struggle to produce a balance sheet for their household.

Methinks you're arguing just for the sake of it now.

[plugger66]

I have umpired...and I have played.
I know which is easier.

Who cares if the crowd boo as long as you've made the right call.
If the umpire is thinking of the crowd then they shouldn't be umpiring.

And, for the record, I am not umpire bashing. I am stating a fact that umpire errors should be less than player errors due the lack of physical pressure in addition to the mental pressure.

And they are less so what are you actually saying. And obviously playing is harder on your body but I would suggest umpiring is mentally harder. Its like saying accounting is easier than being a carpenter. And umpires will try to take no notice of the crowd but decisions suggest they do because even people may not agree they are only human and will very occasionally be influenced even if they think they arent.

I'd argue that playing is mentally harder.
Not only do you have to read the play, know where to run, know where your opponent is, know where your team mates are so you can pass to them if you get the ball, know how to tackle correctly so you don't give away a free, remember the team game plan, remember what to do for the game situation, assess the best option for your team when you do have the ball and on it goes...
Once you've done all that, you still have to execute the skill whilst often under extreme pressure.

Umpiring requires you to read the play (but don't get in the way - or not depending on who you are) and know where to position yourself...Assess the contest and adjudicate accordingly. Seriously, if the crowd comes into it then you shouldn't be out there. I'm not talking at the local level but by the time you get to AFL this crap should be eradicated.

And it's nothing like saying that accounting is easier than carpentry. For one, it's not. The average person, with a simple instruction, can knock up a book case in a weekend but would struggle to produce a balance sheet for their household.

Methinks you're arguing just for the sake of it now.

Well you are wrong on your last comment and i could also say at least 20% of your posts seem to be about umpiring. I will again say if it is so simple as you seem to make out like they shouldnt be influenced by the crowd and they should hust get in the right positions than you would think they wouldnt make errrors. i suggest it is a lot harder than you think. Just because it is mainly a mental thing compared to being a footballer doesnt make it easy or mean you wont make errors and they do make less than most players.

[saint6]

No there is no pressure at all knowing 50% of the crowd will think the decision you made is wrong and there is no pressure trying to see through the 25 players around the ball. Yep its a simple game to umpire and thats why we even as Saints supporters see the same decision to separate ways. I would call a basic mark the equivalent to unforced error and I would call a handing the ball when 20 guys are around the pack as equivalent to a forced error.[/quote]
50% of the crowd also hate the footballer and want him to make a mistake.

Footballers have to execute the mental and physical skill.
Umpires only the mental skill.

Don't even try and compare the two. Not even close.

Also, I never said "no pressure"...I said not "under direct physical pressure"...and they're not.[/quote]


Sorry but apart the odd footballer they dont get booed every possession because most people just watch the game. Most decisions by umpires are booed by 50% of the crowd. I really wish umpire bashers would just go and do a few games of local footy and see even in the lower ranks how hard it can be. It i obviously hard or they would make errors. Surely that makes sense to you.[/quote]

The standard of umpiring in the local matches is generally far higher and more consistent than in the afl. Perhaps it is due to the slower pace of the game or maybe it is because umpires are selected for their adjudicating skills and not their ability to bounce the ball high in the air.

[Life Long Saint]

Well you are wrong on your last comment and i could also say at least 20% of your posts seem to be about umpiring. I will again say if it is so simple as you seem to make out like they shouldnt be influenced by the crowd and they should hust get in the right positions than you would think they wouldnt make errrors. i suggest it is a lot harder than you think. Just because it is mainly a mental thing compared to being a footballer doesnt make it easy or mean you wont make errors and they do make less than most players.

20% is not a lot...That means that 80% of my posts are not on umpiring.
I post on the topic because it is frustrating and so easy to fix. It starts with the rules.

I never once said that umpiring wasn't hard. I just said that it is easier than playing the game. Can't see how it can't be.

I also didn't say they shouldn't make errors. They will but the amount of errors we are seeing is too high. If they're not getting to the right positions then that should be addressed.

As much as it pains me to say, I like Eddie McGuire's idea about fewer umpires doing more games. Let the umpires umpire in quadrants so they can get a better look from all sides of the contest.

These guys are getting well paid to do a high pressure job. We should expect and demand nothing but total professionalism from them not go running scared because 40,000 West Coast supporters might boo if I pay the free kick to the opposition. It goes with the territory.

[6621104]

Just like players, some of whom despite their best efforts take years to get the game at the highest level (think Jobe Watson, Ted Richards and even Stevie J) so will some umpires take time. Expertise cannot be arrived at simply by selection. Some (yes players as well) will never be up to it , despite all their effort. We have made the game faster, allowed changes that have drawn larger packs of players around the ball, changed rules relentlessly , evened up the competition and thus presumably narrowing the spread in a loss - is it not surprising that umpire errors are seeming to both become more likely and also more likely to determine the outcome of a game? How can decisions be made in an instant, by umpires who have developed a feel for the game, when the powers that be constantly require them to re-interpret as new rules come in? Look at how the players struggle with the in the back rule changes.
None of this explains away why one team seems to get the raw end of the deal, as I suspect the saints have. We do appear to be outliers with the free kick differential and even more so with location of the frees and the influence on the game outcome.
Why is this? It is unlikely to be corruption (cheating) as suggested so it must be something the players are doing. Look at the dumb free kicks given away this year. Forget the ones not paid, we cannot do anything about that week by week, but we can stop scragging, holding, diving on the guy on the ground etc!

[joffaboy]

Just like players, some of whom despite their best efforts take years to get the game at the highest level (think Jobe Watson, Ted Richards and even Stevie J) so will some umpires take time.

Unacceptable. Players take time to elarn the game in lower grades. Umpires should not be learning how to umpire at AFL level.

Expertise cannot be arrived at simply by selection. Some (yes players as well) will never be up to it , despite all their effort. We have made the game faster, allowed changes that have drawn larger packs of players around the ball, changed rules relentlessly , evened up the competition and thus presumably narrowing the spread in a loss - is it not surprising that umpire errors are seeming to both become more likely and also more likely to determine the outcome of a game?

What tosh. Umpires will make mistakes, but it is the inconsistency and their belief, perpetuated by the kid gloves holier than thou attitude by the AFL that the umpires are untouchable, that leads umpires to think they are part of the game. THEY ARE NOT. They run in to be the centre of attention, they practive their theatrical movements when giving a free kick, they carry on like we have paid to watch them.

Grant Thomas was spot on. They need to park their ego's and let the players entertain. But we saw the absolute distain umpire Head and his crew had for that and cheated in R21 2005 (which Anderson and the AFL attempted to cover up)

How can decisions be made in an instant, by umpires who have developed a feel for the game, when the powers that be constantly require them to re-interpret as new rules come in? Look at how the players struggle with the in the back rule changes.

This may be true, but dont guess like they do now. Pay only the absolute ones that are there. And if you are going to pay an in the back when the player has incorrectly disposed of the ball -BE CONSISTANT, and dont fkn change interpretation. If you aren't going to pay a forward being blocked all night 10,15,20 metres off the ball, - DONT PAY A BLOCK 20 METRES IN FRONT OF GOAL to kill a game (especially after the opposition has had a player smashed in a shirtfront in the face 15 secons earlier)

None of this explains away why one team seems to get the raw end of the deal, as I suspect the saints have. We do appear to be outliers with the free kick differential and even more so with location of the frees and the influence on the game outcome.

What does explain it then? Why does Richmond get 9.0 frees inside fifty to 0 for the Saints. 5.4 to 0 in goals and points. Why does Armo get klicked in the face and thet is play on but their Riewoldt gets 5 free kicks in front of goal for the softest infringements you could see.

ABSOLUTE INCONSITENCY AND INCOMPETENCE.

Why is this? It is unlikely to be corruption (cheating) as suggested so it must be something the players are doing. Look at the dumb free kicks given away this year.

Umpire Head let the cat out of the bag 8 years ago.

Forget the ones not paid, we cannot do anything about that week by week, but we can stop scragging, holding, diving on the guy on the ground etc!

yes we can, but even if we are penalised for that, is it too much to ask for the egotist incompetent umpires to BE CONSISTENT, and penalise the opposition for the same infringements?

Why should we forget the ones not paid when they ARE paid to the opposition?

it is a travesty and the umpires need to be held to account. It has cost us one if not two games so foar this season.

[bergholt]

Unacceptable. Players take time to elarn the game in lower grades. Umpires should not be learning how to umpire at AFL level.

That doesn't really make sense. Most players don't make an immediate step up from VFL to AFL, they need to adjust to the game at the top level which takes a few years and tens of games of experience - as we're finding now. Why should that be different for umpires?