Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370825Post Devilhead »

My God there are some idiots on this forum

Its quite obvious to most people with a functioning brain that the reason for our below average ladder position this year can be put down to

1. A large proportion of games missed by structural important senior players due to injury - Fisher, Gilbert, Schneidner, Hayes, Maister
2. Other senior players now officially past it - Kosi, Blake, Milne
3. These senior players being replaced by players with less than 30 games experience - everyone knows who they are
4. Losing Goddard
5. Improvement of middle teir teams around us that have been down longer than us and have acquired highly rated yongsters with picks significantly lower than ours who now have games under their belts
6. Pathetic drafting during the Lyon years

The only thing worse than armchair critics are armchair critics that have no friggin idea :roll:


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370827Post saintspremiers »

plugger has a point to a degree bit is being far too simplistic saying we lost 9 games more than last year.

We've also lost BJ, Gram, Fisher & Gilbert from our defensive third.

Not sure if that accounts for 9 losses. Probably not. But 4 or 5, I'd say likely.

Our boys this season have poor fitness and conditioning - or is it that the oldies are not getting enough support from the kids and are simply falling apart due to age/overuse???

I hope that is the case not that the players are poorly managed.

Anyway, I just wish Netters would start a fundraising drive to create a Saints VFL team for 2014. Maybe he should start talking to some banks re some cheap debt to get the ball rolling ASAP. He could always try and use the AFL as a partial guarantor given they will bail us out if we fall in a heap!


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370829Post Cairnsman »

saintspremiers wrote:
plugger is being far too simplistic

that's all I heard.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370832Post plugger66 »

Lets be totally honest on here. SW has some average or young players to work with. he also has some very good older players to work with and 3 young to middle aged players to work with in Steven, Armo and ben. if you looked at our list it is certainly a better side than a 3 win for the season side. Anyone thinking otherwise is lying to themselves to feel better or lying to themselves to justify that SW is some sort of great coach for the future. I mean some rated his season 9 out of 10 for 3 wins. We have lost 9 more games than last year if we dont win another game which is now probable. We have excuses. Our backline has had good players out most of the year and we lost BJ and Gram from those positions. The people who said BJ can be replaced by Siposs are looking rather silly now.As silly as those that said Gram was no loss at all.

Now to those who think we should get rid of SW well I think they are being a bit over the top. I have little doubt some other coaches may have got us to maybe 5 or 6 wins for the season but really there isnt that much difference. SW has a contract for next year. Lets see how he goes to about this stage next year before we get rid of him or re sign him.

And to those saying I am having it both ways well they are right. dont try it by the way it hurts. Keep SW but make a decision on his future this time next year. And stop whinging about the coach because if you are now wait until we really hit rock bottom.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370848Post SainterK »

Dunno

Surely the jury is out.

Dogs got smashed yet you can see something now that they're building towards.

I do hope we aim to get Adam Simpson from the hawks to work with our midfield.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370849Post Cairnsman »

plugger66 wrote:Lets be totally honest on here. SW has some average or young players to work with. he also has some very good older players to work with and 3 young to middle aged players to work with in Steven, Armo and ben. if you looked at our list it is certainly a better side than a 3 win for the season side. Anyone thinking otherwise is lying to themselves to feel better or lying to themselves to justify that SW is some sort of great coach for the future. I mean some rated his season 9 out of 10 for 3 wins. We have lost 9 more games than last year if we dont win another game which is now probable. We have excuses. Our backline has had good players out most of the year and we lost BJ and Gram from those positions. The people who said BJ can be replaced by Siposs are looking rather silly now.As silly as those that said Gram was no loss at all.

Now to those who think we should get rid of SW well I think they are being a bit over the top. I have little doubt some other coaches may have got us to maybe 5 or 6 wins for the season but really there isnt that much difference. SW has a contract for next year. Lets see how he goes to about this stage next year before we get rid of him or re sign him.

And to those saying I am having it both ways well they are right. dont try it by the way it hurts. Keep SW but make a decision on his future this time next year. And stop whinging about the coach because if you are now wait until we really hit rock bottom.
This is random, but since the zone system was abolished and the national draft system was introduced, how many coaches can you think of that have rebuilt a list with a team that was at the bottom of the ladder and then kept their job long enough to win a flag with that list...off the top of my head I can only think of two, Mick Malthouse and Alistair Clarkson.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370863Post rodgerfox »

plugger66 wrote:Lets be totally honest on here. SW has some average or young players to work with. he also has some very good older players to work with and 3 young to middle aged players to work with in Steven, Armo and ben. if you looked at our list it is certainly a better side than a 3 win for the season side. Anyone thinking otherwise is lying to themselves to feel better or lying to themselves to justify that SW is some sort of great coach for the future. I mean some rated his season 9 out of 10 for 3 wins. We have lost 9 more games than last year if we dont win another game which is now probable. We have excuses. Our backline has had good players out most of the year and we lost BJ and Gram from those positions. The people who said BJ can be replaced by Siposs are looking rather silly now.As silly as those that said Gram was no loss at all.

Now to those who think we should get rid of SW well I think they are being a bit over the top. I have little doubt some other coaches may have got us to maybe 5 or 6 wins for the season but really there isnt that much difference. SW has a contract for next year. Lets see how he goes to about this stage next year before we get rid of him or re sign him.

And to those saying I am having it both ways well they are right. dont try it by the way it hurts. Keep SW but make a decision on his future this time next year. And stop whinging about the coach because if you are now wait until we really hit rock bottom.

I think that's simplistic.

I don't think you can simply look at a list and decide what the win-loss ratio should be, or decide that a team has underperformed based simply on their list.


If you look at our backline, in reality - not the list, but the actual backline that has made it on to the park - then I think having 3 wins and 2 close losses is an overachievement.

If you look at our midfield, in my opinion it is what it is. We lost a superstar player, and have Armitage and Steven as our two main men in there. Add in a junior ruckman with no senior support, and clearly it is the most undermanned midfield in the comp. Joey and Dal going through there helps, but they're both outside players and that doesn't really help the young guys that much.

The forward line, as always, is one dimensional and old. Milne is over the hill, the other smalls that have been playing forward are juniors and well below being 'good', plus the other talls such as Stanley, Kosi and Maister have either had to go back or have been injured.

There is no structure due to availability, and there is no continuity due to injuries.


So all in all, 3 wins and 2 close losses is pretty much exactly where I think we're at. Based on the ladder and catching teams at certain times, we beat the Dees and GWS which I'd expect and probably should have/could have beaten the Dogs and/or Gold Coast - but were fortunate to beat Carlton.

So yeah, 3 wins is par for me. Anything more would have been a bonus, anything less would be disappointing.


But if we played the Dees twice and GWS twice, we'd probably be a 5 win team.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370866Post dragit »

Cairnsman wrote:This is random, but since the zone system was abolished and the national draft system was introduced, how many coaches can you think of that have rebuilt a list with a team that was at the bottom of the ladder and then kept their job long enough to win a flag with that list...off the top of my head I can only think of two, Mick Malthouse and Alistair Clarkson.
Yes and if you take out the picks they gained by finishing at the bottom, neither would have a flag in the past 20+ years…
The notion that the 'good' clubs don't accept poor years is just ridiculous, without these players - Hodge, Roughead, Franklin, Thomas, Pendlebury… neither of these powerful clubs would have a flag.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370895Post lloyd21 »

You could have : Paul Roos Leigh Matthews John Worsfold John Longmire would not matter unless you have the cattle you will not succeed en of story.

For the last time


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370908Post spert »

So all coaches are the same, none are better than the others, all are on the same level and the only factor is the players.. from my footy playing days of years gone by, excuse me if I disagree. In my time I played with some ordinary players who turned it around under different coaches(couldn't help my bung knee though). Some guys coach and don't get the message across, some are born coaches and communicators, and the effect on players can be pretty remarkable.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370915Post Dis Believer »

Naturally some guys are better coaches than others, that is true of all professions. But some teams start with advantages on thier lists. The two WA teams get a WA players with a case of the "I want to go home" at under the odds, that is n advantage Same for the WA guys.

The new teams have obvious and massive start up concessions. Sydney have a salary cap advantage, and I think a junior development system that is designed to grow participation in the game in NSW, but it acts asa junior catchemnt for them.

The "power" clubs in Melbourne have more money to spend on recruiting and development, as well as "sponsor"deals and media connections that they can use to be "more attractive" to players looking to move clubs.

The fact that the draft provides some sort of equitable levelling mechanism is a godsend, becuase it's about the only leveller there is in the whole comp.

Yes some coaches are better than others, but I think ours wil prove in the long run to be better than average, because he understands how the system works and how to get the most out of it. Keep watching this space, because, much like Ro$$ in his early days, there are plenty of critics. But then he became hot property.......


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1370949Post Cairnsman »

I also think that when it comes to the competencies of coaches I wonder if you have to look at strengths and weaknesses and how they match where a list is at.

As we know Ross Lyon has the results on the board with the Saints and now Freo but probably would not do so well at a club that needs rebuilding. His very regimented and structured process based management style is probably best suited to an older more developed list with more mature and professional players that are ready to buy into his style. History is proof of that.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371037Post Devilhead »

Cairnsman wrote: As we know Ross Lyon has the results on the board with the Saints and now Freo but probably would not do so well at a club that needs rebuilding. His very regimented and structured process based management style is probably best suited to an older more developed list with more mature and professional players that are ready to buy into his style. History is proof of that.
So he is a frontrunner pretty much


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371069Post one point »

Geelong carried out a detailed review of their coach, coaching structure and personnel before going on to win premierships.
I imagine that the StKilda Board identified measures for success in appointing Chris Pelchen and Scott Watters. Having fallen from being a finalist in 2011 to 16th in 2013 it is essential to conduct a review to assess what is required to get the saints competitive again. If it means that we are on track and all of the personnel appointed to guide the football operations are meeting the expected standards then so be it. If that means the coach goes then so be it.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371097Post gringo »

So our exact same list from the 2010 Drawn GF is something like this from WIKIPEDIA
2010 St Kilda Drawn Grand Final team
B: 1 Jason Gram -GONE 6 Zac Dawson-GONE 19 Sam Gilbert-INJURED
HB: 27 Jason Blake- NOT PLAYED 25 Sam Fisher-INJURED 40 Robert Eddy-GONE
C: 18 Brendon Goddard -GONE 26 Nick Dal Santo PLAYED MOST 22 Farren Ray PLAYED MOST
HF: 30 Brett Peake -GONE23 Justin Koschitzke-NOT PLAYED 11 Leigh Montagna-PLAYED MOST
F: 13Adam Schneider _INJURED12 Nick Riewoldt (c) PLAYED MOST44 Stephen Milne PLAY SOME
Foll: 15 Michael Gardiner GONE7 Lenny Hayes PLAYED SOME4 Clinton Jones PLAYED MOST
Int: 24 Sean Dempster PLAYED MOST BUT INJURED 32 Andrew McQualter-GONE 33 James Gwilt-PLAYED MOST BUT INJURED
10 Steven Bake_GONE
Coach: Ross Lyon_ GONE

Raph also GONE

That's exactly the same list this guy is a dud he had a list capable of nearly winning the PS and in 2013 can't get them to play the same. But Ross would have had Montagna, Rooey, Farren, Dal and Dempster play so well that they would have been in the top 4. Which coach would have done any better? Seriously we ran the list down and were at the end in Ross's words and now we are rebuilding. If anyone is to blame it's the administration from that time who failed to leave the list in a good state.

Funny how everyone wanted Raph, Peake, Gamble, Polo, Gram, Zac all sacked but now whinge when we have to step backwards to replace these guys with kids.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371134Post BigMart »

We almost are


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371153Post Cairnsman »

BigMart wrote:We almost are

Not sure what you are on about but I'm sure it's hilarious.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371170Post gringo »

Cairnsman wrote:
BigMart wrote:We almost are

Not sure what you are on about but I'm sure it's hilarious.

I assume he means gone. I think BM might have been calling us gone 5 years ago though. Cripps actually had a statistically better game than Jack Darling on the weekend and hasn't been too bad this year maybe he just didn't show much in his first couple of seasons not a spud.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371190Post evertonfc »

No issues at all with the coaching. We're playing for development, not to win at all costs.

I'm more interested in a premiership in the future, not aiming for 8th place now.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371193Post dragit »

evertonfc wrote: I'm more interested in a premiership in the future, not aiming for 8th place now.
THIS!!!


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371195Post Cairnsman »

dragit wrote:
evertonfc wrote: I'm more interested in a premiership in the future, not aiming for 8th place now.
THIS!!!
Yep!


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371204Post Greg T »

spert wrote:So all coaches are the same, none are better than the others, all are on the same level and the only factor is the players.. from my footy playing days of years gone by, excuse me if I disagree. In my time I played with some ordinary players who turned it around under different coaches(couldn't help my bung knee though). Some guys coach and don't get the message across, some are born coaches and communicators, and the effect on players can be pretty remarkable.
Sensible post spert.
If there all the same , we might s well get Mark Neeld.
Time will tell whether he's getting his message across.
Clearly a few areas haven't improved, but have backwards.
When you look back at the side from a few years ago,RL managed to
Squeeze out the utmost best out of GOP,s.
The list was good,not perfect,but he got results .
I think there's alot to be said about a good hard motivating coach.
Not just one who's good with the press.
Every club must deal with adversity,it's all about character.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371205Post Greg T »

plugger66 wrote:Lets be totally honest on here. SW has some average or young players to work with. he also has some very good older players to work with and 3 young to middle aged players to work with in Steven, Armo and ben. if you looked at our list it is certainly a better side than a 3 win for the season side. Anyone thinking otherwise is lying to themselves to feel better or lying to themselves to justify that SW is some sort of great coach for the future. I mean some rated his season 9 out of 10 for 3 wins. We have lost 9 more games than last year if we dont win another game which is now probable. We have excuses. Our backline has had good players out most of the year and we lost BJ and Gram from those positions. The people who said BJ can be replaced by Siposs are looking rather silly now.As silly as those that said Gram was no loss at all.

Now to those who think we should get rid of SW well I think they are being a bit over the top. I have little doubt some other coaches may have got us to maybe 5 or 6 wins for the season but really there isnt that much difference. SW has a contract for next year. Lets see how he goes to about this stage next year before we get rid of him or re sign him.

And to those saying I am having it both ways well they are right. dont try it by the way it hurts. Keep SW but make a decision on his future this time next year. And stop whinging about the coach because if you are now wait until we really hit rock bottom.
I have to agree with this ....well said .


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371209Post tony74 »

True Believer wrote:Naturally some guys are better coaches than others, that is true of all professions. But some teams start with advantages on thier lists. The two WA teams get a WA players with a case of the "I want to go home" at under the odds, that is n advantage Same for the WA guys.

The new teams have obvious and massive start up concessions. Sydney have a salary cap advantage, and I think a junior development system that is designed to grow participation in the game in NSW, but it acts asa junior catchemnt for them.

The "power" clubs in Melbourne have more money to spend on recruiting and development, as well as "sponsor"deals and media connections that they can use to be "more attractive" to players looking to move clubs.

The fact that the draft provides some sort of equitable levelling mechanism is a godsend, becuase it's about the only leveller there is in the whole comp.

Yes some coaches are better than others, but I think ours wil prove in the long run to be better than average, because he understands how the system works and how to get the most out of it. Keep watching this space, because, much like Ro$$ in his early days, there are plenty of critics. But then he became hot property.......
This bloke talks sense.


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Re: Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

Post: # 1371211Post Buckets »

SainterK wrote:Dunno

Surely the jury is out.

Dogs got smashed yet you can see something now that they're building towards.

I do hope we aim to get Adam Simpson from the hawks to work with our midfield.
They have been out of the 8 since 2010. The 2011-13 seasons have netted them how many wins???

2011 - 9 wins
2012 - 5 wins
2013 - 5 wins so far.

Coupled with that a few good f/s and some decent high draft picks in the last 3 years, one would hope to see them starting to build something.


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