Who the HELL????

[Dr Spaceman]

Why is this still going?
This is a football forum, can we move all non football discussion to the general forum if it is not locked.

Whilst I completely disagree with Mark's point of view, I respect his efforts and don't want to see any more of this argued out. Nothing will change either side's opinions, but surely this is not a place for its discussion.

The forum will probably stop discussing it when the media stops discussing it.

[The Fireman]

everyone on here is entitled to an opinion including Mark... anyone bullying him here should be warned by a mod.

I believe he is wrong and has overplayed his argument but he has the right to make it.

[Johnny Member]

And further to that, when arranging 'entertainment' you have few options. Dwarfs, due to their constant appearances on the Footy Show and them advertising Dwarf My Party and the rest, are somewhat of a flavour of the month.

From what I've read and heard, I don't think the dwarfs were hired so the players could stand around and laugh at them. I think you're underselling their value as professional entertainers.


I would have though dwarf security is a completely reasonable form of entertainment for both parties. Aside from it obviously being ironic, I'd hardly see it as grossly disrespectful or abhorrent on the Saints' side - and I'd hardly see an issue from a dwarf entertainers side.



My opinion - you're seeing this incident how you want to see it. You're seeing a bunch of jocks kidnapping a poor, innocent and vulnerable dwarf off the street, taking him inside to their party, standing around mocking and belittling him - then lighting him on fire and laughing about it. That was the original slant on the story in the media.

Very few, if any, people would mock your outrage if that was the case. But clearly, it is not the case. It is nowhere near the case. And if you can't see that - it's most likely because you like the first scenario much better and want it to be true.

[Con Gorozidis]

I'd give CJ the ass and trade Joey.


No di*kheads.

[plugger66]

Plugger,
The reason why I think it is a hate crime is because it may well have happened to Saints players, BUT the only non-Saints player who was targetted was the one everyone would have thought was the most vulnerable, and the one who was brought there to be mocked, laughed at, and just to be a source of amusement because they are little: Blake Johnson, a disabled person. I think it is not co-incidental that the only non-Saints person who they set fire to was the one whose sole reason for being hired was to be the source of ridicule (which is a barely disguised form of contempt), Blake Johnston. He wasn't there because Saints players have any respect for disability rights, or disabled people. He was there because Montagna (and whoever else agreed that it would be a good idea) thought "Let's bring a dwarf in, it would be funny just to have him there and laugh at him".
Then the guy who is hired to be the butt of the joke gets victimized by Clint Jones. He is set afire... because Clint Jones thought it was amusing to do so... and that fits in totally with the broader attitude that little people exist (and are hired) only to amuse non-disabled people. In this case, privileged, athletic, wealthy males.
So... you see, the whole attitude from the get-go reeks of disability abuse... get a little person because we can laugh at them for being different... and when the alcohol kicked in, and him simply being there was no longer amusing, set him on fire, because that will amuse us more. Yes, that is disability-related. And if the reason for setting him on fire is IN PART OR IN WHOLE related to the fact that he is disabled, then that is what disability advocates call a disability hate crime.

I didn't say Clint Jones will be in jail. I didn't even say I think he would be charged. I said I would like to see him in jail. That's because the precedent it would set would be so significant, it might have a detterent effect on others who have similar thoughts or who might take similar actions. And I could easily make a connection between disability discrimination, disability abuse, disability hate crimes, and the words that harm which have been so commonly bandied about in this forum.

Firstly apart from bar the stuff the only 2 people there who werent connected with the Saints were the dwarfs and one of them had their clothes lit. Surely if it was a hate crime they both would have had their clothes lit.

There is no doubt it was stupid to hire the 2 dwarfs but lets be honest thats how these guys make a living. Im betting if they dont get hired out now they will claim that they are getting picked on.

And i can give you some facts on why his clothes were set on fire. By the way it is emotive rubbish to say he was set on fire. Anyway he was set on fire because he was being treated like all the rest of the guys who had their clothes set on fire. They thought it was funny to light the clothes and sing happy birthday. it had exactly nothing to do with him being a dwarf and that is fact unless the person who told me is lying which he has no need to.

And if you want Jones in jail for setting the dwarfs clothes on fire I would hope you want all the other players to go to jail as well when they set others players clothes on fire because i think everyone apart from you has established the lighting of the clothes had nothing to do with the fact the guy was short.

[CURLY]

Hi Merchant
Thanks for your question.
I didn't say Clint Jones HATED disabled people.
Never.
What I said is that there is bias in the selection of the victim.
That is what "disability hate crime" laws are. Some people just call them "Disability bias crimes" meaning that there just has to be bias (non-random selection of victims) in order to qualify as a 'bias crime' or ''hate crime'.
'Bias crime' or 'hate crime'... these words mean the same.
So, by saying Blake was targetted because he was there solely to be the source of amusement, derision, scorn and ridicule, and that setting him afire was a part of that mindset, says that there is a connection between him being a little person and him being the victim of a crime.
I've never said Clint Jones hates disabled people. I use the term 'hate crime' because that is the disability movement's preferred language; I could have simply "bias crime" (and that might have appealed more to a nondisabled audience, but that was never the point).
This event is a clarion call for disability awareness in AFL. Disabled people deserve respect, not scorn, derision, violence and abuse. And clearly these privileged players need to be educated on that.
There is an epidemic of violence and abuse against disabled people; one way that disabled people's lives can be made safer is by education. Another is by seriously punishing those offenders who harm disabled people (such as by setting them on fire).

Yes yes we all heard your muck raking now just stop and get off.

[Johnny Member]

So, by saying Blake was targetted because he was there solely to be the source of amusement, derision, scorn and ridicule, and that setting him afire was a part of that mindset, says that there is a connection between him being a little person and him being the victim of a crime.

Fair dinkum. What a load of bulls***.


That is a huge, massive assumption to make. If anything, I think stating based on pure speculation, that a dwarf would only ever be hired for entertainment is for the above reasons - is probably more offensive to dwarfs than lighting their jocks on fire.

[CURLY]

I'd give CJ the ass and trade Joey.


No di*kheads.

Oh please.

[Devilhead]

I posted earlier that it was quoted on the Little People of America website that there is much conjecture between little people whether the tem "disabled" should actually be applied to them.

Yet nothing not even a skerrick of a reply from Mark on this particularly point.

You see for some reason or another - which Mark obviously wants to keep to himself which is his perogative - he Seems to have a massive axe to grind

From what I can gather there are are quite few little people out there that a fighting like mad to be NOT labelled as being "disabled" unfortunately there people out there like Mark who insist on labelling everyone of short stature "disabled" whether they like it or not.

Is Mark being discriminatory against little people that dont want to be burdened with the label "disabled"??

Well I will leave that up to you to decide.

Either way this completely stupid act perpertrated by CJ could only be considered a hate crime if CJ has a deep burning hatred for little people - does Cj have a deep burning hatred for little people? - well his grovelling apology more than likely says no

no doubt Mark's heart is in the right place - maybe a tad left of centre - and it is admirable that he has decided to spend his time helping others that he feels may need a helping hand - unfortunately his drive has given him a little tunnel vision which happens to all of us during our lifetime.

We can only hope that CJ and the general public learn that lighting peoples clothes on fire is a pretty immature and dumb thing to do - labelling his act as a hate crime when its not is is just as dumb and stupid as it can only lead to further misguided and completely unecssary hatred and that is something the world could do without.

[SENsei]

Plugger,
The reason why I think it is a hate crime is because it may well have happened to Saints players, BUT the only non-Saints player who was targetted was the one everyone would have thought was the most vulnerable, and the one who was brought there to be mocked, laughed at, and just to be a source of amusement because they are little: Blake Johnson, a disabled person.

Hang on. He was brought there? He makes his living on making himself available to be mocked. Not my cup of tea but that is his schtick. He is pushing this publicity as far as he can for his own personal gain. He's certainly not on any disability crusade.

[Dr Spaceman]

The only hatred on display from CJ appears to be a hatred of unburnt clothing.

[Moorabbin Man]

markinUSA why don't you contact Blake and offer your sympathy in regard to his disability. I'm sure he'll tell you to take a running jump.

[plugger66]

I posted earlier that it was quoted on the Little People of America website that there is much conjecture between little people whether the tem "disabled" should actually be applied to them.

Yet nothing not even a skerrick of a reply from Mark on this particularly point.

You see for some reason or another - which Mark obviously wants to keep to himself which is his perogative - he Seems to have a massive axe to grind

From what I can gather there are are quite few little people out there that a fighting like mad to be NOT labelled as being "disabled" unfortunately there people out there like Mark who insist on labelling everyone of short stature "disabled" whether they like it or not.

Is Mark being discriminatory against little people that dont want to be burdened with the label "disabled"??

Well I will leave that up to you to decide.

Either way this completely stupid act perpertrated by CJ could only be considered a hate crime if CJ has a deep burning hatred for little people - does Cj have a deep burning hatred for little people? - well his grovelling apology more than likely says no

no doubt Mark's heart is in the right place - maybe a tad left of centre - and it is admirable that he has decided to spend his time helping others that he feels may need a helping hand - unfortunately his drive has given him a little tunnel vision which happens to all of us during our lifetime.

We can only hope that CJ and the general public learn that lighting peoples clothes on fire is a pretty immature and dumb thing to do - labelling his act as a hate crime when its not is is just as dumb and stupid as it can only lead to further misguided and completely unecssary hatred and that is something the world could do without.

Exactly.

[Kickit]

Hi Merchant
Thanks for your question.
I didn't say Clint Jones HATED disabled people.
Never.
What I said is that there is bias in the selection of the victim.
That is what "disability hate crime" laws are. Some people just call them "Disability bias crimes" meaning that there just has to be bias (non-random selection of victims) in order to qualify as a 'bias crime' or ''hate crime'.
'Bias crime' or 'hate crime'... these words mean the same.
So, by saying Blake was targetted because he was there solely to be the source of amusement, derision, scorn and ridicule, and that setting him afire was a part of that mindset, says that there is a connection between him being a little person and him being the victim of a crime.
I've never said Clint Jones hates disabled people. I use the term 'hate crime' because that is the disability movement's preferred language; I could have simply "bias crime" (and that might have appealed more to a nondisabled audience, but that was never the point).
This event is a clarion call for disability awareness in AFL. Disabled people deserve respect, not scorn, derision, violence and abuse. And clearly these privileged players need to be educated on that.
There is an epidemic of violence and abuse against disabled people; one way that disabled people's lives can be made safer is by education. Another is by seriously punishing those offenders who harm disabled people (such as by setting them on fire).

I read the news a bit, and Its appalling how much violent crime is being reported.
I am most concerned about the increase in shootings in Australia.
I would consider that most reports are stabbings and bashings outside nightclubs.

I have to ask though, why do you consider that there is an "epidemic of violence" against disabled people,. Its very rare that I read about such a crime. And you might call me a "hater" but I have far less concern for young Blake and his singed pants, than I do for those with serious injuries caused by the violent crime I have previously described.
Are you suggesting that people committing crimes against Dwarves should have more sever punishment than those committing similar crimes against the non-dwarf population? Do you not consider that you may actually incite hate by introducing such a system.

You are simply wrong. Just because something bad happens to a dwarf doesn't mean it happens because he's a dwarf. Don't you see that you are discriminating in your own thinking by taking this line?

[mullet]

I hope this doesnt effect their business of dwarfing ones parties.

If we follow Mark in USA's philosophy, then we are creating a Hate Crime by hiring them. Someone may laugh, someone may bump into them in a drunken stupor, but of course
only bump into the dwarf and no one else. Some drunk old uncle from the dark ages may say something inappropriate.

The fear of creating a hate crime may stop their ability to earn $400 per hour.

What if someone wants to dance with them, because they are a dwarf, or have a photo with them. (see website dwarfmyparty.com)

I really hope their business doesnt suffer, as it hard to earn a buck these days.

[Devilhead]

Im sure there are a lot of people of short stature in the world that just want to be seen and labelled as "people"

unfortunately when you keep getting constant reminders that you are different and you are disabled even though he feel you aren't must be extremely frustrating.

[Dr Spaceman]

I hope this doesnt effect their business of dwarfing ones parties.

If we follow Mark in USA's philosophy, then we are creating a Hate Crime by hiring them. Someone may laugh, someone may bump into them in a drunken stupor, but of course
only bump into the dwarf and no one else. Some drunk old uncle from the dark ages may say something inappropriate.

The fear of creating a hate crime may stop their ability to earn $400 per hour.

What if someone wants to dance with them, because they are a dwarf, or have a photo with them. (see website dwarfmyparty.com)

I really hope their business doesnt suffer, as it hard to earn a buck these days.

The reason one would go to a dwarf wrestling match is because they look funny when they wrestle (I'm guessing cos I've never actually been to one). Sure they may have done lots of training etc, but spectators would not be drawn to the contest with the thought of viewing high class sport. They want to laugh.

And so we laugh at them because they are dwarfs. However we are told this is a hate crime. But they set themselves up as an entertainment company so that they can earn a livng and make money from us watching them and laughing at them because they are dwarfs. Are the dwarfs themselves guilty of encouraging hate crimes towards dwarfs?

It all gets bloody confusing!

[Johnny Member]

I think it's unfair that Joey clearly requested midgets - but was sent dwarfs.


I'd refuse to pay too.

[Kickit]

I hope this doesnt effect their business of dwarfing ones parties.

If we follow Mark in USA's philosophy, then we are creating a Hate Crime by hiring them. Someone may laugh, someone may bump into them in a drunken stupor, but of course
only bump into the dwarf and no one else. Some drunk old uncle from the dark ages may say something inappropriate.

The fear of creating a hate crime may stop their ability to earn $400 per hour.

What if someone wants to dance with them, because they are a dwarf, or have a photo with them. (see website dwarfmyparty.com)

I really hope their business doesnt suffer, as it hard to earn a buck these days.

A Stark no doubt... He will pay for treating a Lannister in such a way.
( Hmmm I hope Tyrion doesn't end up battling against Danaeris , she hasn't nicknamed any of the dragon's CJ has she )?

[gringo]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

Forget what these people say because they dont have all the facts. Can you tell us why it is a hate crime when it happened to many other people at the venue. Im sure everyone here thinks it was stupid but i reckon you are out on your own saying its a hate crime. it makes no sense at all IMO. If you could explain instead of giving us one eyed articles.

I hate myself for agreeing with plugger for a change.

[mullet]

Here's another story, written by a little person who identifies as disabled, who also says that some people would call Blake's case a disability hate crime.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... red-people

Part of the article states"If the St Kilda player in question did, in fact, set Johnston alight, then some people might think this is the equivalent of a hate crime. He must take responsibility for crossing a line."

Forget what these people say because they dont have all the facts. Can you tell us why it is a hate crime when it happened to many other people at the venue. Im sure everyone here thinks it was stupid but i reckon you are out on your own saying its a hate crime. it makes no sense at all IMO. If you could explain instead of giving us one eyed articles.

I hate myself for agreeing with plugger for a change.

Its not a crime to hate plugger (sorry plugger)

[markp]

I hate myself for agreeing with plugger for a change.

Its not a crime to hate plugger (sorry plugger)

It is if he's a dwarf.

[plugger66]

I hate myself for agreeing with plugger for a change.

Its not a crime to hate plugger (sorry plugger)

It is if he's a dwarf.

Im not only a dwarf but my last name is Duthie.

[mullet]

[quote="plugger66quote="gringo"]

I hate myself for agreeing with plugger for a change.[/quote]

Its not a crime to hate plugger (sorry plugger)[/quote]

It is if he's a dwarf.[/quote]


Im not only a dwarf but my last name is Duthie.[/quote]

How are the twins

[markinUSA]

Kickit,

Regarding the rate of violence against disabled people - there is a litany of evidence. It is such a big problem that Women With Disabilities Australia has been calling for a Royal Commission or Official Public Inquiry into Violence Against People with Disabilities in Australia for over a year now.
http://www.wwda.org.au/Summary_and_Recommendations.pdf

It depends on the type of disability. e.g. "People with an intellectual disability are almost three times more likely than those without a disability to be victims of physical assault, sexual assault and robbery" http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/F/6/A/% ... 7Dti60.pdf

The numbers are remarkably consistent cross-nationally.
An American study found "Depending on the type of violent crime (rape/sexual assault, robbery, assault, and their subcategories), prevalence was 6 to 23 times greater among persons with SMI than among the general population. "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1389236/

It is an international problem. In 2007, the European Parliament commissioned research taht found that almost 80 per cent of women with disabilities are victims of violence. It's cited in this resolution
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 60:EN:HTML