Who the HELL????

[matrix]

the important question is........


how big is that f****** signature pic of the NFL saints??!!

i mean cmon
ffs tone it down a tad


and wtf are we still goin on about this rubbish for?
seriously....30 pages?

let me guess
a moral compass is still floating about

[Bluthy]

and wtf are we still goin on about this rubbish for?
seriously....30 pages?
:

And yet you keep posting to it.....I always laugh when people post on a topic criticising people for posting on a topic.

[Dr Spaceman]

It's been a week. One whole bloody week!!!













Anyone know how the little fella's going? Have they moved him out of the burns unit yet?

[stevie]

the important question is........


how big is that f****** signature pic of the NFL saints??!!

i mean cmon
ffs tone it down a tad


and wtf are we still goin on about this rubbish for?
seriously....30 pages?

let me guess
a moral compass is still floating about

Sorry about the large sig, which is the 49ers not New Orleans. I was wondering if someone would complain about it. The thumbnail one is the current one but its a tad small but the other one is too big. So I'll stay with the smaller one, cheers

[Bluthy]

It's been a week. One whole bloody week!!!

Anyone know how the little fella's going? Have they moved him out of the burns unit yet?

Hate to break it to you Doc but this will haunt the club for years. In terms of public relations it doesn't get any worse than "dwarf burning". Jesus even the footy show thought it was too off to touch it. The footy show! Everyone will forget Clinton Jones and the details but they'll remember St Kilda as the dwarf burning club for years. That's why this has become a 30 page thread. That's why the players gave up their time to do a video apology to members (and sponsers) and cancelled end of year trip. They now realise where the club is at: "Its not the St Kilda we want". They couldn't be clearer - this has been a wake up call and shouldn't be ignored. I don't know why half the posters on the site don't realise that too. They're calling Lenny, Nic, Jack and the entire playing list liars. Maybe we should accept it as it has come from the horses mouth.

[spert]

Yep it's a PR nightmare for an AFL club, not just a throw-away thing that can be laughed under the table at a country footy club piss up. We really do need strong leadership on and off the field starting now, and the pressure will be right on for the team to get off to a winning start next season so we can repair some of the damage.

[Bluthy]

pressure will be right on for the team to get off to a winning start next season so we can repair some of the damage.

And thats the other big issue - the club is entering a critical phase. We will be down the bottom for at least 2-3 years. From what I've seen Watters and the club seems to be on the right track but what if they're not? A lot of first time coaches fail. With GWS, GC and Melbourne loaded up on early draft picks we could struggle for 7-8 years if they don't get it right. Membership and attendances are already dropping. We're locked into a Etihad deal that kills us financially. Sponsors aint gunna be climbing all over themselves to get aboard the on-field struggling low membership dwarf burning club train. And Tassie keep pushing for a team in the AFL and the AFL want to complete their domination in all states of Australia......

Run for the hills!!!

Alright I'm being an alarmist pillock now. But a lot of my points stand.

[Dave McNamara]

Onya Kristen!

the brief era of aspiring to be tolerant is now OVER

So it seems.

At the risk of putting words into other people's mouths, maybe part of Mark's message is a call for respect for people with disabilities (supporters of the skunks aside of course)?

Maybe it wasn't the fact that one of the people who's life Flint briefly lit up was a dwarf that upset Mark?

Maybe it was more to do with the ongoing gags that followed, and followed, and followed.


These gags wouldn't 'work' if about any of the other flaming shirts Flint ignited. But they 'work' because Blake (new stage name is now Blaze, I hear) is also a dwarf.

And so the gags kept coming. The sheer volume hints at a possible underlying, if even subconscious, lack of respect. And this can, and does, lead to the very real problem of people with a disability being vulnerable to harm...

A wide range of motivational factors appeared to be connected to these homicides. Some cases appeared to involve simple neglect or elimination of a caregiving responsibility. Some involved a belief that the homicide would go unnoticed or unpunished or a belief that killing someone with a disability is a less serious offense because that person is already "damaged merchandise."
http://www.ccdonline.ca/en/humanrights/ ... r/2000/05b

Now absolutely not even on the same planet as the above, but still possibly the start of a slippery slope that some people can descend, because it adds a further element of devaluing, of a lack of respect...

They have disputed all the allegations and only admit Rich pushed Partridge for about 10m along the footpath.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... 6713601540

From reading the Rich article, and regardless of what else he did or didn't do, seriously guys, imagine how scary and humiliating it could be for anyone, let alone someone in a wheelchair? To have an unknown (probably) drunk yob suddenly run up and start rapidly pushing their wheelchair? Only 10m in the end, but how would that bloke know how long it was to last? What would happen next? The very real danger of falling out...?

How scary would that be...?


Guys and gals, I didn't take Mark as accusing anyone here of that. More so, I take Mark to be trying to raise an awareness of where devaluing certain 'types' of people can (in certain circumstances) lead.

So, not necessarily an attack on Flint or our club per se, but more a concern expressed by Mark re the comedy reaction to one of Flint's human torches, solely because that individual is also a dwarf.

Mark (IMHO) is simply trying to raise some awareness that beyond the good natured humour there is also the danger of a darker side, the perpetuation of a lack of respect, of devaluing, and, even real harm to some.

I guess what I'm trying to clumsily get across is, please don't take offence at Mark, please just maybe give some thought to the underlying message, even if not every is not totally happy with so elements of how it's packaged.

the brief era of aspiring to be tolerant is now OVER

So it seems... or maybe not...

Disability awareness for AFL players... why not?

Can't do any harm. Our reigning B&F certainly thought it was a great thing to do... and his team mates, along with the Geelong players, all seemed to agree...





PS: Mark, if it hasn't happened yet, please take the club's call. This can be sorted.

[markinUSA]

As a disabled person, as someone who has been burnt by another person and had multiple skin grafts, and as someone who has spent the majority of his life advocating about violence against disabled people, I can barely describe how much this issue has affected me.

Yes, I was too upset to take the call the other day.

I did today.

I wasn't making an idle comment when I said this is not a safe place for disabled people - the 'jokes' about burning someone who is disabled aren't funny in the slightest. They triggered a lot of PTSD in me, and an emormous amount of anger. I've cried and raged for days.

The only allies I've found, who truly 'got' the effect of this event, were disabled people and disability organizations. This place was one of the worst I've encountered... people sending me messages here or on social media telling me to hang myself. I won't visit again after this post. I'm sure many of you will be thrilled... good luck to you.

I spoke to Michael today. I won't tell you the conversation; but I will say he is a very caring, upright person and he genuinely listened to me. I am glad St Kilda has a person like him.

[dragit]

You may not read this Mark, but I am sorry to hear of your terrible experience and this recent incident triggering further suffering.

It sounds like you have done some great work in the area of disability rights, most people can appreciate this.

[joffaboy]

I wasn't making an idle comment when I said this is not a safe place for disabled people - the 'jokes' about burning someone who is disabled aren't funny in the slightest. They triggered a lot of PTSD in me, and an emormous amount of anger. I've cried and raged for days.

You need some serious councilling.

Instead of attacking all of us, engaging Godwins law and references to the holocaust, take a step back from a football forum, and sort out your own psycholocigal scars. We are not your therapists, and we are not orges either.

You have no idea what others have had happened to them in their personal lives, what contact or personal relationships people on here have had with disabled people, however you go off half cocked and think you have the right to label and judge us.

No sympathy for you, go and get some professional help and stop this deluded crusade.

Oh and when i say get professional help, I dont mean theat in an abusive way, like youa re crackers, however you say you have PTSD and cried for days. Well that is not the reaction of a healthy psych and you need to get in contact with your doctor if you are not already. I urge you for your own sanity.

[Kickit]

So its all decided.
If the Saints are in contact with a "disabled" person again, they wont treat him like "one of the boy's". They'll tiptoe around him with kid-gloves, they'll treat him/her nicely and politely while secretly hoping he/she leaves so they can get on with their fun.

I hope there were no disabled people at Hiroshima prior to the end of the war, because it would be terrible how the US victimised them if there were.

[plugger66]

As a disabled person, as someone who has been burnt by another person and had multiple skin grafts, and as someone who has spent the majority of his life advocating about violence against disabled people, I can barely describe how much this issue has affected me.

Yes, I was too upset to take the call the other day.

I did today.

I wasn't making an idle comment when I said this is not a safe place for disabled people - the 'jokes' about burning someone who is disabled aren't funny in the slightest. They triggered a lot of PTSD in me, and an emormous amount of anger. I've cried and raged for days.

The only allies I've found, who truly 'got' the effect of this event, were disabled people and disability organizations. This place was one of the worst I've encountered... people sending me messages here or on social media telling me to hang myself. I won't visit again after this post. I'm sure many of you will be thrilled... good luck to you.

I spoke to Michael today. I won't tell you the conversation; but I will say he is a very caring, upright person and he genuinely listened to me. I am glad St Kilda has a person like him.

You need to stop with they burnt him because he was disabled. he wasnt burnt firstly and secondly his clothes were burnt because he was in the same place as everyone else who had their clothes burnt. It was stupid, it was childish but it had zero to do with the person being a dwarf.

And anyone sending those messages is clearly a friggin idiot and you should ignore them.

[joffaboy]

Glad you are not visiting here again.

You are an extremist and a zealot, a hypocrite and bring nothing to the conversation but abuse and accusations.

I am glad to see you wont post here again.

[sunsaint]

Glad you are not visiting here again.

You are an extremist and a zealot, a hypocrite and bring nothing to the conversation but abuse and accusations.

I am glad to see you wont post here again.

dont understand why you need to kick him twice on the way out

[SainterK]

As a disabled person, as someone who has been burnt by another person and had multiple skin grafts, and as someone who has spent the majority of his life advocating about violence against disabled people, I can barely describe how much this issue has affected me.

Yes, I was too upset to take the call the other day.

I did today.

I wasn't making an idle comment when I said this is not a safe place for disabled people - the 'jokes' about burning someone who is disabled aren't funny in the slightest. They triggered a lot of PTSD in me, and an emormous amount of anger. I've cried and raged for days.

The only allies I've found, who truly 'got' the effect of this event, were disabled people and disability organizations. This place was one of the worst I've encountered... people sending me messages here or on social media telling me to hang myself. I won't visit again after this post. I'm sure many of you will be thrilled... good luck to you.

I spoke to Michael today. I won't tell you the conversation; but I will say he is a very caring, upright person and he genuinely listened to me. I am glad St Kilda has a person like him.

This place is no refuge Mark, it's certainly not somewhere to seek solace or find comfort.

Of course the place you should be turning to is an organisation equipped and resourced to help you and understand your plight.

I'm glad you spoke to Michael, I'm glad it comforted you somewhat.

I'm saddened to hear the kind of flack you got, I'm also sad to hear you tarnish us all with the same brush.

A saints forum with thousands of registered users, a minuscule amount of fools shouldn't represent us all.

Understand you wanting to steer clear, it's probably best you take a break.

[SemperFidelis]

As a disabled person, as someone who has been burnt by another person and had multiple skin grafts, and as someone who has spent the majority of his life advocating about violence against disabled people, I can barely describe how much this issue has affected me.

Yes, I was too upset to take the call the other day.

I did today.

I wasn't making an idle comment when I said this is not a safe place for disabled people - the 'jokes' about burning someone who is disabled aren't funny in the slightest. They triggered a lot of PTSD in me, and an emormous amount of anger. I've cried and raged for days.

The only allies I've found, who truly 'got' the effect of this event, were disabled people and disability organizations. This place was one of the worst I've encountered... people sending me messages here or on social media telling me to hang myself. I won't visit again after this post. I'm sure many of you will be thrilled... good luck to you.

I spoke to Michael today. I won't tell you the conversation; but I will say he is a very caring, upright person and he genuinely listened to me. I am glad St Kilda has a person like him.

Best wishes Mark. I am sure that many of us understand the emotive nature of your earlier posts better having read your last post.

I am also sure that you also probably appreciate that without having had your own experience, many of us found it difficult to understand your immediate leap to conclusions of criminality, given that none of us were there at the time. That doesn't mean we all found the reported conduct acceptable, or that many of us hadn't expressed our own disapproval directly or indirectly to the club.

Glad you found you were able to speak to Nettlefold today, and good luck for your future endeavours. I personally am very sorry that you were subject to threats of violence. I should think that is the absolute opposite of what this site is meant to be about.

Maybe one day you'll be in a place to come back to talk about the footy.

[evo]

As a disabled person, as someone who has been burnt by another person and had multiple skin grafts, and as someone who has spent the majority of his life advocating about violence against disabled people, I can barely describe how much this issue has affected me.

Yes, I was too upset to take the call the other day.

I did today.

I wasn't making an idle comment when I said this is not a safe place for disabled people - the 'jokes' about burning someone who is disabled aren't funny in the slightest. They triggered a lot of PTSD in me, and an emormous amount of anger. I've cried and raged for days.

The only allies I've found, who truly 'got' the effect of this event, were disabled people and disability organizations. This place was one of the worst I've encountered... people sending me messages here or on social media telling me to hang myself. I won't visit again after this post. I'm sure many of you will be thrilled... good luck to you.

I spoke to Michael today. I won't tell you the conversation; but I will say he is a very caring, upright person and he genuinely listened to me. I am glad St Kilda has a person like him.

You need to stop with they burnt him because he was disabled. he wasnt burnt firstly and secondly his clothes were burnt because he was in the same place as everyone else who had their clothes burnt. It was stupid, it was childish but it had zero to do with the person being a dwarf.

And anyone sending those messages is clearly a friggin idiot and you should ignore them.

For once I agree with you Plugs

[ShanghaiSaint]

As a disabled person, as someone who has been burnt by another person and had multiple skin grafts, and as someone who has spent the majority of his life advocating about violence against disabled people, I can barely describe how much this issue has affected me.

Yes, I was too upset to take the call the other day.

I did today.

I wasn't making an idle comment when I said this is not a safe place for disabled people - the 'jokes' about burning someone who is disabled aren't funny in the slightest. They triggered a lot of PTSD in me, and an emormous amount of anger. I've cried and raged for days.

The only allies I've found, who truly 'got' the effect of this event, were disabled people and disability organizations. This place was one of the worst I've encountered... people sending me messages here or on social media telling me to hang myself. I won't visit again after this post. I'm sure many of you will be thrilled... good luck to you.

I spoke to Michael today. I won't tell you the conversation; but I will say he is a very caring, upright person and he genuinely listened to me. I am glad St Kilda has a person like him.

You have taken a non event turned it into the crime of the century. just so you can jump up on your pedestal and cry for every one to shower you with attention and respect.

i don't buy it and what you have done in my case anyway to think you're mentally disturbed fruit cake that should not have access to the internet.

You have a cause great, go fight it... just before u start a fight get your bloody facts straight, so you don't come off looking like a nutter.

[joffaboy]

Glad you are not visiting here again.

You are an extremist and a zealot, a hypocrite and bring nothing to the conversation but abuse and accusations.

I am glad to see you wont post here again.

dont understand why you need to kick him twice on the way out

doesn't matter he wont read it anyway, or is he one of those grandstanding posters who proclaim to the world they are never posting here again (but do anyway).

Why proclaim it, just go away, nobody will miss an hysteric. And my fist post wasn't kicking him on the way out.

Someone pouring their psychological heart out on a football forum is someone whose health I genuinely fear for.

However I wont treat someone who has abused and judged and labelled many of us bigots, and accused us of hate crimes towards the disabled, with kid gloves.

There are real injustices in the world and this bloke takes a stupid, idiotic, immature, foolish and embarrassing prank, and equates it to Hitler, the holocaust and eugenics

These hysterical and extreme views need and deserve to be challenged.

i feel bad for the individual named mark. I feel for his personal injustices. I feel for the fact that some monster attacked him as a disabled person and by what he says burnt him, but the projection of this terrible and personal experiences have no bearing on the mindless idiocies of some footballers.

Anyway done with this, done with mark.

[ShanghaiSaint]

Glad you are not visiting here again.

You are an extremist and a zealot, a hypocrite and bring nothing to the conversation but abuse and accusations.

I am glad to see you wont post here again.

dont understand why you need to kick him twice on the way out

doesn't matter he wont read it anyway, or is he one of those grandstanding posters who proclaim to the world they are never posting here again (but do anyway).

Why proclaim it, just go away, nobody will miss an hysteric. And my fist post wasn't kicking him on the way out.

Someone pouring their psychological heart out on a football forum is someone whose health I genuinely fear for.

However I wont treat someone who has abused and judged and labelled many of us bigots, and accused us of hate crimes towards the disabled, with kid gloves.

There are real injustices in the world and this bloke takes a stupid, idiotic, immature, foolish and embarrassing prank, and equates it to Hitler, the holocaust and eugenics

These hysterical and extreme views need and deserve to be challenged.

i feel bad for the individual named mark. I feel for his personal injustices. I feel for the fact that some monster attacked him as a disabled person and by what he says burnt him, but the projection of this terrible and personal experiences have no bearing on the mindless idiocies of some footballers.

Anyway done with this, done with mark.

Jof claims are claim... i can also make a million on here. they seamed to get more and more personally tragic as the markinUSA saga rolled on. I don't buy what he was pitching at all. if it's true its terrible. but who knows..... the internet is a crazy place... but i did take major exception to the rediculas comparisons he was making.

Here's a guy that was drunk and made a dumb prank. Mark decides he's on par with the biggest monster in history. give me a fraaking break.

[Dave McNamara]

You need to stop with they burnt him because he was disabled. he wasnt burnt firstly and secondly his clothes were burnt because he was in the same place as everyone else who had their clothes burnt. It was stupid, it was childish but it had zero to do with the person being a dwarf.

Pluggs I reckon that the basics of what you write is correct.

I also suspect that the on-going jokes that did result from that person being a dwarf, and the danger that such can add a little more fuel to the fire that devalues people with a 'disability' . This in turn can and does (if you look at examples like those Mark posted a link to), lead to such people being put at physical risk.

So no, I don't see Mark's posts as an attack on our club or even on Flint, but an expression of concern (and also sadly and clearly, an expression of personal anguish), as he has personally seen where this concerted 'humour' can unintentionally lead.

Again, our reigning B&F, our other players, and the Geelong players all thought that a bit of disability awareness raising was a good thing to do.

And anyone sending those messages is clearly a friggin idiot and you should ignore them.

"You should go hang yourself."

Wow! Is that the sorta' stuff some people PM'd to Mark???

If true, that sounds like forum-expulsion worthy to me... though I'd prefer a simple apology to Mark for what were probably (bloody well hope so) heat of the moment outbursts.

As K rightly said, a small number outta' the thousands of Saintsationalists are giving us, and the club also, a bad name. Come on you guys, lift your game... we know you can.

[Kickit]

From time to time you get in a social situation, where people are stuffing around and someone who is overly politically correct gets deeply offended.
Yeah you could escalate it, but more often people want to keep the peace so its embarrassed apologies and awkward politeness,
Take it out of the public and put it on an anonymous internet forum and its very different.

The Saints apologised but is that what they really think, or are they simply appeasing the outraged moralists.

I maintain that :
Dwarves are not necessarily disabled.
Disabled people can be stupid, or smart, caring or assholes, honest or dishonest, a pleasure to associate with or a pain in the arse JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
Its very discriminative to think otherwise.

Therefore I consider it discriminative to treat smart disabled people as if they were stupid and stupid disabled people as if they were smart.
Its discriminative not to treat disabled assholes as if they are in fact nice.
Its certainly discriminative to deal with this StKilda issue as a special "Dwarf" thing , when in fact it was just another person at the function.

Is there a flaw in this logic?

[saintbrat]

there may be many disabled people on this forum- but generally all on this forum are Saints supporters- so have a commonality
there are many people who are christian, athiest, female, male, and all the rest of the variety that is Australia and the human race.
If people / posters object to variety then North Korea may be the place for you. Tolerance has been one of the basis of Australian society for many years- it's not alway perfect, it can seem to be along way from perfect-
But I always feel its best to give both sides a chance to explain themselves and that did not and has not happened with this event.

I beleive a Phone call at the Time the information came out would have still gotten a caring and informed response- - rather than the selected option which continued to exacerbate the angst and extend the affect on St Kilda-- and the person who felt agrieved.

[Bluthy]

OP nailed it when naming this thread. This has been a dark descent into the club and supporters unconscious. A dangerous journey but perhaps one that was needed for us to evolve.

Interestingly in dreams "a dwarf may mean an aspect of you that is not fully developed or has been repressed. You may be feeling inferior or insignificant."

Were we trying to burn away the inferiority we feel with only one premiership? Were we using the purification of fire to cleanse ourselves after coming agonisingly close not once but twice and we had tried to repress the pain. Are the gods of fate indicating as a club we need to "grow up" stop thinking of ourselves as small and foolish. Dwarfs were often the jesters in the kings court. They were the only one's who were allowed to speak the truth to the king because no one took him seriously. Did the dwarf jester not tell us a truth we were afraid to hear?

Also apparently Miley has new video where she spanks a dwarf. I don't know what that represents, but by god I'm going to watch it.