To every one that craps on about Lyon...

[SydneySainter]

Ross is arguably the best coach in the AFL. Personally, I think he is the best coach in the AFL.

As for how he left our club, I hated the way he did and think it was extremely two-faced from his part. Maybe if the club offered him an extension earlier they could have kept him, maybe he had no interest in rebuilding our list, maybe the off field dramas were getting to him, maybe the Pelchen signing pissed him off, maybe he was just jack of the admin and always going to go.

Regardless, when he first came to the Saints, I think people overrate the list he inherited. It was good, but had bigger problems than most think - Powell and Peckett retired, Gehrig and Voss had one more year left, Hamill and Goose finished, X and extremely injury prone and Ball and Kosi already passed his 05 form. Still a great top 6, but not a dream team and yet we still made consecutive GF's and drew against a team who were streets ahead of us in terms of talent.

The holes left in our list due to poor drafting and trading for "role players" is well documented and I believe Lyon was a big architect in that, being the control freak he is.

When he went to Freo, I didn't rate their list to be all that much better than ours in 2011 and yet only after two seasons he's got them playing the way he wants to, beating the Cats in a final at Kardinia Park and in their first GF in history.

Love him or hate him, the man is a VERY good coach.

[Moods]

Ross is arguably the best coach in the AFL. Personally, I think he is the best coach in the AFL.

As for how he left our club, I hated the way he did and think it was extremely two-faced from his part. Maybe if the club offered him an extension earlier they could have kept him, maybe he had no interest in rebuilding our list, maybe the off field dramas were getting to him, maybe the Pelchen signing pissed him off, maybe he was just jack of the admin and always going to go.

Regardless, when he first came to the Saints, I think people overrate the list he inherited. It was good, but had bigger problems than most think - Powell and Peckett retired, Gehrig and Voss had one more year left, Hamill and Goose finished, X and extremely injury prone and Ball and Kosi already passed his 05 form. Still a great top 6, but not a dream team and yet we still made consecutive GF's and drew against a team who were streets ahead of us in terms of talent.

The holes left in our list due to poor drafting and trading for "role players" is well documented and I believe Lyon was a big architect in that, being the control freak he is.

When he went to Freo, I didn't rate their list to be all that much better than ours in 2011 and yet only after two seasons he's got them playing the way he wants to, beating the Cats in a final at Kardinia Park and in their first GF in history.

Love him or hate him, the man is a VERY good coach.

+1

[Cairnsman]

Freo had one of the most promising lists going around in 2011 and unfortunately they were cruelled by injury that year. Freo have an awesome list and are coached by a very good coach that is well suited to the list, it's why I picked them to win the flag at the start of this season. But until RL wins a flag Clarko will remain the better coach because he has a flag.

So Chris Scott is a better coach as well and it was his first year. He must have gone backwards after that as a coach because they havent won since. its far to simple to base everything on winning a flag.

Not basing everything on just winning a flag but it puts a fairly big full stop on the difference between coaches like Clarko and Chris Scott and any comparison with RL. He has to win next week or there will be a massive question mark on his ability to lead a team from victory in a preliminary final to victory in a GF. Could it be that one of his flaws is exposed during the build-up to and during a GF. His other possible flaw will always be debated until such time he his installed as head coach to lead a re-build and that is where Clarko has a more well rounded CV.

If RL never wins a flag then history will treat him just like every other coach that made it to the big dance but couldn't get his team to bring home the silverware.

[plugger66]

Freo had one of the most promising lists going around in 2011 and unfortunately they were cruelled by injury that year. Freo have an awesome list and are coached by a very good coach that is well suited to the list, it's why I picked them to win the flag at the start of this season. But until RL wins a flag Clarko will remain the better coach because he has a flag.

So Chris Scott is a better coach as well and it was his first year. He must have gone backwards after that as a coach because they havent won since. its far to simple to base everything on winning a flag.

Not basing everything on just winning a flag but it puts a fairly big full stop on the difference between coaches like Clarko and Chris Scott and any comparison with RL. He has to win next week or there will be a massive question mark on his ability to lead a team from victory in a preliminary final to victory in a GF. Could it be that one of his flaws is exposed during the build-up to and during a GF. His other possible flaw will always be debated until such time he his installed as head coach to lead a re-build and that is where Clarko has a more well rounded CV.

If RL never wins a flag then history will treat him just like every other coach that made it to the big dance but couldn't get his team to bring home the silverware.

Fair enough but was Chris Scott ever a better coach than RL?

[Cairnsman]

So Chris Scott is a better coach as well and it was his first year. He must have gone backwards after that as a coach because they havent won since. its far to simple to base everything on winning a flag.

Not basing everything on just winning a flag but it puts a fairly big full stop on the difference between coaches like Clarko and Chris Scott and any comparison with RL. He has to win next week or there will be a massive question mark on his ability to lead a team from victory in a preliminary final to victory in a GF. Could it be that one of his flaws is exposed during the build-up to and during a GF. His other possible flaw will always be debated until such time he his installed as head coach to lead a re-build and that is where Clarko has a more well rounded CV.

If RL never wins a flag then history will treat him just like every other coach that made it to the big dance but couldn't get his team to bring home the silverware.

Fair enough but was Chris Scott ever a better coach than RL?

As it stand now...yep! 1 flag to Nil is the current scoreboard and only when both their careers are over will we be able to completely argue who was the better coach.

[plugger66]

Not basing everything on just winning a flag but it puts a fairly big full stop on the difference between coaches like Clarko and Chris Scott and any comparison with RL. He has to win next week or there will be a massive question mark on his ability to lead a team from victory in a preliminary final to victory in a GF. Could it be that one of his flaws is exposed during the build-up to and during a GF. His other possible flaw will always be debated until such time he his installed as head coach to lead a re-build and that is where Clarko has a more well rounded CV.

If RL never wins a flag then history will treat him just like every other coach that made it to the big dance but couldn't get his team to bring home the silverware.

Fair enough but was Chris Scott ever a better coach than RL?

As it stand now...yep! 1 flag to Nil is the current scoreboard and only when both their careers are over will we be able to completely argue who was the better coach.

Well that just proves how stupid it is to just a coach on winning a flag because Chris Scott would now be a better coach than he was in his first year and he hasnt won one since. Of course RL is a better coach at the moment and has always been. Doesnt mean Scott wont end up better though.

[Cairnsman]

Fair enough but was Chris Scott ever a better coach than RL?

As it stand now...yep! 1 flag to Nil is the current scoreboard and only when both their careers are over will we be able to completely argue who was the better coach.

Well that just proves how stupid it is to just a coach on winning a flag because Chris Scott would now be a better coach than he was in his first year and he hasnt won one since. Of course RL is a better coach at the moment and has always been. Doesnt mean Scott wont end up better though.

Scott clearly had what it took to take over a team with very good list and win a flag in his first year...he not only had the skill to manage a team into the GF but he also had what it took to win it...RL didn't even come close to that in his first year with us and also at Freo so clearly it takes a while for RL to get his team going to his game plan but clearly he hasn't been able to get it to work when it really counts...that surely has be a mark against his name...he gets his 4th chance at making it count this week.

[plugger66]

As it stand now...yep! 1 flag to Nil is the current scoreboard and only when both their careers are over will we be able to completely argue who was the better coach.

Well that just proves how stupid it is to just a coach on winning a flag because Chris Scott would now be a better coach than he was in his first year and he hasnt won one since. Of course RL is a better coach at the moment and has always been. Doesnt mean Scott wont end up better though.

Scott clearly had what it took to take over a team with very good list and win a flag in his first year...he not only had the skill to manage a team into the GF but he also had what it took to win it...RL didn't even come close to that in his first year with us and also at Freo so clearly it takes a while for RL to get his team going to his game plan but clearly he hasn't been able to get it to work when it really counts...that surely has be a mark against his name...he gets his 4th chance at making it count this week.

Have no idea why you are comparing RL's first year with Scott. means jack. Scott is clearly a very good coach but my point is he would be better now than in his first year but cant win it now. Sometimes the side you coach is just to good for the opposition and sometimes they arent. You still have to be a good coach to get the best out of players. RL is a better coach than Scott at the moment and was in the year Scott won the flag.

[desertsaint]

Both great coaches. Ross is one flag behind. Could be square next week, could be further behind. If so, Clarko will have the runs on the board. If I could have either though, I'd take Clarkson with where we're at.
Ross learned at lot at the saints - took two years to really get a grasp of where he wanted to head IMO. Went to Freo knowing what to do and how to get there. Has improved on his plan and, while the top core is below ours, the team as a whole is stronger. Want Freo to win, but don't want Ross to win. bum. Just have to wait and see which way my heart goes in the big dance.

[Cairnsman]

Well that just proves how stupid it is to just a coach on winning a flag because Chris Scott would now be a better coach than he was in his first year and he hasnt won one since. Of course RL is a better coach at the moment and has always been. Doesnt mean Scott wont end up better though.

Scott clearly had what it took to take over a team with very good list and win a flag in his first year...he not only had the skill to manage a team into the GF but he also had what it took to win it...RL didn't even come close to that in his first year with us and also at Freo so clearly it takes a while for RL to get his team going to his game plan but clearly he hasn't been able to get it to work when it really counts...that surely has be a mark against his name...he gets his 4th chance at making it count this week.

Have no idea why you are comparing RL's first year with Scott. means jack. Scott is clearly a very good coach but my point is he would be better now than in his first year but cant win it now. Sometimes the side you coach is just to good for the opposition and sometimes they arent. You still have to be a good coach to get the best out of players. RL is a better coach than Scott at the moment and was in the year Scott won the flag.

First year versus first year...seems like a reasonable comparison to me and your point doesn't make sense because just like players I'm assuming coaches can have bad years so if you then compare the first 3 years of each coaches careers then they come out about even...if RL wins the flag next week otherwise Chris Scott will remain the better coach.

[Spud]

What about my other question?

Why do rate his intelligence so highly, but as a self confessed career coach, you reckon saints fluffed it and he was a chance to stay?

Either he's clever, or he isn't.

His win loss record would be hit, and hard.

What does this even mean? This seems to have three or four twists of thoughts and I don't even know if I'm interpreting correctly.

Anyways... I've swallowed my bitterness and anger with him leaving. I still however acknowledge brilliance - much unlike many st kilda supporters that can't get over it.

You reckon the saints fluffed keeping him.

Think he was too smart to stay.

Career coach.

He's value would of taken a big hit past two years.

It's not that complicated.

I'm not bitter, just get annoyed when saints fans think he was any chance to stay.

Yes he admitted he was a "career coach" and admitted he had financial problems. In April 2011 with Pelchens's appointment tensions were apparent. That was when he quietly put out the feelers for shopping himself around. Media reports at the time suggested that the Freo deal was was months in the making not weeks.

[plugger66]

What does this even mean? This seems to have three or four twists of thoughts and I don't even know if I'm interpreting correctly.

Anyways... I've swallowed my bitterness and anger with him leaving. I still however acknowledge brilliance - much unlike many st kilda supporters that can't get over it.

You reckon the saints fluffed keeping him.

Think he was too smart to stay.

Career coach.

He's value would of taken a big hit past two years.

It's not that complicated.

I'm not bitter, just get annoyed when saints fans think he was any chance to stay.

Yes he admitted he was a "career coach" and admitted he had financial problems. In April 2011 with Pelchens's appointment tensions were apparent. That was when he quietly put out the feelers for shopping himself around. Media reports at the time suggested that the Freo deal was was months in the making not weeks.

Other media reports suggest no such thing. matter of fact most suggest no such thing.

[Cairnsman]

Back on topic...this weeks GF is a contest of the coaches...the offensive versus the defensive...can RL get a score on the board, can Clarko go down as one of the all time great coaches...should be a cracker.

[SainterK]

I'm not bitter, just get annoyed when saints fans think he was any chance to stay.

I'm not sure why you profess to know anything about this?

The guy wanted some security, we were only essentially offering him rolling single year deals.. so he didn't sign. If we had given him an unconditional 3 - 4 year deal after our second GF year, he'd have signed it... No doubt in the world.

"Career coach"

[plugger66]

I'm not bitter, just get annoyed when saints fans think he was any chance to stay.

I'm not sure why you profess to know anything about this?

The guy wanted some security, we were only essentially offering him rolling single year deals.. so he didn't sign. If we had given him an unconditional 3 - 4 year deal after our second GF year, he'd have signed it... No doubt in the world.

"Career coach"

Yep and thats why he would have signed a long deal if offerred before his contract actually finished.

[SainterK]

I'm still not convinced we could of satisfied his financial needs and also motivation for the job ahead...p66

That's why he told the market he was dissatisfied early in the year.

Wasn't to rush us, was to let the market know he was curious.

Again, you're welcome to still believe he'd stay, I don't....

[plugger66]

I'm still not convinced we could of satisfied his financial needs and also motivation for the job ahead...p66

That's why he told the market he was dissatisfied early in the year.

Wasn't to rush us, was to let the market know he was curious.

Again, you're welcome to still believe he'd stay, I don't....

Well my contacts suggest you are wrong but maybe the people who told me dont know that much.

[Cairnsman]

I'm still not convinced we could of satisfied his financial needs and also motivation for the job ahead...p66

That's why he told the market he was dissatisfied early in the year.

Wasn't to rush us, was to let the market know he was curious.

Again, you're welcome to still believe he'd stay, I don't....

Well my contacts suggest you are wrong but maybe the people who told me dont know that much.

How is your third cousin going

[plugger66]

I'm still not convinced we could of satisfied his financial needs and also motivation for the job ahead...p66

That's why he told the market he was dissatisfied early in the year.

Wasn't to rush us, was to let the market know he was curious.

Again, you're welcome to still believe he'd stay, I don't....

Well my contacts suggest you are wrong but maybe the people who told me dont know that much.

How is your third cousin going

Dont know if i have one but did you see my old mans mate in the 1966 GF show on the saints. You know the one who was correct about what he said regarding SW. You should have noticed him in the show. He was chairman of selectors in that GF.

[Cairnsman]

Well my contacts suggest you are wrong but maybe the people who told me dont know that much.

How is your third cousin going

Dont know if i have one but did you see my old mans mate in the 1966 GF show on the saints. You know the one who was correct about what he said regarding SW. You should have noticed him in the show. He was chairman of selectors in that GF.

I didn't at first but Nanna did and when she pointed him out I recognised him. Now I know how he got it so wrong...I hope I look that able when I'm his age.

[plugger66]

How is your third cousin going

Dont know if i have one but did you see my old mans mate in the 1966 GF show on the saints. You know the one who was correct about what he said regarding SW. You should have noticed him in the show. He was chairman of selectors in that GF.

I didn't at first but Nanna did and when she pointed him out I recognised him. Now I know how he got it so wrong...I hope I look that able when I'm his age.

He got it right from all reports down here but in your defence you are along way away and miss most news about the saints. It is even 2013 down here. By the way dont watch the GF. We lose to Adelaide after leading by 17 points at HT. We have a few poor years after that and eventually come good again. Up there it will be 2004 in 7 years and you wont know it but GT actually coaches us into a prelimary final.

[Cairnsman]

Dont know if i have one but did you see my old mans mate in the 1966 GF show on the saints. You know the one who was correct about what he said regarding SW. You should have noticed him in the show. He was chairman of selectors in that GF.

I didn't at first but Nanna did and when she pointed him out I recognised him. Now I know how he got it so wrong...I hope I look that able when I'm his age.

He got it right from all reports down here but in your defence you are along way away and miss most news about the saints. It is even 2013 down here. By the way dont watch the GF. We lose to Adelaide after leading by 17 points at HT. We have a few poor years after that and eventually come good again. Up there it will be 2004 in 7 years and you wont know it but GT actually coaches us into a prelimary final.

I'm closer to you than you think...I've actually seen you around the traps and I'd probably say if it wasn't for the fact that you are a liniment sniffer then this site would be far, far less interesting. Clubs need barflys like you.

[Moods]

Cairnsman - are you that simplistic that you judge coaches purely on how many flags they have won? I'm glad you weren't sitting on the panel to select any of our coaches. We may have ended up with Kevin Sheedy - who is a sad joke in the industry these days, and whom the game has well and truly gone past.

As for comparing Scott to Lyon in their first year. Let's see - Scott took over a list that had won 2 flags in the previous 4 years and hadn't missed a prelim final in that time. All their stars, bar Ablett, were still playing (Mooney on the decline) A great effort, as everyone expected them to drop down the ladder, but no greater than what say Ken Hinkley managed to do this year at Port AFAIC.

Lyon took over a list that had never made a GF let alone win one. Instead of doing what Scott did - that is encourage the boys to keep doing what they have been doing and tweek a few things here and there - Lyon radically changed everything about how we played. Everything! If you reckon a first year coach can do that and win a flag you're kidding yourself.

He changed the way the game is now played. The term frontal pressure came about because of how we played in 09. I don't care what that goose Malthouse says, he stole the game plan, modified it to his team's liking, and ran with it. Good on him. Good coaching, but don't try and claim you came up with it. Ask anyone involved in the industry, and most will agree that Lyon completely changed the way the game is now played. In over 35 years of watching and playing the game, I had never seen anything like 09, where a good (not great) team was able to completely dominate a season, based almost solely on how they played the game and the tactics employed. Other clubs simply couldn't get a handle on it.

It takes all sorts of things to win a flag. We were unlucky in both, but Lyon can't control everything the players do - they are human. Missing goals from the goal square can't be coached. We lost two GF's against teams with superior lists by small margains. Lyon has another team in a GF with a vastly inferior list. In my opinion they will win because of the way he has them playing.

[Cairnsman]

Cairnsman - are you that simplistic that you judge coaches purely on how many flags they have won? I'm glad you weren't sitting on the panel to select any of our coaches. We may have ended up with Kevin Sheedy - who is a sad joke in the industry these days, and whom the game has well and truly gone past.

As for comparing Scott to Lyon in their first year. Let's see - Scott took over a list that had won 2 flags in the previous 4 years and hadn't missed a prelim final in that time. All their stars, bar Ablett, were still playing (Mooney on the decline) A great effort, as everyone expected them to drop down the ladder, but no greater than what say Ken Hinkley managed to do this year at Port AFAIC.

Lyon took over a list that had never made a GF let alone win one. Instead of doing what Scott did - that is encourage the boys to keep doing what they have been doing and tweek a few things here and there - Lyon radically changed everything about how we played. Everything! If you reckon a first year coach can do that and win a flag you're kidding yourself.

He changed the way the game is now played. The term frontal pressure came about because of how we played in 09. I don't care what that goose Malthouse says, he stole the game plan, modified it to his team's liking, and ran with it. Good on him. Good coaching, but don't try and claim you came up with it. Ask anyone involved in the industry, and most will agree that Lyon completely changed the way the game is now played. In over 35 years of watching and playing the game, I had never seen anything like 09, where a good (not great) team was able to completely dominate a season, based almost solely on how they played the game and the tactics employed. Other clubs simply couldn't get a handle on it.

It takes all sorts of things to win a flag. We were unlucky in both, but Lyon can't control everything the players do - they are human. Missing goals from the goal square can't be coached. We lost two GF's against teams with superior lists by small margains. Lyon has another team in a GF with avastly inferior list. In my opinion they will win because of the way he has them playing.

I am a little simplistic and it's why I probably agree with most of your post but to be fair to me you have probably missed the times where I have said I really rate Lyon but I really rate coaches that win flags also and especially ones that win them with teams that they have lead from a re-build like Clarko and Malthouse. Lyon is very good and this time next week he could be a premiership coach which will make him great however until he wins one there will always be a question mark over his ability to get a team to win on the last day in September and that question mark will grow massively if he loses next week.

[plugger66]

Cairnsman - are you that simplistic that you judge coaches purely on how many flags they have won? I'm glad you weren't sitting on the panel to select any of our coaches. We may have ended up with Kevin Sheedy - who is a sad joke in the industry these days, and whom the game has well and truly gone past.

As for comparing Scott to Lyon in their first year. Let's see - Scott took over a list that had won 2 flags in the previous 4 years and hadn't missed a prelim final in that time. All their stars, bar Ablett, were still playing (Mooney on the decline) A great effort, as everyone expected them to drop down the ladder, but no greater than what say Ken Hinkley managed to do this year at Port AFAIC.

Lyon took over a list that had never made a GF let alone win one. Instead of doing what Scott did - that is encourage the boys to keep doing what they have been doing and tweek a few things here and there - Lyon radically changed everything about how we played. Everything! If you reckon a first year coach can do that and win a flag you're kidding yourself.

He changed the way the game is now played. The term frontal pressure came about because of how we played in 09. I don't care what that goose Malthouse says, he stole the game plan, modified it to his team's liking, and ran with it. Good on him. Good coaching, but don't try and claim you came up with it. Ask anyone involved in the industry, and most will agree that Lyon completely changed the way the game is now played. In over 35 years of watching and playing the game, I had never seen anything like 09, where a good (not great) team was able to completely dominate a season, based almost solely on how they played the game and the tactics employed. Other clubs simply couldn't get a handle on it.

It takes all sorts of things to win a flag. We were unlucky in both, but Lyon can't control everything the players do - they are human. Missing goals from the goal square can't be coached. We lost two GF's against teams with superior lists by small margains. Lyon has another team in a GF with avastly inferior list. In my opinion they will win because of the way he has them playing.

I am a little simplistic and it's why I probably agree with most of your post but to be fair to me you have probably missed the times where I have said I really rate Lyon but I really rate coaches that win flags also and especially ones that win them with teams that they have lead from a re-build like Clarko and Malthouse. Lyon is very good and this time next week he could be a premiership coach which will make him great however until he wins one there will always be a question mark over his ability to get a team to win on the last day in September and that question mark will grow massively if he loses next week.

It shouldnt grow if he doesnt win it. The Hawks should be favourites and i reckon they would be even bigger favourites if RL wasnt coaching. This froum will be in melt down either way on Saturday noght. If Freo lose he will be the chocker to the RL haters and the ones who rate him will just say the hawks have the better list which IMO they clearly do. if Freo win the RL haters will say freo had the best list and the likers will say he is clearly the best coach in the AFL.