A Flag in 6 Years

[Spinner]

GT proved to be a very good AFL coach. Making two prelim finals with an emerging list would suggest that he was an effective coach.... The 2005 final v Adelaide was a triumph

But at that stage
He had a large proportion of players under 100 games and under 23

Also in 2005/2006 his (better than) list (hard to argue IMO, as 2009 was 80% the same list more developed) was severely hit by injuries to key players either before or during the games?!

He was not a better tactical coach than Ross Lyon.... But he did have a vision for the StK FC and was a far better developer than Ross.... Ross was concerned about immediate results and risked/sacrificed the future of the club to do so...

They say the hallmark of a great coach, is the condition he leaves the club in

The club was in a better position in 2007 than 2001 when GT left compared to when he took over...

The club was in a better position in 2007 than 2012.... When Ross arrived and when he walked

In fact I saw him as a heinous tactical coach, uncompromising in getting results

A dreadful manager of a club, who left it in a aweful state

This is confusing backwash. You write different things and opposing views in different threads.

Didn't RL get St Kilda as a team that lost first week of finals? And left first week of finals?

GT benefited from a sham process and took over a bottom dweller. How is his development measured? Had a pretty good impact on Kosi's career in 2002...

I love to be the man responsible for Roo's development. Hard to stuff that up.

[BigMart]

I've said the same things for ten years

Thomas.... Absolutely terrific for the development of our kids... He didn't play more mature hacks in the hope of getting a few better results, he sped up the development by getting
Goose, Ball, Clarke, Dal, Goddard.... Later, Raph, Joey, Fisher games as quick as possible

He also mentored them in leadership and sense of team
Ross
A far better match day tactician
But whilst his head was focused on StK winning games, his heart did not care about the long term future of the club.
Ross ALMOST succeeded, and in doing so, f*** ed the club.
It DID NOT have to come at that cost....

[dragit]

I've said the same things for ten years

Thomas.... Absolutely terrific for the development of our kids... He didn't play more mature hacks in the hope of getting a few better results, he sped up the development by getting
Goose, Ball, Clarke, Dal, Goddard.... Later, Raph, Joey, Fisher games as quick as possible

He also mentored them in leadership and sense of team
Ross
A far better match day tactician
But whilst his head was focused on StK winning games, his heart did not care about the long term future of the club.
Ross ALMOST succeeded, and in doing so, f*** ed the club.
It DID NOT have to come at that cost....

Ten years? Far-out, it would be very unfair to accuse you of hindsight if you were saying all that back in 2004.

Ken' Nostradamus.

[BigMart]

Dragit

Grant had a series of High DPs

What a strange comment

This bevy of high DPs were still to reach their peak

Kosi, Roo, Fisher 23 at his dismissal
Ball, Maguire, Dal, Clarke, Montagna, Gram 22 yo

Goddard 21

Raph 20

None of these were in their prime (23-28) except Lenny.... Not until Ross coached them

Secondly, why did GT make bad DPs? He was not the recruiter?! Strange comment?

Say it again
What condition did Ross leave the club?
What state did Grant leave the club?

And high DPs didn't help Bailey, Ratten, Neeld, Wallace
They need to be developed into a winning culture well

[Spinner]

I've said the same things for ten years

Thomas.... Absolutely terrific for the development of our kids... He didn't play more mature hacks in the hope of getting a few better results, he sped up the development by getting
Goose, Ball, Clarke, Dal, Goddard.... Later, Raph, Joey, Fisher games as quick as possible

He also mentored them in leadership and sense of team
Ross
A far better match day tactician
But whilst his head was focused on StK winning games, his heart did not care about the long term future of the club.
Ross ALMOST succeeded, and in doing so, f*** ed the club.
It DID NOT have to come at that cost....

So you're saying 2009 should have been a development year? How long have you been saying this?

[BigMart]

Development and achievement do NOT have to be mutually exclusive!!

Collingwood, Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn have had extended periods on top due to refreshing.... There is no evidence that you need to yo yo to win, in fact the opposite is true...

The longer you stay top 4 the better your chances are..., Freo need to recognise this...

2009 should have been exactly as it was... Maybe some more kids float through... Certainly Armitage should have held his spot post R19 after his dropping two games after a BOG



2010 there were a number of selections that denied development.... Of talent

2011 was getting even more desperate to hang on...

[Con Gorozidis]

Development and achievement do NOT have to be mutually exclusive!!

Collingwood, Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn have had extended periods on top due to refreshing.... There is no evidence that you need to yo yo to win, in fact the opposite is true...

The longer you stay top 4 the better your chances are..., Freo need to recognise this...

2009 should have been exactly as it was... Maybe some more kids float through... Certainly Armitage should have held his spot post R19 after his dropping two games after a BOG



2010 there were a number of selections that denied development.... Of talent

2011 was getting even more desperate to hang on...

I agree BM - this whole 'we were contenders so we had to draft s*** players who never played' concept is a logical fallacy.
You can be contending and still draft well. They arent mutually exclusive. In fact they should be entirely separate functions.

[BakesFan]

Great initiative by the club. Good to see us planning for success.

[Enrico_Misso]

I remember when GT promised us two flags.

Yes
and delivered

1) The 2004 Pre Season Cup
2) The 2008 Pre Season Cup

[Wayne42]

I don't believe Ross will be allowed to forgo development for a flag at Freo, i'm pretty sure the Freo hierachy stated when he got the job his role was to do both.

The Freo people saw the mess he left our list in and didn't want him doing that to them as well.

I wonder how many more coaches we will have had in this upcoming, amazing, 6 years of development.

[dragit]

Development and achievement do NOT have to be mutually exclusive!!

Collingwood, Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn have had extended periods on top due to refreshing.... There is no evidence that you need to yo yo to win, in fact the opposite is true...

The longer you stay top 4 the better your chances are..., Freo need to recognise this...

2009 should have been exactly as it was... Maybe some more kids float through... Certainly Armitage should have held his spot post R19 after his dropping two games after a BOG



2010 there were a number of selections that denied development.... Of talent

2011 was getting even more desperate to hang on...

I agree BM - this whole 'we were contenders so we had to draft s*** players who never played' concept is a logical fallacy.
You can be contending and still draft well. They arent mutually exclusive. In fact they should be entirely separate functions.

Sorry con, but what an idiotic premise... No-one ever decided to draft s***...

Lyon was there for 5 drafts & we only gave up one early pick in that time

Our other early picks in Armo, McEvoy & lynch look to be solid AFL players... Cripps is borderline, but he was pick 24 in a compromised draft. How is SamTDL Day going, taken pick 3 in the same draft?

We cocked up plenty of drafts, no doubt... But it's not like we wasted lots of low picks, trading for a flag... We were drafting for the future, we just picked the wrong guys.

Now we have
McEvoy into Dunstan/Acres
Lynch into Jack Newnes
Cripps into TDL (but don't blame me, Membrey would gave been worth a shot)

We've screwed up, but we have some future players indirectly from those drafts.

People make out like we deliberately drafted poorly or gave away all of our 'early' picks.

[Con Gorozidis]

Of course its an idiotic premise - thats what im highlighting

I was saying how silly it is. Some people seem to think it was a trade off between 'contending' and 'developing'. Im just pointing out that was a silly idea.

Our drafting was poor. This is a fact and statistically proven.

Its not Lyons fault - he was never head of recruitment any time I looked.

Of course we didn't deliberately draft poorly - but we were under-resourced, unprofessional, undermanned and very poor in that area for several years. You could say we were either negligent or just behind the development curves in this area.

[dragit]

No worries, we can all agree that we sucked in this area then... except Marto, cause he already knew back in 2004 that Lyon would later go on to under-develop. Incredible really.

Who should we draft in 2014, 15, 16?

[plugger66]

No worries, we can all agree that we sucked in this area then... except Marto, cause he already knew back in 2004 that Lyon would later go on to under-develop. Incredible really.

Who should we draft in 2014, 15, 16?

He will tell you in 2018.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

I love how this a thread about the future, and then all the posts are about GT and Ross.

The fact is that all footy clubs have medium term (5 year) plans. Whether or not it's actually reasonable to suggest we can win a flag by 2020, I do like that we've put our plan out on the table.

At the end of the day though, the plan that was sent out to members is a bunch of top-level bullet points. The proof will be in the pudding.

[Toy Saint]

Too young in 66 to have a drink and celebrate.Make up for it next time,dont want to wait too long

Too young in '66 and I fear too old next time.....

[BigMart]

Again for the umpteenth time

Don't have a go at me if I question a draft pick..... Because I haven't give them a go or I don't have the expertise of our professional full time drafters?!

Because apparently (although everyone does) I'm not allowed to assess them after the fact.

For some reason, I am held to a higher account by some, and must now be the oracle (give 2017 DPs apparently) but can't comment on who we drafted.

I think people are shitty I was right about Howard, Sweeney, Lovett, Cripps.... After fiery debate AFTER they were selected

And Ball, Maguire, Cousins.... Who have been valuable contributors since let go or not drafted

X unfortunately was injured again

[plugger66]

Again for the umpteenth time

Don't have a go at me if I question a draft pick..... Because I haven't give them a go or I don't have the expertise of our professional full time drafters?!

Because apparently (although everyone does) I'm not allowed to assess them after the fact.

For some reason, I am held to a higher account by some, and must now be the oracle (give 2017 DPs apparently) but can't comment on who we drafted.

I think people are shitty I was right about Howard, Sweeney, Lovett, Cripps.... After fiery debate AFTER they were selected

And Ball, Maguire, Cousins.... Who have been valuable contributors since let go or not drafted

X unfortunately was injured again

Who is that post directed at? Anyway your skills in picking how good players are, are amazing. You were finally forced to give us players you would draft in 2012 and I think none are now playing. probably because that was forsight. Anyway your reasoning for Cripps was because there was no photo. What a great way to decide how good a player is. And Im very doubtful you are right about him anyway. For the pick number he was he has done pretty well especially when you compare him to some of our others picks over the years.

[Spinner]

No worries, we can all agree that we sucked in this area then... except Marto, cause he already knew back in 2004 that Lyon would later go on to under-develop. Incredible really.

Who should we draft in 2014, 15, 16?

He will tell you in 2018.

Boom!

[Spinner]

I remember when GT promised us two flags.

Yes
and delivered

1) The 2004 Pre Season Cup
2) The 2008 Pre Season Cup

I love the preseason cup!

Only cups I've seen.

[matrix]

[bergholt]

Cripps into TDL (but don't blame me, Membrey would gave been worth a shot)

We might still be able to give Membrey a shot. As a 188cm marking forward I can't see how he's going to get a game at Sydney ahead of Tippett, Franklin, Reid, Goodes, etc. Unless he's become a midfielder - but as we've seen with Siposs, it's pretty hard to turn junior age full-forwards into senior midfielders.

[evertonfc]

GT proved to be a very good AFL coach. Making two prelim finals with an emerging list would suggest that he was an effective coach.... The 2005 final v Adelaide was a triumph

But at that stage
He had a large proportion of players under 100 games and under 23

Also in 2005/2006 his (better than) list (hard to argue IMO, as 2009 was 80% the same list more developed) was severely hit by injuries to key players either before or during the games?!

He was not a better tactical coach than Ross Lyon.... But he did have a vision for the StK FC and was a far better developer than Ross.... Ross was concerned about immediate results and risked/sacrificed the future of the club to do so...

They say the hallmark of a great coach, is the condition he leaves the club in

The club was in a better position in 2007 than 2001 when GT left compared to when he took over...

The club was in a better position in 2007 than 2012.... When Ross arrived and when he walked

In fact I saw him as a heinous tactical coach, uncompromising in getting results

A dreadful manager of a club, who left it in an awful state

Great post - the most accurate summation of the events that unfolded.

GT converted our club - from the players to the fans - towards the path of self-belief (that we are not inherently inferior, something which dogged us for decades) and not tolerating mediocrity. You can argue the details, but that's his legacy. I don't think we'll ever be the same because of it. He was the right man when we needed him. Our supporters have a much more attuned idea of what it takes to build a winning club as a result.

Ross Lyon was a brutal coach who did his job of game plan-building and match-day coaching superbly - but what I think is obvious now is that he is an ideal coach for a club which has rebuilt and needs fine-tuning to go all the way. Once he's finished another three-four years at Fremantle, if either GWS or Gold Coast have not secured a flag, I'd say he's a perfect appointment, rather than churning through another rebuild at Freo.

[spert]

What's the difference between Lyon and Thomas...neither are premiership coaches. Lyon with two top teams couldn't do it, so he has issues as a coach. Looking forward to Richo taking us all the way.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

I've said the same things for ten years

Thomas.... Absolutely terrific for the development of our kids... He didn't play more mature hacks in the hope of getting a few better results, he sped up the development by getting
Goose, Ball, Clarke, Dal, Goddard.... Later, Raph, Joey, Fisher games as quick as possible

He also mentored them in leadership and sense of team
Ross
A far better match day tactician
But whilst his head was focused on StK winning games, his heart did not care about the long term future of the club.
Ross ALMOST succeeded, and in doing so, f*** ed the club.
It DID NOT have to come at that cost....

im sorry but GT almost killed Luke Ball as a player his hireing of the WORST fitness guru Starcevich saw players with huge potential like Ball Clark & Kosi into shadows of what they could have become ... we saw footage after games of Luke unable to walk due to groin issues yet week after week he was still played on the other side of the country we had WCE facing a same fate with Judd ... one club put their player on ice and spared no expense on getting their young star better one club kept playing him hoping it would just get better ....

GT is a great bloke no doubt and did great things uniting our club and building the foundation but he did more damage to that list by sheer pig headednes that he knew best ... him and Butterss did a lot for the club but at the same time caused destruction of the players at hand ... i mean the focus on showing the world wowee we made $1m profit when we had players using second hand equipment from a VFL club ...Ross lyon and Greg Westaway at least got us on somewhat a level playing feild sure we didnt make profit but the most valuble assett in the players were better cared for