Again on the Ruckman

[spert]

On 97

Shaun Rehn dominated because he was a much better footballer than Brett Cook.... Cook was possibly the 21st best StK player.... Rehn in the top 6 Adelaide players..... Spider would of been are far stronger opponent, as he was a good player

Was that crucial because of the position.... Not really, but because of the huge difference in ability between the two, giving Adelaide a dominating playier. If it was a Dominant HBF vs a insipid HFF it would have also 'killed us' .... And actually, that happened and he won a medal...

Vidovic was at best a GOP and unless he knocked Rehn out, he would have also been well beaten.

I remember the '97 season pretty well, and one crucial factor to many wins was having the influence of Spider and Vidovic as the ruck division- they were both in good form, Spider's skills, and Vidovic's physical presence, and having neither in the GF really cost us. Brett Cook was a good reserves grade ruckman and never going to have an influence against Rehn and co. Anyway, it's a long time ago now.

[Cairnsman]

On 97

Shaun Rehn dominated because he was a much better footballer than Brett Cook.... Cook was possibly the 21st best StK player.... Rehn in the top 6 Adelaide players..... Spider would of been are far stronger opponent, as he was a good player

Was that crucial because of the position.... Not really, but because of the huge difference in ability between the two, giving Adelaide a dominating playier. If it was a Dominant HBF vs a insipid HFF it would have also 'killed us' .... And actually, that happened and he won a medal...

Vidovic was at best a GOP and unless he knocked Rehn out, he would have also been well beaten.

I remember the '97 season pretty well, and one crucial factor to many wins was having the influence of Spider and Vidovic as the ruck division- they were both in good form, Spider's skills, and Vidovic's physical presence, and having neither in the GF really cost us. Brett Cook was a good reserves grade ruckman and never going to have an influence against Rehn and co. Anyway, it's a long time ago now.

That's why I'm always confused about BMs argument on ruckman, on one hand he says they are overrated but on the other argues the Rehn case. The case is a perfect example of why ruckman are so important in finals, especially the GF. It is one of the few games where you can't have a passenger and so it doesn't matter what position you play in you have to beat your opponent and probably more so in today's game where versatility is the key.

How many premiership teams can you think of that had a ruckman as a passenger or was beaten soundly on the day, I can't think one.

[yipper]

I can still recall then Coach Stan Alves using Rob Harvey to tag the Melbourne Ruckman (Stynes). Alves conceded that Stynes was a much better player around the ground than as a tap ruckman. So Harvs had the job of going with him - it was a classic, Harvs superior fitness helped him absolutely murder Stynes and set up a win for us.
Perhaps the game hasn't changed as much as people think!! A player who has good skills around the ground, a good tank and can take a mark is probably going to do more damage than someone leaping high to get 35 hit outs. I still think a midfield can gain an upper hand with some good tap ruckwork however, but the player must be able to do something else as well. Hickey's game against GWS where he contributed 3 goals and took several good marks was his best for us. When he can do this - he only needs to be competitive at the ruck contests.

[dragit]

So let's say a team ends up with 30 more hitouts and 6 more clearances - only one of those clearances may actually amount to something - a shot at goal. After all, it usually takes 30 possessions on average to kick a goal.


Did you get a chance to watch the games over the weekend, dragit?

I don't see the point in discussing your imaginary stats? But to play along, let's say the 2 teams are perfectly matched, scores level with 1 minute remaining… at the last centre bounce, the better tap ruckmen wins the tap straight to his mid and they stream forward and kick a goal.

I watched the Melbourne/Dogs game, thought Jamar was really influential with plenty of critical knocks to advantage… Minson destroyed Pederson when they were opposed.

A lot factors go into winning a game, but all sides are aiming to get their hands on the ball and the stats clearly show that winning hitouts leads to more clearances… giving a team more chances of using the footy well, but it doesn't mean they will make the most of it.

Let's hope Hickey & Longer both become good around the ground and win the hitouts too.

[Solar]

So big mart, if the ruckman are so unimportant then doesn't that suggest the trading period was a success? We were able to gain a GOP at best midfielder (he was a emergency for grand final side), a top 20 talent (dunstan) and a upgrade to a top 20 pick (acres) for a second round pick. Swap a ineffective longer for a ineffective Mcenvoy. WIN!!!

The argument suggesting hit outs to advantage leading to wins is a fallacy. You have less ball, less inside 50's, less shots at goal, more turnovers etc. and still win a game. But long term having more hits to where your midfield wants it cannot be a bad thing. You just don't sell the shop for it.

[samoht]

I watched the Melbourne/Dogs game, thought Jamar was really influential with plenty of critical knocks to advantage… Minson destroyed Pederson when they were opposed.

But did you also notice Jamar's stray hitout that set up the goal for the Bulldogs?
For mine, all his hitouts to advantage vanished with that one costly mistake - especially in a tight contest.
Same thing with McEvoy - he gifted the Swans a goal.

A lot factors go into winning a game, but all sides are aiming to get their hands on the ball and the stats clearly show that winning hitouts leads to more clearances… giving a team more chances of using the footy well, but it doesn't mean they will make the most of it.

True.
Nevertheless we seem to win the team clearances versus teams with so called better tap ruckmen, including the WCE, when we have all our midfield available - which suggests that clearance players are more important for clearances.

As you know, I'd still like to see a hitout to disadvantage stat - but anyway, I notice all the ruckman's mistakes.

Let's hope Hickey & Longer both become good around the ground and win the hitouts too.

Especially the former - good around the ground - Longer especially needs to improve in this area - as we still seem to win the team clearances (or break even) with competitive ruckmen.

[ROLS-LEE]

In the last 30 years, how many sides that won the premiership did not have a formidable ruck division to help them get there and win. The only time I can remember is the Hawks last year and in 08.

[Spinner]

How did each of the rucks this round score on your personally designed rating scorecard for ruckmen BM?

[samoht]

In the last 30 years, how many sides that won the premiership did not have a formidable ruck division to help them get there and win. The only time I can remember is the Hawks last year and in 08.

Formidable in what way?
Hitout-wise - a Natanui type ?
or around the ground - as in Cox?

[gringo]

A mate who follows Richmond says their biggest issue is having a quality ruck. Since the mullet went down they have struggled. Hampson was brought in to help but hasn't been able to give them first use. A dominant tap ruckman helps enormously. Jolly was massive when he went to Collingwood also. The difference in performance when your ruckman/ruckmen is going well is huge.