Where are we heading..

[Hallalj#3]

I for one feel this season has shown that our young talent is there a couple of years of development and our list will be in good shape..

The most disappointing part of the year from my perspective has been the senior group and how poor they've led.
Lenny and Roo have been outstanding and Demoster while frustrating with his sloppy play has shown huge commitment.

Joey doesn't look to be up for the challenge, has been deplorable IMO the last month and a half, lack of intensity refuses to run defensively and seems to only worry about the kick stat not caring how and where they end up..

Schneider, After the Essendon game I was so happy he was back been a huge fan, but again hasn't been doing what the coaches want the club to stand for, which is hard to play against.

Ray, Always liked his work rate but his best is now ordinary gets more of the ball then ever before but he's another one that doesn't seem to care where it goes.

Gwilt, If his body can't do it anymore that's fair enough but I think he's fine physically just mentally doesn't seem to care enough to really push himself to the limit.

Where not good enough across the board that's where at. But it doesn't help when these guys who are all still capable of playing high level football aren't mentally pushing themselves to the limit.

They've been talking about legacy and leaving a proud one behind, other then the 3 I've mentioned at the start, don't think the others can look at themselves in the mirror and say I'm giving everything I've got.

[Beno88]

Fair post.

It's impossible to really know what's going through a player's head, but most of the group you mention seem to be playing as though they know their time is gone.

Some of the players you mention were great surrounded by stars like Goddard, Dal Santo, Milne, Fisher etc but they can't carry a team of kids.

In other words, maybe they are giving close to everything they've got, but they just haven't got that much.

[Sainternist]

The lack of competence amongst the more experienced players is definitely an issue of great concern. Schneider, Gwilt and Dempster are set for delisting or forced to retire at the rate they're going. Ray - who knows?

I agree that Joey has been pretty disappointing in the last month or so. If the rumour about him getting ready to set off for Stinky Hill is true and he's slacking off, then that is (and should be) an indictment on his integrity and professionalism as a player.

It's going to take some incredible list management and some excellent wheeling and dealing to get us on the right track. But Port Adelaide have seemed to have stopped their rot through doing that. And I can't see why we can't as well.

[dragit]

I disagree generally…

I think people are very quick to label players as soft or not trying when the side is getting thumped, when in reality these experienced players are running around with over a dozen guys who are just starting out… Our midfield is that light for talent at the moment it's very easy for the opposition to lock down on the one or two experienced guys

I agree that Joey has been pretty disappointing in the last month or so. If the rumour about him getting ready to set off for Stinky Hill is true and he's slacking off, then that is (and should be) an indictment on his integrity and professionalism as a player.

This is the kind of stuff that just s***s me… someone posts a rumour and now everyone believes that a player is coasting because he's already left the club. He's certainly had a few poor weeks this year, but people get pretty carried away when we are losing most weeks.

For a reality check, have a look at Montagna & Hayes stats, side by side…

Player Statistics Comparison 2014
http://tinyurl.com/o6km9lc

Leigh Montagna Name Lenny Hayes

10 Games 10
16.8 Kicks Per Game 12.2
8.3 Handballs Per Game 14.5
25.1 Disposals Per Game 26.7
4.3 Marks Per Game 3.2
0.7 Goals Per Game 0.1
0.3 Behinds Per Game 0.5
5.1 Tackles Per Game 6.6
0 Hitouts Per Game 1.7
3.5 Inside 50s Per Game 3.8
0.1 Goal Assists Per Game 0.6
0.8 Frees For Per Game 1.0
0.7 Frees Against Per Game 1.0
10.3 Contested Possessions Per Game 11.5
13.3 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 15.5
16.5 Effective Disposals Per Game 18.5
65.7% Effective Disposals % Per Game 69.3%
3.4 Clangers Per Game 2.7
0.1 Contested Marks Per Game 0.2
0.6 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.2
5.7 Clearances Per Game 5.5
3.8 Rebound 50s Per Game 1.9
1.4 One Percenters Per Game 1.9
1.6 Bounces Per Game 0
74.2 Time On Ground % Per Game 70.6

I think Dempster has been very good leading a young backline under constant siege, Gwilt was pretty good early… looks to me to be not big enough for talls, not agile enough for mediums… Ray has been very good, Schneider seems to struggle in a side that is not winning enough ball but he doesn't appear to be not trying to me.

[Con Gorozidis]

I wouldn't be over-reliant on Joey's stats -he is a cunning and wily old fox and he knows how to keep his stats up at acceptable levels.

But im not convinced he is anywhere near a damaging as he has been in the past. Sure he probably misses his handball receives from the likes of NDS and Fisher. I don't think its necessarily a negative against him if hes mentally absent - the bloke is a human being and NDS and BJ had similar mind-sets for a couple of years. It really just emphasises to me that blokes like Hayes and Riewoldt and even Dempster who are almost always switched 'on' are freaks and not the norm. Even Roo had maybe two games this year where he looked a little subdued.

The reality for Joey is that he still probably feels he is fresh enough for another crack at a flag... Whereas Lenny and Roo are resigned to finishing up at the Saints and just making the most of each last game. Joey's mind might still be wandering to the great 'what if'...

[Hallalj#3]

If you think Joey is giving it everything and trying as hard as Lenny or even Ray and jones, your not watching him without the ball, as for the rumours this is the first I've heard of it..

Observations Joeys going kick chasing and putting himself ahead of the team, it's not even a question of doubt in my opinion, has been the biggest disappointment for me this season considering we had the choice of letting him or Dal go we chose Dal and I thought it was the decision given the yr Joey had. Don't see him at the club next yr..

[Sainternist]

I agree that Joey has been pretty disappointing in the last month or so. If the rumour about him getting ready to set off for Stinky Hill is true and he's slacking off, then that is (and should be) an indictment on his integrity and professionalism as a player.

This is the kind of stuff that just s***s me… someone posts a rumour and now everyone believes that a player is coasting because he's already left the club. He's certainly had a few poor weeks this year, but people get pretty carried away when we are losing most weeks.

I never said that I believed any rumours. I merely said if it's true. IF. You need to read things more carefully before reacting.

[dragit]

Cunningly racking up the same amount of contested possessions, clearances and tackles as lenny… all while not interested or trying. I hate to do this but

Tell us more about his wandering mind Con… fascinating.

[dragit]

I never said that I believed any rumours. I merely said if it's true. IF. You need to read things more carefully before reacting.

Sorry mate, it just seems that after a pretty loose rumour a lot of people are ready to write off a 200+ game player that just signed a 3 year extension. Your notion of an indictment on his integrity and professionalism as a player seems to be held by plenty on here from this rumour.

[Sainternist]

I never said that I believed any rumours. I merely said if it's true. IF. You need to read things more carefully before reacting.

Sorry mate, it just seems that after a pretty loose rumour a lot of people are ready to write off a 200+ game player that just signed a 3 year extension. Your notion of an indictment on his integrity and professionalism as a player seems to be held by plenty on here from this rumour.

No worries. Yeah, I'm in no rush to write him off either. He's definitely coming under a bit of harsh scrutiny right now. Perhaps too harsh. Let's hope he responds in tremendous fashion, like we know he can, soon enough.

I think I said in another thread that it's more than likely he'll play a ripping game with 40 odd possessions and people will suddenly be eager for him to remain a Saint. It almost seems like people's minds can change with the wind.

[Con Gorozidis]

Cunningly racking up the same amount of contested possessions, clearances and tackles as lenny… all while not interested or trying. I hate to do this but

Tell us more about his wandering mind Con… fascinating.

Cunning like a fox ! He was up early but can you give us the stats for the last month? Not saying we should judge him only on a month by the way - just saying the criticisms are only directed/related to the last month.

Also no one is 'writing him off' - merely raising a hypothetical debate about the pros and cons of a trade. It seems like is a legitimate conversation of discussion - as is you view that we shouldn't trade him.

But don't try and make a moral crusade about it - or claim youre a better more loyal supporter. Your point that we should keep him and your stats are all good valid arguments that I applaud. Certainly adds some substance to the conversation - and you are right - on those numbers hes doing more than ok.

[plugger66]

I never said that I believed any rumours. I merely said if it's true. IF. You need to read things more carefully before reacting.

Sorry mate, it just seems that after a pretty loose rumour a lot of people are ready to write off a 200+ game player that just signed a 3 year extension. Your notion of an indictment on his integrity and professionalism as a player seems to be held by plenty on here from this rumour.

No worries. Yeah, I'm in no rush to write him off either. He's definitely coming under a bit of harsh scrutiny right now. Perhaps too harsh. Let's hope he responds in tremendous fashion, like we know he can, soon enough.

I think I said in another thread that it's more than likely he'll play a ripping game with 40 odd possessions and people will suddenly be eager for him to remain a Saint. It almost seems like people's minds can change with the wind.

Thats how footy fans and the media work. Will never change. As for Joey I think his last month has been terrible. I dont have a clue why. maybe he is injured. maybe he wants to leave. Maybe he is out of form and lacking confidence. He needs lift like about 14 others.

[stinger]

I disagree generally…

I think people are very quick to label players as soft or not trying when the side is getting thumped, when in reality these experienced players are running around with over a dozen guys who are just starting out… Our midfield is that light for talent at the moment it's very easy for the opposition to lock down on the one or two experienced guys

I agree that Joey has been pretty disappointing in the last month or so. If the rumour about him getting ready to set off for Stinky Hill is true and he's slacking off, then that is (and should be) an indictment on his integrity and professionalism as a player.

This is the kind of stuff that just s***s me… someone posts a rumour and now everyone believes that a player is coasting because he's already left the club. He's certainly had a few poor weeks this year, but people get pretty carried away when we are losing most weeks.

For a reality check, have a look at Montagna & Hayes stats, side by side…

Player Statistics Comparison 2014
http://tinyurl.com/o6km9lc

Leigh Montagna Name Lenny Hayes

10 Games 10
16.8 Kicks Per Game 12.2
8.3 Handballs Per Game 14.5
25.1 Disposals Per Game 26.7
4.3 Marks Per Game 3.2
0.7 Goals Per Game 0.1
0.3 Behinds Per Game 0.5
5.1 Tackles Per Game 6.6
0 Hitouts Per Game 1.7
3.5 Inside 50s Per Game 3.8
0.1 Goal Assists Per Game 0.6
0.8 Frees For Per Game 1.0
0.7 Frees Against Per Game 1.0
10.3 Contested Possessions Per Game 11.5
13.3 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 15.5
16.5 Effective Disposals Per Game 18.5
65.7% Effective Disposals % Per Game 69.3%
3.4 Clangers Per Game 2.7
0.1 Contested Marks Per Game 0.2
0.6 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.2
5.7 Clearances Per Game 5.5
3.8 Rebound 50s Per Game 1.9
1.4 One Percenters Per Game 1.9
1.6 Bounces Per Game 0
74.2 Time On Ground % Per Game 70.6

I think Dempster has been very good leading a young backline under constant siege, Gwilt was pretty good early… looks to me to be not big enough for talls, not agile enough for mediums… Ray has been very good, Schneider seems to struggle in a side that is not winning enough ball but he doesn't appear to be not trying to me.

good post

[perfectionist]

(At least until we have the skill basis to be a force again - in the meantime, I'm off to the Virgin Islands!)

[cwrcyn]

There's been no continuity in that team all year. Steven missed the first few, Roberton dropped off and went to Sandy after the first couple of rounds, as did Maister. Gilbert got re-injured early and we haven't seen him since. Haven't seen Geary since round 7. Hickey started really well but was gone by about round 5. Templeton started well and he was gone by round 5. Gwilt struggled for 8 rounds and then did a hamstring. Armitage hasn't played since round 6. Lee has taken a long time to get match fit and finally made the team last week. Schneider in and out with injury again. And we haven't seen Fisher at all.

[dragit]

Exactly cwrcyn… we must have used the most players this year with 38 of 45 listed players so far, will probably be at least 40 by the end of the year.

[Sainternist]

It's ridiculous. We just can't seem to ever get a break with injuries, even when we are at the foot of the table.

[Hallalj#3]

Exactly cwrcyn… we must have used the most players this year with 38 of 45 listed players so far, will probably be at least 40 by the end of the year.

Whats that got to do with the healthy players not running back to pick up their men or running to cover someone else's. Doesn't take a healthy list for the healthy players to show full commitment. Don't preach about leaving a legacy if your not prepared to fully commit to it..

[SaintPav]

It's a fair enough point about Montagna.

Ball in 2009, BJ in 2012, Dal last year and now Joey.

It looks like history repeating.

[Sainternist]

It's a fair enough point about Montagna.

Ball in 2009, BJ in 2012, Dal last year and now Joey.

It looks like history repeating.

More like star players evacuating from a sinking ship.

[BigMart]

I wish we had more cunning players?

[skeptic]

Ball was forced out
Goddard clearly wanted the money
Dal would have stayed but was happy to have another shot...
Monty we'll see

[lewdogs]

The thing that worries me is, while we talk of 2016-2020 being our run up the ladder, who will be our leaders then? There won't be many left. Goddard would have been handy to still have around the club.

[gringo]

We have had a crappy run with injuries. More youth means less structure and more pressure. Joey has been a bit average but still contributes just not what we would expect. He has been used in different roles this year as they try to get midfield time into guys like Ross. Montagna a few weeks ago was down back then forward then on ball. They don't really give him much time in the running midfield role compared to most years.

As much as people complain about Gwilt, Dempster, joey and Ray they are playing under more pressure than ever before. Often the ball goes out turns over and comes back at Gwilt and Sean who are getting hammered under a barrage. Our kids are still learning to spread and link up.

[White Winmar]

I wish we had more cunning players?

We should target Baldrick in the draft.