The Peta Affirmative Action Debate

[Moods]

Peta S into the box as a match day assistant coach, and our future Director of Coaching... Go Peta!

Why does that excite you Dave? I'm not interested in affirmative action or reverse discrimination or token positions handed out to improve our PR with the fairer sex. I'm only interested in getting the best ppl into the best positions. I hope like hell that she is the best person for the job, and we're not trying to satisfy some agenda because of a few idiots in the past 10 years have caused hiring in our football department to became political.

[White Winmar]

You have to be kidding, Dave. The kindest thing one could say about her appointment is that it is tokenism at its worst. Her "outstanding CV" consists of five years in the women's league and two years as a part time VFL assistant. If you trawled the available talent for an assistant's position, there would be literally hundreds of men who are better qualified. Shame on those who appointed her, putting the club's welfare and chances of success behind the need to satisfy some pathetic, affirmative action agenda.

[SainterK]

It s***s me how the media always manage to get our emblem or jumper into any negative publicity for our Club
and how other Clubs get bad news on page 2 with no jumper or emblems. Watch how they handle Essendon.

Bad media still around, our brand & reputation in regards to women needs a lot of work...heaps of work

Hi K, I honestly don't believe that is justified at all, but unfortunately you (and Owen) are probably right.



Peta S into the box as a match day assistant coach, and our future Director of Coaching... Go Peta!

Don't know why people pretend its not the case.

Lets see some legit progress, not further evidence that people at the club don't particularly care much about it.

[Dave McNamara]

Peta S into the box as a match day assistant coach, and our future Director of Coaching... Go Peta!

Why does that excite you Dave? I'm not interested in affirmative action or reverse discrimination or token positions handed out to improve our PR with the fairer sex. I'm only interested in getting the best ppl into the best positions. I hope like hell that she is the best person for the job, and we're not trying to satisfy some agenda because of a few idiots in the past 10 years have caused hiring in our football department to became political.

You have to be kidding, Dave. The kindest thing one could say about her appointment is that it is tokenism at its worst. Her "outstanding CV" consists of five years in the women's league and two years as a part time VFL assistant. If you trawled the available talent for an assistant's position, there would be literally hundreds of men who are better qualified. Shame on those who appointed her, putting the club's welfare and chances of success behind the need to satisfy some pathetic, affirmative action agenda.

Hi Moods and WW, I would love to see Peta work her way up the ranks within our club. And yes, I do unashamedly say that primarily (though not totally) because of her gender.

But yes, you both make a good point... provided that she is good enough(!)

Is she (good enough)? I don't know. All I can say, is that what I've heard so far has been positive.

However, others would have way more info on that than I, so may have a different assessment...?
(WW, that's a hint asking you, and anyone else who cares to comment, for some elaboration on your "The kindest thing one could say..." quote above. Ta.)

[suss]

You have to be kidding, Dave. The kindest thing one could say about her appointment is that it is tokenism at its worst. Her "outstanding CV" consists of five years in the women's league and two years as a part time VFL assistant. If you trawled the available talent for an assistant's position, there would be literally hundreds of men who are better qualified. Shame on those who appointed her, putting the club's welfare and chances of success behind the need to satisfy some pathetic, affirmative action agenda.

[White Winmar]

You have to be kidding, Dave. The kindest thing one could say about her appointment is that it is tokenism at its worst. Her "outstanding CV" consists of five years in the women's league and two years as a part time VFL assistant. If you trawled the available talent for an assistant's position, there would be literally hundreds of men who are better qualified. Shame on those who appointed her, putting the club's welfare and chances of success behind the need to satisfy some pathetic, affirmative action agenda.

Rather than use an emoticon, let's give the argument some body. If Peta was such an outstanding candidate, answer me this. Why, over a period of many months did not a single AFL, VFL, VAFA, or suburban club offer her a position? It forced her from the game and back into teaching. Along comes St.Kilda, sees an opportunity to gain some positive publicity and hey presto, we have the first female coach in the history of the game. What a joke. Are we a charity, or a professional football club, intent on winning premierships? No wonder we are considered the Mr. Magoo of the competition.

[stinger]

You have to be kidding, Dave. The kindest thing one could say about her appointment is that it is tokenism at its worst. Her "outstanding CV" consists of five years in the women's league and two years as a part time VFL assistant. If you trawled the available talent for an assistant's position, there would be literally hundreds of men who are better qualified. Shame on those who appointed her, putting the club's welfare and chances of success behind the need to satisfy some pathetic, affirmative action agenda.

Rather than use an emoticon, let's give the argument some body. If Peta was such an outstanding candidate, answer me this. Why, over a period of many months did not a single AFL, VFL, VAFA, or suburban club offer her a position? It forced her from the game and back into teaching. Along comes St.Kilda, sees an opportunity to gain some positive publicity and hey presto, we have the first female coach in the history of the game. What a joke. Are we a charity, or a professional football club, intent on winning premierships? No wonder we are considered the Mr. Magoo of the competition.

i think the afl leaned on us a tad..........

[markp]

That's like saying we gave watters the job because he's a dwarf. I dare say there'd be plenty of taller men, or women even who could've done a better job than him.

Does anyone really think she'd be hired or remain employed for long if they didn't believe she was capable of doing the job well?

Maybe the reason she wasn't hired by a club earlier was more to do with her sex than why she eventually was.

[White Winmar]

That's like saying we gave watters the job because he's a dwarf. I dare say there'd be plenty of taller men, or women even who could've done a better job than him.

Does anyone really think she'd be hired or remain employed for long if they didn't believe she wasn't capable of doing the job well?

Maybe the reason she wasn't hired by a club earlier was more to do with her sex than why she eventually was.

What a stupid argument. Why didn't she get other offers? Because she's not good enough! Now we're stuck with her. No matter how incompetent she might be, the club will never get rid of her due to the potential negative publicity. We just shot ourselves in the foot once again. Those I know in the industry just snigger when I ask them about her. One comment was, "I'm glad she's yours"! Not even a great high school coach, from what I'm told, coming from those whom she coached. Ok, but not outstanding by any means. I'm just glad we got the spud in. Hopefully she slowly drifts into the background, all the way out the door!

[markp]

Men from other footy clubs are sniggering about the hiring of a woman?

Ok sorry, if that's the case you must be right.

Ah well, like you say it looks like the job is hers for life, maybe we could train her up to make tea and sandwiches for the boys.

[Moods]

That's like saying we gave watters the job because he's a dwarf. I dare say there'd be plenty of taller men, or women even who could've done a better job than him.

Does anyone really think she'd be hired or remain employed for long if they didn't believe she wasn't capable of doing the job well?

Maybe the reason she wasn't hired by a club earlier was more to do with her sex than why she eventually was.

What a stupid argument. Why didn't she get other offers? Because she's not good enough! Now we're stuck with her. No matter how incompetent she might be, the club will never get rid of her due to the potential negative publicity. We just shot ourselves in the foot once again. Those I know in the industry just snigger when I ask them about her. One comment was, "I'm glad she's yours"! Not even a great high school coach, from what I'm told, coming from those whom she coached. Ok, but not outstanding by any means. I'm just glad we got the spud in. Hopefully she slowly drifts into the background, all the way out the door!

I guess we'll never really know until too late. The club are never going to say that she's not up to it. WW's post are all my worst fears about her rolled into one.

I never thought her arguments for why she couldn't get a job or maintain a job in the AFL made sense. I have always been of the opinion that if you are outstanding at what you do, ppl will always accept you. For example, I played footy in an era where blokes would openly call each other fags and poof's if they were considered a bit soft. I recall a conversation in our clubrooms at my local footy club one night. Some of the say, less educated boys, were talking about how they'd accept a homosexual into the club - the argument was a no brainer. If the guy could play and be of real value to the team, who gives a stuff what he is? In all the work I've ever done there has always been those that are a bit socially awkward or who don't seem to fit in. Now if they are fantastic at what they do, they are always accepted. It's those that are mediocre that are discarded very quickly if they don't suit the mould.

Talent will almost always trump prejudice. I'm sure plenty can give stories to the contrary, but my point is IF she is any good, she will probably be moved on eventually anyway or leave of her own accord.Just the way footy is. BUT she shouldn't have a problem finding work within the industry if she is a proven performer. I don't like being the guinea pig though.

[White Winmar]

Exactly Moods, your last two sentences sum up my fears. The evidence suggests most of the industry doesn't rate her. Why should we be the guinea pigs? I feel that Gil and Matt got together on this one. Take your experiments elsewhere, administrators. Let us get on with building a top class coaching team, without PC based interference.

[#gosaintas]

Who really cares how good she is at placing witches hats anyway. Assistant coaching has to be the most overrated role in football. Half the senior coaches out there aren't much better than village idiots - look at super coach Clarkson, can hardly string two words together. Then there was Sheedy, Pagan, Malthouse...the list goes on.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Exactly Moods, your last two sentences sum up my fears. The evidence suggests most of the industry doesn't rate her. Why should we be the guinea pigs? I feel that Gil and Matt got together on this one. Take your experiments elsewhere, administrators. Let us get on with building a top class coaching team, without PC based interference.

Well your "evidence" is without foundation. You have no first hand knowledge and this is a really pathetic piece of garbage coming from you.

How do I know? From personal contact at Port Melbourne. Some one who worked there when she was assistant to Ayres and who still works there.

Ayres rated her very highly, and most importantly the players rated her very highly.

The only "experiment" is to get Neanderthal mysognists to get their heads out of their arses and not make things up because of their innate prejudice.

If she is no good she will get the sack. Unbelievable piece of garbage from you

[Moods]

Who really cares how good she is at placing witches hats anyway. Assistant coaching has to be the most overrated role in football. Half the senior coaches out there aren't much better than village idiots - look at super coach Clarkson, can hardly string two words together. Then there was Sheedy, Pagan, Malthouse...the list goes on.

Yeah - that's why Clarkson is on close to a mill a year. Because he's a drip. Sure he doesn't speak with the Scotch College finishing school elocution that some might like to suit their own snob values, but to say he's a drip and can hardly string two words together must mean that the entire AFL industry is full of idiots who are overpaying fools to coach teams - because Clarkson is head and shoulders the best of these idiots. And assistant coaches being paid 3-4 hundred thou a year, is because most clubs have too much money, have a budget, and need to fulfil their budget. That's how it works isn't it?

The fact that most assistants take training and work on the highly technical aspects of the play, ie the biomechanics of their kicking, handballing, as well as enforcing the game plan. Yourpost suggests that you haven't been around an elite football environment for say, 20 years?

[SaintPav]

Some pretty biased comments.

I particularly love this: "Talent will almost always trump prejudice". What a wank.

Judge her on her merits. If she’s not any good, she will not last long.

Anyway, you geezers shouldn’t worry so much. She’s only a development coach and has no decision making powers, especially on match day. Phewww.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Some pretty biased comments.

I particularly love this: "Talent will almost always trump prejudice". What a wank.

Judge her on her merits. If she’s not any good, she will not last long.

Anyway, you geezers shouldn’t worry so much. She’s only a development coach and has no decision making powers, especially on match day. Phewww.

lol, their fear is palpable

[#gosaintas]

Who really cares how good she is at placing witches hats anyway. Assistant coaching has to be the most overrated role in football. Half the senior coaches out there aren't much better than village idiots - look at super coach Clarkson, can hardly string two words together. Then there was Sheedy, Pagan, Malthouse...the list goes on.

Yeah - that's why Clarkson is on close to a mill a year. Because he's a drip. Sure he doesn't speak with the Scotch College finishing school elocution that some might like to suit their own snob values, but to say he's a drip and can hardly string two words together must mean that the entire AFL industry is full of idiots who are overpaying fools to coach teams - because Clarkson is head and shoulders the best of these idiots. And assistant coaches being paid 3-4 hundred thou a year, is because most clubs have too much money, have a budget, and need to fulfil their budget. That's how it works isn't it?

The fact that most assistants take training and work on the highly technical aspects of the play, ie the biomechanics of their kicking, handballing, as well as enforcing the game plan. Yourpost suggests that you haven't been around an elite football environment for say, 20 years?

Yeah, I'm saying he is a drip. He has a good team - any fool could coach them. Funny how the best sides always have the best coaches - nothing to do with the talent at their disposal.
Looking forward to hearing spud talking about biomechanics, should be riveting stuff. That game plan stuff must be pretty complex. Wonder how today's footballers can deal with all the complexities of it.
Rocket scientists, the lot of them

[Moods]

Some pretty biased comments.

I particularly love this: "Talent will almost always trump prejudice". What a wank.

Judge her on her merits. If she’s not any good, she will not last long.

Anyway, you geezers shouldn’t worry so much. She’s only a development coach and has no decision making powers, especially on match day. Phewww.

Why is it a wank?

I would prefer to know that she is good or otherwise BEFORE we hired her. That's the point I think.

I knew there would be a few that would slap the tired old misogynistic line onto the comments. Can't have a conversation of this type without it. It's like the racism debate. If you think someone of a different skin colour etc isn't as competent then you are automatically labelled.

I couldn't care less if the whole club is run by a bunch of aboriginal lesbian dwarfs. As long as they are the best ppl for the positions they are hired for.

For the record I felt the same way when GT hired Mifsud from the Country leagues. At least GT knew him personally and could vouch for him, but he was completely unproven at this level. The counter argument will be that AFL players retire an are untried as assistant coaches walking straight into an AFL job. A valid argument - yet I have a bit more confidence that these guys have been exposed to the very best coaches in the country for the better part of 10 years, will hopefully have picked up something. Not all the best coaches HAVE to have played the game at the highest level, but it surely helps.

Wayne Carey sometimes struggles to put two words together also - but he knows his footy, and he knows all the little tricks and nuances that fwds need to lose their opponents and find space.

[Moods]

Who really cares how good she is at placing witches hats anyway. Assistant coaching has to be the most overrated role in football. Half the senior coaches out there aren't much better than village idiots - look at super coach Clarkson, can hardly string two words together. Then there was Sheedy, Pagan, Malthouse...the list goes on.

Yeah - that's why Clarkson is on close to a mill a year. Because he's a drip. Sure he doesn't speak with the Scotch College finishing school elocution that some might like to suit their own snob values, but to say he's a drip and can hardly string two words together must mean that the entire AFL industry is full of idiots who are overpaying fools to coach teams - because Clarkson is head and shoulders the best of these idiots. And assistant coaches being paid 3-4 hundred thou a year, is because most clubs have too much money, have a budget, and need to fulfil their budget. That's how it works isn't it?

The fact that most assistants take training and work on the highly technical aspects of the play, ie the biomechanics of their kicking, handballing, as well as enforcing the game plan. Yourpost suggests that you haven't been around an elite football environment for say, 20 years?

Yeah, I'm saying he is a drip. He has a good team - any fool could coach them. Funny how the best sides always have the best coaches - nothing to do with the talent at their disposal.
Looking forward to hearing spud talking about biomechanics, should be riveting stuff. That game plan stuff must be pretty complex. Wonder how today's footballers can deal with all the complexities of it.
Rocket scientists, the lot of them

You have no idea. You are clearly ignorant. Who developed the game plan to win without the best fwd in the comp? Who started coaching with a list that was a shambles and has kept them in the top 4 for the better part of 8 years? Which coach is it that leads the game plan that all the others try and copy?

Any fool could coach them??? Ask any Hawk supporter and they will tell you that their biggest asset isn't Roughie, or Hodgey, or Mitchell - it's Clarkson!

[#gosaintas]

Who really cares how good she is at placing witches hats anyway. Assistant coaching has to be the most overrated role in football. Half the senior coaches out there aren't much better than village idiots - look at super coach Clarkson, can hardly string two words together. Then there was Sheedy, Pagan, Malthouse...the list goes on.

Yeah - that's why Clarkson is on close to a mill a year. Because he's a drip. Sure he doesn't speak with the Scotch College finishing school elocution that some might like to suit their own snob values, but to say he's a drip and can hardly string two words together must mean that the entire AFL industry is full of idiots who are overpaying fools to coach teams - because Clarkson is head and shoulders the best of these idiots. And assistant coaches being paid 3-4 hundred thou a year, is because most clubs have too much money, have a budget, and need to fulfil their budget. That's how it works isn't it?

The fact that most assistants take training and work on the highly technical aspects of the play, ie the biomechanics of their kicking, handballing, as well as enforcing the game plan. Yourpost suggests that you haven't been around an elite football environment for say, 20 years?

Yeah, I'm saying he is a drip. He has a good team - any fool could coach them. Funny how the best sides always have the best coaches - nothing to do with the talent at their disposal.
Looking forward to hearing spud talking about biomechanics, should be riveting stuff. That game plan stuff must be pretty complex. Wonder how today's footballers can deal with all the complexities of it.
Rocket scientists, the lot of them

You have no idea. You are clearly ignorant. Who developed the game plan to win without the best fwd in the comp? Who started coaching with a list that was a shambles and has kept them in the top 4 for the better part of 8 years? Which coach is it that leads the game plan that all the others try and copy?

Any fool could coach them??? Ask any Hawk supporter and they will tell you that their biggest asset isn't Roughie, or Hodgey, or Mitchell - it's Clarkson!

Nuffies like you believe that your heroes are all superhuman. Clarkson must be a genius. Same goes for Roos, Malthouse, Sheedy - even Choco. You must be a mental midget if you are looking up at them.
Clarkson has a skilled kicking side and with incredible foresight, he decided to utilize that skill. Well who would have thought...
Even that nobody assistant managed to coach them to victories. He could also have coached them to a flag.
Players make the coach and you are the ignorant one.

[lewdogs]

This thread has just sucked so much.

[SaintPav]

Some pretty biased comments.

I particularly love this: "Talent will almost always trump prejudice". What a wank.

Judge her on her merits. If she’s not any good, she will not last long.

Anyway, you geezers shouldn’t worry so much. She’s only a development coach and has no decision making powers, especially on match day. Phewww.

Why is it a wank?

I would prefer to know that she is good or otherwise BEFORE we hired her. That's the point I think.

I knew there would be a few that would slap the tired old misogynistic line onto the comments. Can't have a conversation of this type without it. It's like the racism debate. If you think someone of a different skin colour etc isn't as competent then you are automatically labelled.

I couldn't care less if the whole club is run by a bunch of aboriginal lesbian dwarfs. As long as they are the best ppl for the positions they are hired for.

For the record I felt the same way when GT hired Mifsud from the Country leagues. At least GT knew him personally and could vouch for him, but he was completely unproven at this level. The counter argument will be that AFL players retire an are untried as assistant coaches walking straight into an AFL job. A valid argument - yet I have a bit more confidence that these guys have been exposed to the very best coaches in the country for the better part of 10 years, will hopefully have picked up something. Not all the best coaches HAVE to have played the game at the highest level, but it surely helps.

Wayne Carey sometimes struggles to put two words together also - but he knows his footy, and he knows all the little tricks and nuances that fwds need to lose their opponents and find space.

The comment about talent overcoming prejudice is a wank because it is hackneyed, untrue and it trivialises prejudice.

It's pretty obvious that she hasn't played AFL football so the criteria that they choose the "best person for the job" is code for: "no women in footy", which would actually be more truthful.

It's a trite criteria anyway becuase it's impossible to know and the best people rarely get hired. Is Spud the best person for the job? What about Richo? Who knows...are you the best person for your job?

The focus on Misfud who have never played the game is interesting. Why not the focus on say a Danny Sexton who from what I understand, never played AFL footy at the highest level.

Judge her on her merits and the particular job she was hired to do which might not even include some the things you listed above.

[Moods]

Who really cares how good she is at placing witches hats anyway. Assistant coaching has to be the most overrated role in football. Half the senior coaches out there aren't much better than village idiots - look at super coach Clarkson, can hardly string two words together. Then there was Sheedy, Pagan, Malthouse...the list goes on.

Yeah - that's why Clarkson is on close to a mill a year. Because he's a drip. Sure he doesn't speak with the Scotch College finishing school elocution that some might like to suit their own snob values, but to say he's a drip and can hardly string two words together must mean that the entire AFL industry is full of idiots who are overpaying fools to coach teams - because Clarkson is head and shoulders the best of these idiots. And assistant coaches being paid 3-4 hundred thou a year, is because most clubs have too much money, have a budget, and need to fulfil their budget. That's how it works isn't it?

The fact that most assistants take training and work on the highly technical aspects of the play, ie the biomechanics of their kicking, handballing, as well as enforcing the game plan. Yourpost suggests that you haven't been around an elite football environment for say, 20 years?

Yeah, I'm saying he is a drip. He has a good team - any fool could coach them. Funny how the best sides always have the best coaches - nothing to do with the talent at their disposal.
Looking forward to hearing spud talking about biomechanics, should be riveting stuff. That game plan stuff must be pretty complex. Wonder how today's footballers can deal with all the complexities of it.
Rocket scientists, the lot of them

You have no idea. You are clearly ignorant. Who developed the game plan to win without the best fwd in the comp? Who started coaching with a list that was a shambles and has kept them in the top 4 for the better part of 8 years? Which coach is it that leads the game plan that all the others try and copy?

Any fool could coach them??? Ask any Hawk supporter and they will tell you that their biggest asset isn't Roughie, or Hodgey, or Mitchell - it's Clarkson!

Nuffies like you believe that your heroes are all superhuman. Clarkson must be a genius. Same goes for Roos, Malthouse, Sheedy - even Choco. You must be a mental midget if you are looking up at them.
Clarkson has a skilled kicking side and with incredible foresight, he decided to utilize that skill. Well who would have thought...
Even that nobody assistant managed to coach them to victories. He could also have coached them to a flag.
Players make the coach and you are the ignorant one.

No worries mate - go back to your F grade ammos or whatever you watch. That's where coaches basically shift witches hats around so that guys can run around on a Saturday.

You said that the best team wins every year?? Do you mean the team with the best players? Most would have thought that was Sydney this year? Do you think the saints had the best players in 09/10. Not even close imo - yet a coach with a unique game plan took us through a season barely dropping a game. I'm sure you or I could have come up with that game plan that Lyon had us playing and been able to get the players on board to play it so effectively.

[Dave McNamara]

Rather than use an emoticon, let's give the argument some body. If Peta was such an outstanding candidate, answer me this. Why, over a period of many months did not a single AFL, VFL, VAFA, or suburban club offer her a position? It forced her from the game and back into teaching. Along comes St.Kilda, sees an opportunity to gain some positive publicity and hey presto, we have the first female coach in the history of the game. What a joke. Are we a charity, or a professional football club, intent on winning premierships? No wonder we are considered the Mr. Magoo of the competition.

Hi WW, my understanding was that she did have a secure and valued role for quite a few years at a VFL club... Port Melbourne. She was forced to leave coz the pay for the time commitment involved simply wasn't enough to support her kids as a single mum.

So she went back to teaching. She did however pick up a VAFA coaching gig (with Old Scotch I think it was?) under Daniel Harford, who claimed to be very sorry to lose her.

So my question remains, is she or isn't she a worthy member of the coaching team at AFL level? And why/why not, in people's opinion? Ta.