Sliding Doors - we gave up Aaron Francis

[bigcarl]

The thing is if the Saints had kept what turned out to be pick 6 that no one knows exactly who we ould have picked. Draft picks are rarely viewed later in life to be worth exactly that pick and will 5 years down the track to be better or worse than that pick.

Just because the Dons picked Francis does not mean that the Saints would have. Ah Chee, Milera, maybe even Gresham who knows?

What we do know is that Gresham at Pick 18 is looking to be excellent value for that pick.

What we hope is that Carlisle will play to the high level that he showed against the Dons. Even with Fisher and Dempster our backline has struggled againts tall forwards. so a player such as he can be is the type of player you can build your defense around. Ignoring Goddard's injury his progress has been slow and so that he can now be the No2 to player like Carlisle, rather than the No1 back looks to comfortaing.

I was certainly nervous about the Carlisle trade at the time. I am still a bit apprehensive of what he will be like when he starts training with us later this season. However if I had to call it right now I would say that the trade looks like a win for us. But yes we still need at least two gun mids if we want to progress.


Indeed from here on in if quality mids and more mids is not our priority I will be most surprised and disappointed as we now seem to have most bases covered:

Rucks: Hickey, Longer and Pierce as an emerging ruck/forward (One can possibly be traded to help gain the mid we need). Carlisle to also provide the No1 with breaks

Forwards: The emergence of Membrey so far this year, that McCartin showing enough that he can at least be solid if not good with what our other forwards have shown prides enough options to take us forward.
= Talls: Bruce, McCartin (and Carlisle to swing ig in trouble)
= Medium: Membrey
= Small/Normals: Lonie, Weller(defensive forward), Billings, Sinclair (these last 2 I see more as mids, but as both are goalkickers both should rotate forward).

Backs:
= Talls: Carlisle, Goddard >>>> And Coughlan is showing some promis
= Medium: Robo, Webster, (Gilbert-utility) >>>> White is showing promise
= Small: Geary , Savage, McKenzie >>>> Rice

Mids: Ok but only to be the new Richmond to finish 9th each year. We need some more top end talent.
= Elite: Steven (One is not enough)
= A Grade: Armo
= Ross, Newnes and Dunstan now look to be solid contributors. Ross keeps improving each year and so may be better than this. His form this year is encouraging.
= Billings: Elite with his kicking, but the rest of his game needs to improve.
= Gresh: Excites with his poise, but too early to call
= Sinclair. Not proven but I believe can bea mid.
= Freeman??? We desperately need his hammys to come good and for him to make it.

What do you make of Acres sRr?

[saintsRrising]

Acres? What are your thoughts on him?

I was mainly listing the ones that I thought look they have defintely shown that they will be part of our future team. Though I forgot Newnes and so I have have added him in.

Acres. Could be anything or nothing. Definitely has the talent. But like the StKilda team at present he swings wildly in form. The Saints have too many players that go missing at present. Some young players are like Newnes or Ross who just sem to steadily improve. Others are more like Acres where they yo-yo a lot more.

He at times is very exciting such as the bursts from out of packs he has done this year which surprised me with the pace in can generate on the burst. But can he raise his consistency and also the teamplay aspects that the coaches are clearly looking for including his defensive game?

Description Date Opponent Result K HB D M G B T HO GA I50 FF FA AF SC
Round 12 12th Jun Carlton Win 110-78 8 7 15 3 1 0 4 2 1 2 0 0 71 75
Round 8 15th May West Coast Loss 29-132 2 6 8 1 0 0 4 1 0 1 0 1 35 27
Round 7 8th May North Melbourne Loss 75-82 8 4 12 3 0 0 2 0 1 3 0 0 49 62
Round 6 30th Apr Melbourne Win 135-96 16 12 28 7 2 1 5 0 2 2 0 0 126 124
Round 4 16th Apr Hawthorn Loss 84-87 7 6 13 2 0 0 1 0 1 3 1 1 41 46
Round 1 27th Mar Port Adelaide Loss 100-133 14 8 22 3 1 0 2 0 0 3 2 0 83 83


Can he get more involved in the game and be more than a cameo player? That is his challenge, and one that he shares with others. I actually thought his last game against the Blues was not too bad dispite only racking up 15 disposals as he was playinga high half forward type role.

However he is only 20 and has played only 16 games. So plenty of time yet. But then again he is 2 months older than The Bont (admitedllya much earlier draft pick). So it would be good if his game could progressively just start to show that bit more so that you can see an upward trend.

As a tall mid it would be great if he could come on as most of our mids are smallish.

[bigcarl]

As a tall mid it would be great if he can come on as most of our mids are small

Yes, I agree. High half forward is a tough gig for a young player, but I guess you've got to take the vacancies where they come. I think he's better suited in the thick of things.

Really hope he can cement a spot soon as I feel he has huge potential. Decision-making and disposal may be a concern, but but he just has that bit of ball magnet about him and X-factor. He actually has more time than he thinks and is probably strong enough to stand up and keep his feet in a lot of the tackles that will come.

At times he's looked like Lenny on the burst, at other times like Raph ... though I liked Raph. Thought he was under appreciated.

[saintsRrising]

As a tall mid it would be great if he can come on as most of our mids are small

I think he's better suited in the thick of things.

.

I agree. At times he has shone at this. Jus needs to get his workrate and concentraton up. He has the tools.

[skeptic]

I reckon Acres is a certainty and am happy with his progression.

IMO the issue with him at the moment is that his fitness is not at the right level. I reckon the level required for midfielders is far beyond what most 18-20yo olds can manage in an offseason or two.

You tend to note with Acres that the fatigue tends to hit later in quarters/games and that he really falls away the week after. He doesn't have the endurance to back up like others.

I reckon both Blake and the coaching staff know this too and they're working on it... This is part of the reason why he has often been dropped the following week after an seemingly ok performance.

In an interview earlier this year Sebastian Ross spoke a bit about how he simply didn't the fitness to compete like he wanted... IMO that's why after a really promising start, Ross seemingly fell away a bit and consistency was an issue for him until he got to the level he needed to.
Personally that's why I always a big wrap for him.

I reclon Acres will have a similar story

[Bluthy]

Is Fisher, the kid from West Adelaide (noting Sam Fisher also came from West Adelaide) a 200cm key defender able to immediately step into the St Kilda League side and hold his own against the likes of Hogan, Cameron, Franklin et al?

That is the nonsense.

So we have Goddard at 196 who's going to be a big unit. The question comes up do you really want a 200cm guy as well, are you going too big with both those cats in your defence. Clarko has never been worried about playing smaller guys in his defence like Gibson. Frawley is 193. They back their team defence and rucks helping out to get it done against bigger forwards and it gives them a lot of flexibility and run from the back.

So instead if we went with Francis at 191cm, he can play as a third tall. You still have to find another tall back (maybe even two if you want to use Francis through the midfield or in a qtr back role). So you go to work on guys like Lee, Coughlan, Delaney, Roberton and you keep working it to find who can cut the mustard in that role. You also might want to use a 2nd or 3rd rounder to draft a good young tall. You don't need to have it all worked out next year. Yes it may mean we don't play finals next year, or even the year after. But that also lets us keep getting good top picks.

The history of premiership teams is that they often have a patched together backline full of guys that aren't stars but get the job done. You tend to use top picks for big forwards and star mids who are the money makers.

I've still got this a bad feeling about Carlisle. With his age already, injuries, god knows what injected into him by Essendope, his dodgy attitude, his up and down performances at Dons - he still doesn't sit well with me losing our top pick for. We will see of course.

[saintsRrising]

I reckon Acres is a certainty and am happy with his progression.

IMO the issue with him at the moment is that his fitness is not at the right level. I reckon the level required for midfielders is far beyond what most 18-20yo olds can manage in an offseason or two.

You tend to note with Acres that the fatigue tends to hit later in quarters/games and that he really falls away the week after. He doesn't have the endurance to back up like others.

I reckon both Blake and the coaching staff know this too and they're working on it... This is part of the reason why he has often been dropped the following week after an seemingly ok performance.

In an interview earlier this year Sebastian Ross spoke a bit about how he simply didn't the fitness to compete like he wanted... IMO that's why after a really promising start, Ross seemingly fell away a bit and consistency was an issue for him until he got to the level he needed to.
Personally that's why I always a big wrap for him.

I reclon Acres will have a similar story

Armo is a another player that attributed his rise in form as being in large part as being due to get fit enough.

[Con Gorozidis]

At least this thread OP actually understands the concept of 'sliding doors' which is more than I can say for 'Damo' Barrett.

Saying IF I take a dump THEN I will need toilet paper is not a 'sliding door'.

[skeptic]

At least this thread OP actually understands the concept of 'sliding doors' which is more than I can say for 'Damo' Barrett.

Saying IF I take a dump THEN I will need toilet paper is not a 'sliding door'.

Don't you need the hindsight though for it to be a sliding doors moment?

I haven't seen the movie but wasn't the gist of it that you see both outcomes as to what happens/ed if the lady gets on/misses the train when the doors shut.
We don't know how either player's careers pan out or that we would have taken Francis

[To the top]

Hawthorn have been the premier side for the last 3 years and are in contention again this year.

They have just had their 2nd Rising Star nomination since 2013.

The lad nominated is 21 years of age (just inside the eligible age limit) and cites his extended experience at VFL level as the reason he has adapted to AFL football so well.

Hawthorn also cherry pick experienced players from other sides (usually at or near the bottom of the ladder) to maintain their presence.

At St Kilda we have people presenting that experienced, class players such as Fisher and Dempster should be pensioned off and that we should have Drafted an 18 year old instead of recruiting a mature, AFL ready key defender (an area where we have been caught short - excuse the pun - for a number of years).

[Con Gorozidis]

At least this thread OP actually understands the concept of 'sliding doors' which is more than I can say for 'Damo' Barrett.

Saying IF I take a dump THEN I will need toilet paper is not a 'sliding door'.

Don't you need the hindsight though for it to be a sliding doors moment?

I haven't seen the movie but wasn't the gist of it that you see both outcomes as to what happens/ed if the lady gets on/misses the train when the doors shut.
We don't know how either player's careers pan out or that we would have taken Francis

I havent seen the movie either. But I think you are right.
Just funny that most of Barrett's 'sliding doors' are just direct cause and effects.

[Bluthy]

Hawthorn have been the premier side for the last 3 years and are in contention again this year.

They have just had their 2nd Rising Star nomination since 2013.

The lad nominated is 21 years of age (just inside the eligible age limit) and cites his extended experience at VFL level as the reason he has adapted to AFL football so well.

Hawthorn also cherry pick experienced players from other sides (usually at or near the bottom of the ladder) to maintain their presence.

At St Kilda we have people presenting that experienced, class players such as Fisher and Dempster should be pensioned off and that we should have Drafted an 18 year old instead of recruiting a mature, AFL ready key defender (an area where we have been caught short - excuse the pun - for a number of years).

You realise Rooey was once an 18 yo untried player right? Likewise Lenny. Likewise every single player in the AFL. The point is we have gone down the complete rebuilding road. Our advantage was to keep being patient and load up on the elite young untried talent. Some of that will pay off huge in a few years. Instead we've traded down our pick 5 for Carlisle a pick 24 and I don't think he played out a full season at Essendon yet. Their are risks associated with Carlisle. This fantasy that he is some sort of lock to be brilliant defender isn't right. He hasn't dominated on the backline. Why do you think they threw him forward - because he was so utterly brilliant down back?

People get into their heads - wow we've got Carlisle - what a bonus. No, no....no. We traded away our pick 5. That was the cost to get this snap chatty cat. That was the road we went down. We gave something up - something valuable. In this case an extremely promising young backline general/midfielder Aaron Francis. Remember that. If Carlisle is a bit of bust (hopefully not) I don't want people to say "Well who knew - can't blame us for the trade". Yes we can. I don't like the trade. I like Francis. I want Francis. I want a play maker, line breaker from the back that also can play onball as big guy. You took that away from me Richo. I will remember. I...will...remember

[HitTheBoundary]

We gave something up - something valuable. In this case an extremely promising young backline general/midfielder Aaron Francis.

You can't give something up that you never had.

Do you actually KNOW that the club rated Francis and would've taken him?

Or is all this just a speculative bye round time passer?

[Bluthy]

We gave something up - something valuable. In this case an extremely promising young backline general/midfielder Aaron Francis.

You can't give something up that you never had.

Do you actually KNOW that the club rated Francis and would've taken him?

Or is all this just a speculative bye round time passer?

Hey, hey! Drop the attitude. Do I know no. No I don't. I don't know. But if not Franny then another very good young player with potential (yes just potential but holding a bowling ball at the top of the Empire State building has a lot of 'potential' energy that when released will smash someone to smitheriens).

But apparently its ok to speculate about the almighty Jake Carlilse. He will be the greatest defender of the modern age apparently according to everyone here. He's a lock. An absolute lock. The trade was a no brainer. No worry at all about injuires. No worry at all that he didn't tell us about the CA video that he almost certainly knew was floating around. No trust issues there. Why even think about. Just do it. And if he is a bust suddenly it will "oh well, no point crying over spilt milk". These recruiters are paid to speculate and hypothesis and travel forward in time to see how players turn out. They are paid to make sure that milk doesn't spill by not getting the dodgy carton that has been snorting coke.

I've got the guts to pull my cahoonas out, slap em on the bar. I put them on the line and make a call now. This thing I do. Do you? No, you'll just be Mr Hindsighter like most of the board. I make the hard calls. . Yeah I've ordered a code red on Dempster because no one else has the guts to. You NEED me out here saying the things no one else will. I will shoot Bambi despite Dempster's doe eyes.

Where are we going. Where? The questions have to be asked. They just have to.

[HitTheBoundary]

We gave something up - something valuable. In this case an extremely promising young backline general/midfielder Aaron Francis.

You can't give something up that you never had.

Do you actually KNOW that the club rated Francis and would've taken him?

Or is all this just a speculative bye round time passer?

Hey, hey! Drop the attitude. Do I know no. No I don't. I don't know. But if not Franny then another very good young player with potential (yes just potential but holding a bowling ball at the top of the Empire State building has a lot of 'potential' energy that when released will smash someone to smitheriens).

But apparently its ok to speculate about the almighty Jake Carlilse. He will be the greatest defender of the modern age apparently according to everyone here. He's a lock. An absolute lock. The trade was a no brainer. No worry at all about injuires. No worry at all that he didn't tell us about the CA video that he almost certainly knew was floating around. No trust issues there. Why even think about. Just do it. And if he is a bust suddenly it will "oh well, no point crying over spilt milk". These recruiters are paid to speculate and hypothesis and travel forward in time to see how players turn out. They are paid to make sure that milk doesn't spill by not getting the dodgy carton that has been snorting coke.

I've got the guts to pull my cahoonas out, slap em on the bar. I put them on the line and make a call now. This thing I do. Do you? No, you'll just be Mr Hindsighter like most of the board. I make the hard calls. . Yeah I've ordered a code red on Dempster because no one else has the guts to. You NEED me out here saying the things no one else will. I will shoot Bambi despite Dempster's doe eyes.

Where are we going. Where? The questions have to be asked. They just have to.

It was just a question. You answered that you don't know, so thanks for clarifying.

You then followed up with a lot of rather odd imagery.

I think you're bit harsh on Carlisle.
Next thing you'll be telling us he's a drug addict.

[sunsaint]

Richo. I will remember. I...will...remember

what I will remember is our clubs brave stand making a public statement that pick 5 is off the table

then ( does anyone have a complete rollover emoticon?)
Carlisle and Essendon saw us coming from a long way out

[kosifantutti]

Richo. I will remember. I...will...remember

what I will remember is our clubs brave stand making a public statement that pick 5 is off the table

then ( does anyone have a complete rollover emoticon?)
Carlisle and Essendon saw us coming from a long way out

I thought we said there would be no direct trade of pick 5 for Carlisle.

[stonecold]

Never had Francis, so who did we give him up?????

[degruch]

Richo. I will remember. I...will...remember

what I will remember is our clubs brave stand making a public statement that pick 5 is off the table

then ( does anyone have a complete rollover emoticon?)
Carlisle and Essendon saw us coming from a long way out

We said a straight swap was out of the question...so we stuck to our guns. Still a risky trade IMO, but I guess the need for a KPD was obvious and Weitering wasn't going to be sitting there at 6 or 7 or whatever the pick turned into. I thought Talia was worth a look at the time too, but I guess there were serious doubts over his head as to whether he'd be spending the season sitting on the pine. Of course, you have to wonder how a guy like Marcus Adams slipped past so many recruiters!

Back on Francis...we all know it could have been anyone who's name was called (aside from Weitering), so why are we getting weepy over an (unfortunately) injury plagued kid who's yet to debut?

[cwrcyn]

So, if we took Francis in last year's draft, who would we have playing full back in 2017 & 2018 against the 200cm forwards?


Francis might end up being a 20% better player than Gresham, but Carlisle will be a 100% better player than no-one.


Our football department did what it had to do, and I believe Gresham will be as good as many previous players selected in the top 10.

[Bluthy]

So, if we took Francis in last year's draft, who would we have playing full back in 2017 & 2018 against the 200cm forwards?


Francis might end up being a 20% better player than Gresham, but Carlisle will be a 100% better player than no-one.

Our football department did what it had to do, and I believe Gresham will be as good as many previous players selected in the top 10.

Delaney can do a good shutdown job on the gorrilla forwards, Lee has shown a bit at 195. Roberton is 194. Coughlan 193. Fish might play another year and is still taking the main dangerous forward. Goddard hopefully will be back by halfway through the year (who knows could be earlier) Rucks can help out down back. We could look at trading in or drafting another tall back with lower picks or even a rookie. You can patch something together. The point of "best available" is to get elite talent on board with your high picks and then you can wangle things around to fill in gaps with lower drafts and trading.

We gave up our first and second rounder to get Carlisle and Gresham. GResham may have even kept sliding to our second rounder, maybe, maybe not. The point is we would have two players if we went straight to the draft so don't rewrite history. There is this meme of "we had no choice" around Carlisle that isn't true. We very much had a choice. Very much so. And a choice was made. They chose a choice. And we now have to live with that choice that was chosen. Lets hope it turns out 'choice' as our kiwi cousins would say.

[St DAC]

Quite right, the choice was made, and we have to live with it. Only time will tell if it was a good choice, like all trades and draft picks. No point moaning about it now, it's a done deal and has been since trade week last year.

Carlisle can play, and should bolster our out-sized defence next year which was (reasonably IMO) the basis for the trade in the first place.

[Dr Spaceman]

Quite right, the choice was made, and we have to live with it. Only time will tell if it was a good choice, like all trades and draft picks. No point moaning about it now, it's a done deal and has been since trade week last year.

NO NO NO!!!!!

We want whichever one we didn't get!!!!!!!!!! (stomps feet)

[BigMart]

I thought we passed on Parish...

[St DAC]

NO NO NO!!!!!

We want whichever one we didn't get!!!!!!!!!! (stomps feet)

Didn't we not get all but Carlisle and Gresham? We didn't have than many picks for all the rest ...