Sliding Doors - we gave up Aaron Francis

[evo]

" If Carlisle is a bit of bust (hopefully not) I don't want people to say "Well who knew - can't blame us for the trade". Yes we can. I don't like the trade. I like Francis. I want Francis. I want a play maker, line breaker from the back that also can play onball as big guy. You took that away from me Richo. I will remember. I...will...remember " quote

Don't think your going to like this years draft either Bluthy

[Goose is king]

Gresham's goal was better than Francis' goal. That should make make people feel better about the trade

[Spinner]

Gresham's goal was better than Francis' goal. That should make make people feel better about the trade

And it was in the AFL.

[8856brother]

Bluthy has been like a dog at a bone about Carlisle. He's been relentless. The easiest thing you can do is bag the club and Jake while he's not playing. Bluthy has gone as far as calling him a drug addict.

I hope for the clubs sake he has a long and distinguished career with the Saints. Pretty sure there are a few around who actually hope he's a bust for the "I told you so" factor.

God forbid he gets a long term injury next year. That will also be the clubs fault. I'm personally very bullish about both Jake and Gresh. And if Francis becomes a gun, well congrats Bombers.

We're clearly in front atm, simply because only one of the four players in question has played AFL this year. This could change on a monthly basis until it will finally be able to be clearly judged in decade or so. Go your hardest till then. It means nothing today.

[Bluthy]

Well firstly we may still have got Gresh with out second rounder - who knows - little mids are not in vogue. And I find it hilarious that you get called "relentless" or "obsessed" just because you are consistent with your views. Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

This thread was more about the clubs approach to getting into the trading game with our top picks rather than about Carlisle or Gresh. Its a reasoned argument based on Hawks approach to use all their top picks for their match winners - Roughhead, Franklin, Hodge, Rioli. Then trade in to fill gaps particularly the backline. It was a very clever approach. At the moment I think we only have two match winners - Paddy and Billings (Acres is an outside chance). I think we need more.

p.s Yes I really hope Carlisle is a bust then we won't win another flag which will be really great for me. I've got everything crossed we don't win another flag. Thats why I go to the footy and scream myself hoarse (and I'll probably cheer the loudest for Jake). People getting up on their "true supporters" pedestal make me laugh.

[evo]

Don't think we had a second round pick in the draft.

[RODOS]

Well firstly we may still have got Gresh with out second rounder - who knows - little mids are not in vogue. And I find it hilarious that you get called "relentless" or "obsessed" just because you are consistent with your views. Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

This thread was more about the clubs approach to getting into the trading game with our top picks rather than about Carlisle or Gresh. Its a reasoned argument based on Hawks approach to use all their top picks for their match winners - Roughhead, Franklin, Hodge, Rioli. Then trade in to fill gaps particularly the backline. It was a very clever approach. At the moment I think we only have two match winners - Paddy and Billings (Acres is an outside chance). I think we need more.

p.s Yes I really hope Carlisle is a bust then we won't win another flag which will be really great for me. I've got everything crossed we don't win another flag. Thats why I go to the footy and scream myself hoarse (and I'll probably cheer the loudest for Jake). People getting up on their "true supporters" pedestal make me laugh.

Urgh, so Gresh isn't going to be a match winner? He is exactly what a match winner is! A skillful live wire that can turn it on for a patch to win a match! I mean if he had managed to do it last night he could have even won us the ga... oh s***, he did win us the game!!

Your views are different Bluthy, well done. They are also extremely predictable and boring. A character who does not acknowledge their mistakes or show a capacity for change is not a very interesting character. Static.

You're wrong. The trade is going to be great. Admit it.

Also, so (and in good will I'm forecasting your capacity for change) our match winners from the past three drafts (since bottoming out) are, Paddy, Billings, Acres (game v melb, forecasts to be a matchwinner) and Gresh... Pretty much every first round pick we used was on 'matchwinners'. Goddard at 21 wasnt, Dan Mckenzie with his ability to break the lines forecasts to be one if all goes to plan (his game in the twos a few weeks back was dangerfield esque), Dunstan is a workhorse rather than a matchwinner.

That's 5 out of 7

You're wrong Bluth. It's over.

Gresh for the rising star!

[saintsRrising]

Don't think we had a second round pick in the draft.

We did, till we traded it.

In the deal:
- Essendon received Bird and pick No.5, gave up Carlisle and pick No.44, and exchanged pick No.23 for pick No.24;
- St Kilda received Carlisle and pick No.14 and gave up pick No.5 and pick No.24;
- Sydney Swans received picks No.23 and pick No.44, and gave up pick No.14 and Bird.

Due to bidding pick 5 became pick 6 and pick 24 became pick 29. These were uesed on Francis and Alex Morgan.

At present getting in Carlisle and Gresham is looking to be a lot more valuable than if we had just kept and used the picks directly.

[SuperDuper]

Apparently we had White at around 15 on our board... most likely we would have taken him at 29 anyway..

I don't think we had Gresh as high as 6 but we did rate him above some that went before him...

[ace]

Might be a win/win Bluthy. Gresh is showing signs of being something special and Carlisle we know is a quality tall.

But I agree we could do with a big-bodied explosive midfielder.

Called Petracca.

[ace]

Don't think we had a second round pick in the draft.

We did, till we traded it.

In the deal:
- Essendon received Bird and pick No.5, gave up Carlisle and pick No.44, and exchanged pick No.23 for pick No.24;
- St Kilda received Carlisle and pick No.14 and gave up pick No.5 and pick No.24;
- Sydney Swans received picks No.23 and pick No.44, and gave up pick No.14 and Bird.

Due to bidding pick 5 became pick 6 and pick 24 became pick 29. These were uesed on Parish and Alex Morgan.

At present getting in Carlisle and Gresham is looking to be a lot more valuable than if we had just kept and used the picks directly.

Pick 5 became pick 6 due to sydney queue jumping to get Callum Mills - correct
But Essendon had pick 4 that became 5 - they took Darcy Parish with that.
We gave Essendon pick 5 that became 6 - they took Aaron Francis
It is Francis not Parish that we sacrificed to get Gresham.

[ace]

Is this a twisted Darcy Parish argument so we can't say he was gone at that pick.

Essendon took Paish with their original pick.
He was never available to St Kilda before or after the Carlisle trade.
We sacrificed Francis and our second rounder to get Carlisle and Gresham.

On what I have seen Gresham looks like he was bargain at pick 18.

[Dr Spaceman]

Is this a twisted Darcy Parish argument so we can't say he was gone at that pick.

Essendon took Paish with their original pick.
He was never available to St Kilda before or after the Carlisle trade..

Frustrating isn't it?

It's like saying Melbourne gave up McCartin for Petracca



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SaintPav]

Don't think we had a second round pick in the draft.

We did, till we traded it.

In the deal:
- Essendon received Bird and pick No.5, gave up Carlisle and pick No.44, and exchanged pick No.23 for pick No.24;
- St Kilda received Carlisle and pick No.14 and gave up pick No.5 and pick No.24;
- Sydney Swans received picks No.23 and pick No.44, and gave up pick No.14 and Bird.

Due to bidding pick 5 became pick 6 and pick 24 became pick 29. These were uesed on Parish and Alex Morgan.

At present getting in Carlisle and Gresham is looking to be a lot more valuable than if we had just kept and used the picks directly.

Pick 5 became pick 6 due to sydney queue jumping to get Callum Mills - correct
But Essendon had pick 4 that became 5 - they took Darcy Parish with that.
We gave Essendon pick 5 that became 6 - they took Aaron Francis
It is Francis not Parish that we sacrificed to get Gresham.

Not according to Mark Fine on Sunday morning show.

Said the deal was our pick 5 for Carslile and pick 18. Dopes used pick 5 on Parish

[Mr Magic]

Don't think we had a second round pick in the draft.

We did, till we traded it.

In the deal:
- Essendon received Bird and pick No.5, gave up Carlisle and pick No.44, and exchanged pick No.23 for pick No.24;
- St Kilda received Carlisle and pick No.14 and gave up pick No.5 and pick No.24;
- Sydney Swans received picks No.23 and pick No.44, and gave up pick No.14 and Bird.

Due to bidding pick 5 became pick 6 and pick 24 became pick 29. These were uesed on Parish and Alex Morgan.

At present getting in Carlisle and Gresham is looking to be a lot more valuable than if we had just kept and used the picks directly.

Pick 5 became pick 6 due to sydney queue jumping to get Callum Mills - correct
But Essendon had pick 4 that became 5 - they took Darcy Parish with that.
We gave Essendon pick 5 that became 6 - they took Aaron Francis
It is Francis not Parish that we sacrificed to get Gresham.

Not according to Mark Fine on Sunday morning show.

Said the deal was our pick 5 for Carslile and pick 18. Dopes used pick 5 on Parish

If that is what he said then he is simply wrong.

[SaintPav]

He did say it. Not sure why. Maybe he was trying to get St. Kilda supporters to call in.

I have tweeted him about it.

[supersaints]

Well firstly we may still have got Gresh with out second rounder - who knows - little mids are not in vogue. And I find it hilarious that you get called "relentless" or "obsessed" just because you are consistent with your views. Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

This thread was more about the clubs approach to getting into the trading game with our top picks rather than about Carlisle or Gresh. Its a reasoned argument based on Hawks approach to use all their top picks for their match winners - Roughhead, Franklin, Hodge, Rioli. Then trade in to fill gaps particularly the backline. It was a very clever approach. At the moment I think we only have two match winners - Paddy and Billings (Acres is an outside chance). I think we need more.

p.s Yes I really hope Carlisle is a bust then we won't win another flag which will be really great for me. I've got everything crossed we don't win another flag. Thats why I go to the footy and scream myself hoarse (and I'll probably cheer the loudest for Jake). People getting up on their "true supporters" pedestal make me laugh.

I think your quoting Hawthorn out of context , they traded every trust round pick from 2008 until 2015,
2008 Pick #16 Ryan Schoenmaker
2009 Pick #09 Traded for Shaun Burgoyne
2010 Pick #19 Isaac Smith
2011 Pick #24 Traded for Jack Gunston
2012 Pick #21 Traded for Brian Lake
2013 Pick #18 Traded for Ben McEvoy
2014 Pick #19 Traded for Jonathan O’Rourke

In 2015 they used their first draft pick on Ryan Burton and 2016 on Billy Hartung...
And don't forget... in 2016 Clarkson flew overseas to try to entice Carlilse to join the Hawks, instead of selecting us.

[supersaints]

That's "almost" every first round
Pick except for Issac Smith

[degruch]

Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

Those boring posters with their support for the club, coupled with relentless common sense, eh? They really ruin this forum.

[ace]

Don't think we had a second round pick in the draft.

We did, till we traded it.

In the deal:
- Essendon received Bird and pick No.5, gave up Carlisle and pick No.44, and exchanged pick No.23 for pick No.24;
- St Kilda received Carlisle and pick No.14 and gave up pick No.5 and pick No.24;
- Sydney Swans received picks No.23 and pick No.44, and gave up pick No.14 and Bird.

Due to bidding pick 5 became pick 6 and pick 24 became pick 29. These were uesed on Parish and Alex Morgan.

At present getting in Carlisle and Gresham is looking to be a lot more valuable than if we had just kept and used the picks directly.

Pick 5 became pick 6 due to sydney queue jumping to get Callum Mills - correct
But Essendon had pick 4 that became 5 - they took Darcy Parish with that.
We gave Essendon pick 5 that became 6 - they took Aaron Francis
It is Francis not Parish that we sacrificed to get Gresham.

Not according to Mark Fine on Sunday morning show.

Said the deal was our pick 5 for Carslile and pick 18. Dopes used pick 5 on Parish

They certainly did use pick 5 on Parish but not our pick 5 that we gave to Essendon because it became pick 6 when Sydney queue jumped at pick 3 to grab Callum Mills one of their academy players. Essendon already had pick 4 that became pick 5 after Sydney's queue jump.

We got pick 14 but that became pick 18 due to academy and father son queue jumping.
Our second round pick 23 became pick 24 before the draft which we trade to Essendon and then became pick 29 during the draft.

[Bluthy]

Well firstly we may still have got Gresh with out second rounder - who knows - little mids are not in vogue. And I find it hilarious that you get called "relentless" or "obsessed" just because you are consistent with your views. Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

This thread was more about the clubs approach to getting into the trading game with our top picks rather than about Carlisle or Gresh. Its a reasoned argument based on Hawks approach to use all their top picks for their match winners - Roughhead, Franklin, Hodge, Rioli. Then trade in to fill gaps particularly the backline. It was a very clever approach. At the moment I think we only have two match winners - Paddy and Billings (Acres is an outside chance). I think we need more.

p.s Yes I really hope Carlisle is a bust then we won't win another flag which will be really great for me. I've got everything crossed we don't win another flag. Thats why I go to the footy and scream myself hoarse (and I'll probably cheer the loudest for Jake). People getting up on their "true supporters" pedestal make me laugh.

I think your quoting Hawthorn out of context , they traded every trust round pick from 2008 until 2015,
2008 Pick #16 Ryan Schoenmaker
2009 Pick #09 Traded for Shaun Burgoyne
2010 Pick #19 Isaac Smith
2011 Pick #24 Traded for Jack Gunston
2012 Pick #21 Traded for Brian Lake
2013 Pick #18 Traded for Ben McEvoy
2014 Pick #19 Traded for Jonathan O’Rourke

In 2015 they used their first draft pick on Ryan Burton and 2016 on Billy Hartung...
And don't forget... in 2016 Clarkson flew overseas to try to entice Carlilse to join the Hawks, instead of selecting us.

No I'm saying at Ground zero of their rebuild when they were finishing bottom or near bottom they used those high draft picks to get the real cream at the draft and could afford to be patient why they develop as that also kept them down to get more draft picks. Clarkson said they based that on the Saints Rooey era rebuild. Then they went a bit moneyball with lower draft picks that are more speculative to fill gaps. I think it was a clever combo of draft and trading. I'd prefer to be more focussed on the draft as that would keep us down a bit more as they develop and we keep getting some more high draft picks. I think we need a lot more cream to compete with some of the talent on GWS and Melbournes list. Even Dons and Carlton are stocking up on some really good talent. Everything is relative.

[Bluthy]

Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

Those boring posters with their support for the club, coupled with relentless common sense, eh? They really ruin this forum.

How is "Every decision the club and the coach make are correct and shouldn't be criticised or alternatives proposed" common sense? The reality is they will make many incorrect decisions as its incredibly complex.

The weird thing is, some of us ignorant plonkers on here shooting our mouths off would actually get some decisions right that differ from the road the club goes down. Thats the bizarrely wonderful thing about footy and sport in general. Its a weird chaos, complexity theory thing where there is no right approach.

Plus its fun to be a bit grandiose and back yourself. Don't you deep down fancy yourself as a footy savant who despite very little genuine AFL experience or depth just has some natural brilliant insight into the essence of what works in footy better than others? I do. Relax, I'm not about to picket Seaford that they employ me as their tactical/drafting genius. I have some sanity. Although another big loss and I'm staring working on those placards....

[8856brother]

Well firstly we may still have got Gresh with out second rounder - who knows - little mids are not in vogue. And I find it hilarious that you get called "relentless" or "obsessed" just because you are consistent with your views. Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

This thread was more about the clubs approach to getting into the trading game with our top picks rather than about Carlisle or Gresh. Its a reasoned argument based on Hawks approach to use all their top picks for their match winners - Roughhead, Franklin, Hodge, Rioli. Then trade in to fill gaps particularly the backline. It was a very clever approach. At the moment I think we only have two match winners - Paddy and Billings (Acres is an outside chance). I think we need more.

p.s Yes I really hope Carlisle is a bust then we won't win another flag which will be really great for me. I've got everything crossed we don't win another flag. Thats why I go to the footy and scream myself hoarse (and I'll probably cheer the loudest for Jake). People getting up on their "true supporters" pedestal make me laugh.

I don't stand on any pedestal. Ridiculous statement. Just totally disagree on your views on the Carlisle trade. So don't give me crap about "true supporters", and bowing to clubs decisions all the time. I have only commented on your views about Jake. Simple as that. And yes you are relentless about it.

I also don't talk s*** just to create interesting debate.

[saintsRrising]

Don't think we had a second round pick in the draft.

We did, till we traded it.

In the deal:
- Essendon received Bird and pick No.5, gave up Carlisle and pick No.44, and exchanged pick No.23 for pick No.24;
- St Kilda received Carlisle and pick No.14 and gave up pick No.5 and pick No.24;
- Sydney Swans received picks No.23 and pick No.44, and gave up pick No.14 and Bird.

Due to bidding pick 5 became pick 6 and pick 24 became pick 29. These were uesed on Parish (Edit: Francis)and Alex Morgan.

At present getting in Carlisle and Gresham is looking to be a lot more valuable than if we had just kept and used the picks directly.

Pick 5 became pick 6 due to sydney queue jumping to get Callum Mills - correct
But Essendon had pick 4 that became 5 - they took Darcy Parish with that.
We gave Essendon pick 5 that became 6 - they took Aaron Francis
It is Francis not Parish that we sacrificed to get Gresham.

Sorry that was a typo on Parish as I meant to write Francis (and I have stated this in the Parish threads/posts) and as I wrote 5 became 6 and 6 was Francis.

The key point is that at present getting in Carlisle and Gresham is looking to be a lot more valuable than if we had just kept and used the picks directly.

[The_President]

I think Gresh will be better than Francis. Carlisle will be a handy steak knife. In 5-10 years we will all know the answer.

If Gresh ends up better than Francis Ill go nude down Bourke St Mall.
Carlisle better be good. That is all I will say on this.

That's a big call Pluggs