Anyone else disappointed with too many wins this year?

[saynta]

Should have retired Fish , Dempster, Rooo, Gilbert, Geary and should have rested Seb , billings , Acres , Gresh in the seconds so they don't get tired or tackled too hard and encourage them to take up ballet instead of footy.

Fisher, Dempster and Gilbert should be retired for the good of out club.

Im hoping that the mods retire you for the good of this forum.

[magnifisaint]

Anyone else torn and wished re rotated our players more dumped the oldies. Played more kids and had a few less wins but more player development?

Not me

Yeah I love going to the game and watching them lose

[Trev from the Bush]

I see Citywest has found his oxygen bottle. Obviously didn't learn a thing from his "sack Fisher now" diatribe last Sunday.

[Bernard Shakey]

Only down side for me will be our draft picks.

Why? What number was Gresham? What number was Ross?

[Teflon]

Anyone else torn and wished re rotated our players more dumped the oldies. Played more kids and had a few less wins but more player development?

Not me

Nup

That'll sort itself out when roo Joel Dempster fisher Gilbert's et al all go anyhow

[lintonstreet]

Should have retired Fish , Dempster, Rooo, Gilbert, Geary and should have rested Seb , billings , Acres , Gresh in the seconds so they don't get tired or tackled too hard and encourage them to take up ballet instead of footy.

You're kidding right!
Nice

[Jacks Back]

Hawks and Swans have had a combined total of 15 debutantes this year.

Us? 1.

Please tell me how that helps our future development?

[lintonstreet]

Hawks and Swans have had a combined total of 15 debutantes this year.

Us? 1.

Please tell me how that helps our future development?

Easy - we started our rebuild two years ago.
Debuted high numbers last 2 years.

[saintsRrising]

Hawks and Swans have had a combined total of 15 debutantes this year.

Us? 1.

Please tell me how that helps our future development?

Well not 1 as Pierce and Gresham both debuted this season.

And who did we not play that deserved a run? Basically nobody. Longer has had many injiuries and concussion. NOK looks good, but is very light.

Membrey given his chance well after season started and then becamea lock

Gresham, Acres, Billings, Lonie, Minch, Wright, Goodard, Sinclair, McKenzie, MCartin, Murdoch, Pierce and Templeton.

So that is 14 players from the youngsters all rotated through. Membrey and Gresh now locks.

We have spread the love....

[The Craw]

Really disappointed with the Saints winning more games than expected. So much so I have switched teams and have decided to support Brisbane. 100 point thumpings, club a rabble, sacking coaches left right and centre. A sense of calm and normality has swept over me. All is now right in my world.

[lintonstreet]

Really disappointed with the Saints winning more games than expected. So much so I have switched teams and have decided to support Brisbane. 100 point thumpings, club a rabble, sacking coaches left right and centre. A sense of calm and normality has swept over me. All is now right in my world.

I should scold you but trying too hard not to lol

[citywest]

Should have retired Fish , Dempster, Rooo, Gilbert, Geary and should have rested Seb , billings , Acres , Gresh in the seconds so they don't get tired or tackled too hard and encourage them to take up ballet instead of footy.

Fisher, Dempster and Gilbert should be retired for the good of out club.

Im hoping that the mods retire you for the good of this forum.

Why is that Saynta? Is it because my opinion is different to yours? If Dempster and Gilbert go on for one more year I can live with that. But if Fisher goes on as well then that is ridiculous. We need be ruthless as a club ala Geelong.

[SMS]

No.
Look at melbourne and Carlton since 2006. Thats what they did. Young captains no support of experience onfield and look how it goes down?? Badly. We are developing this group perfectly.

[kosifantutti]

My wife will be disappointed when she realises what I've deleted from the IQ Box to fit those wins in.

[Bluthy]

Well I've been quiet on this matter but I will take this opportunity to contribute to the market place of ideas.

Answer: Yes. I love winning as much as the next geezer but I want a second flag even more than short-term bragging rights.

We've been too results focused this year instead of really testing the list out and doing some experimenting. The added benefit is we end up with a better draft pick - we still need cream and there is no guarantee we will land a big trade/FA (and a higher draft pick helps with that)

Curren was tearing it up in the first half of the year and deserved a game. Lee looked unlikely but deserved more of a shot. Murdoch showed a bit in his couple of games. Pierce really should have played 3 or 4 games min to know what he needs to work towards and give him encouragement and see if he has that ability to be a ruck fwd. Eli has been getting leather poisoning in the two's but without just reward.

We've been way too conservative with our old backline. Lee, Delaney, Coughlan, White all could have got more games to test them out. It took injuries to Demps and Fish to shake it up a bit and gave us a different look at the back which actually worked well - Robbo really stepped up and is now benefiting from that.

Plus I worry about the toll this brutal pressuring/tackling game plan is taking on the young players. Dunstan played in the hottest part of the kitchen is now falling apart. Gresh is being run down in his first year when his body still needs a lot of development (now being thrown in the middle against swans brutes - good luck little greshy - hope you come out with your head on your shoulders). Billings struggling, Lonie and Sincs lost their great skills they were showing, McCartin multiple concusssions. Is Richo's game plan too bash and crash? That's why a b-grader like Wright fits in - a Lyonesque approach to play a guy who will do an immediate job for results but won't develop your team long term. Why aren't we developing our keep-the-footy game plan we seemed to be developing our list for with Pelchen?

Ambition is a dish best served cold. I think Richo has got carried away with the thought of finals this year. We may well rue such a short-sighted approach. I understand the "winning culture" argument. But you can get too panicy about that - Melbourne, melbourne, Melbourne - everyone shouts, conveniently forgetting about our previous rebuild and Hawthorns where we were both down for a long time, loaded up on real cream - Clarkson was almost sacked - and set up a decade of being at the top of the ladder - didn't damage our winning culture did it?

Signed,
Some Alarm and Very Alert

[Wrote for Luck]

No way. Winning is what it is all about. Also I believe in playing your best side. Anything else makes a mockery of the selection process.

I don't entirely agree.

I think the mentality needs to be different throughout the club.

Playing group, obviously need to have a rabid 'win everything' mentality.

But the rest of the club needs to be smart about it. Getting 4 points each weekend at any cost isn't always best for the club.


Picking the 'best team' every week in order to win that specific match isn't a smart approach to building a team in my opinion. The most appropriate team should be picked each week in order to prepare us to win a flag in the future.

Same approach to recruiting. There will be recruitment decisions done for 'the now', but most will be about setting the club for a solid run at the flag at some point.

I mostly entirely agree!

[Vazelos]

You need to develop a winning culture, you don't go from losing to winning that easily, it's gradual and you cannot attract elite players if your not showing a window of success is is imminent.
Players like Hurley, Fyfe and O Meara won't come to losing sides with poor cultures.

[Bluthy]

You need to develop a winning culture, you don't go from losing to winning that easily, it's gradual and you cannot attract elite players if your not showing a window of success is is imminent.
Players like Hurley, Fyfe and O Meara won't come to losing sides with poor cultures.

That's over sold. Hawthorn did it just fine without winning a lot early. What is better for your club is doing your rebuild right so you can stay up for a decade rather than rise quickly and then fall just as quick like Richmond and Port.

[citywest]

Well I've been quiet on this matter but I will take this opportunity to contribute to the market place of ideas.

Answer: Yes. I love winning as much as the next geezer but I want a second flag even more than short-term bragging rights.

We've been too results focused this year instead of really testing the list out and doing some experimenting. The added benefit is we end up with a better draft pick - we still need cream and there is no guarantee we will land a big trade/FA (and a higher draft pick helps with that)

Curren was tearing it up in the first half of the year and deserved a game. Lee looked unlikely but deserved more of a shot. Murdoch showed a bit in his couple of games. Pierce really should have played 3 or 4 games min to know what he needs to work towards and give him encouragement and see if he has that ability to be a ruck fwd. Eli has been getting leather poisoning in the two's but without just reward.

We've been way too conservative with our old backline. Lee, Delaney, Coughlan, White all could have got more games to test them out. It took injuries to Demps and Fish to shake it up a bit and gave us a different look at the back which actually worked well - Robbo really stepped up and is now benefiting from that.

Plus I worry about the toll this brutal pressuring/tackling game plan is taking on the young players. Dunstan played in the hottest part of the kitchen is now falling apart. Gresh is being run down in his first year when his body still needs a lot of development (now being thrown in the middle against swans brutes - good luck little greshy - hope you come out with your head on your shoulders). Billings struggling, Lonie and Sincs lost their great skills they were showing, McCartin multiple concusssions. Is Richo's game plan too bash and crash? That's why a b-grader like Wright fits in - a Lyonesque approach to play a guy who will do an immediate job for results but won't develop your team long term. Why aren't we developing our keep-the-footy game plan we seemed to be developing our list for with Pelchen?

Ambition is a dish best served cold. I think Richo has got carried away with the thought of finals this year. We may well rue such a short-sighted approach. I understand the "winning culture" argument. But you can get too panicy about that - Melbourne, melbourne, Melbourne - everyone shouts, conveniently forgetting about our previous rebuild and Hawthorns where we were both down for a long time, loaded up on real cream - Clarkson was almost sacked - and set up a decade of being at the top of the ladder - didn't damage our winning culture did it?

Signed,
Some Alarm and Very Alert

Very good post Bluthy.
I too am alarmed. I don't want us to be like Port making the prelim one year and then falling off the map the next. We have had too many false dawn's in my life time. The Saints have to be ruthless and cut the list hard this year. Trading or de-listing players that they believe are not good enough is only the first step. The second step, and more importantly, is to phase out the aging stars. I know this is not going to go down to well on here but I would have asked Fisher (already turned 34 back in July), Riewoldt (turns 34 in October) and Montagna (turns 33 in November), to retire. Now before everyone starts trotting out the Melbourne scenario/crap, we would still have the following experience....Steven (27 in March 2017), Savage (26 in January 2017), Geary (29 in June 2017), Gilbert (turns 30 next week), Armitage (29 in June 2017), Dempster (33 in January 2017).
I acknowledge that without Fisher, Riewoldt and Montagna we may not make the top 8 again next year. But the benefits are that the team gets used to playing without those stars a year earlier because at the end of the day they won't be there when we are challenging again. Anyway, this is all hypothetical because the club will not do this. Not only will Rooey and Joey be playing again, I suspect Fisher will also get another year.

[felix]

Should have retired Fish , Dempster, Rooo, Gilbert, Geary and should have rested Seb , billings , Acres , Gresh in the seconds so they don't get tired or tackled too hard and encourage them to take up ballet instead of footy.

You're kidding right!
Nice

Of course this thread is about having a dig at a particular poster ...isn't it.?

[Johnny Member]

Well I've been quiet on this matter but I will take this opportunity to contribute to the market place of ideas.

Answer: Yes. I love winning as much as the next geezer but I want a second flag even more than short-term bragging rights.

We've been too results focused this year instead of really testing the list out and doing some experimenting. The added benefit is we end up with a better draft pick - we still need cream and there is no guarantee we will land a big trade/FA (and a higher draft pick helps with that)

Curren was tearing it up in the first half of the year and deserved a game. Lee looked unlikely but deserved more of a shot. Murdoch showed a bit in his couple of games. Pierce really should have played 3 or 4 games min to know what he needs to work towards and give him encouragement and see if he has that ability to be a ruck fwd. Eli has been getting leather poisoning in the two's but without just reward.

We've been way too conservative with our old backline. Lee, Delaney, Coughlan, White all could have got more games to test them out. It took injuries to Demps and Fish to shake it up a bit and gave us a different look at the back which actually worked well - Robbo really stepped up and is now benefiting from that.

Plus I worry about the toll this brutal pressuring/tackling game plan is taking on the young players. Dunstan played in the hottest part of the kitchen is now falling apart. Gresh is being run down in his first year when his body still needs a lot of development (now being thrown in the middle against swans brutes - good luck little greshy - hope you come out with your head on your shoulders). Billings struggling, Lonie and Sincs lost their great skills they were showing, McCartin multiple concusssions. Is Richo's game plan too bash and crash? That's why a b-grader like Wright fits in - a Lyonesque approach to play a guy who will do an immediate job for results but won't develop your team long term. Why aren't we developing our keep-the-footy game plan we seemed to be developing our list for with Pelchen?

Ambition is a dish best served cold. I think Richo has got carried away with the thought of finals this year. We may well rue such a short-sighted approach. I understand the "winning culture" argument. But you can get too panicy about that - Melbourne, melbourne, Melbourne - everyone shouts, conveniently forgetting about our previous rebuild and Hawthorns where we were both down for a long time, loaded up on real cream - Clarkson was almost sacked - and set up a decade of being at the top of the ladder - didn't damage our winning culture did it?

Signed,
Some Alarm and Very Alert

I think you're wrong.

I don't think the club has approached this season with a 'must win every week' mentality at all. And I think any suggestion that Richardson is putting short term win/loss ratio ahead of medium/long term planning toward winning a flag is ridiculous.


From what I see, he wants us to play a high pressure, aggressive style of footy. And clearly, guys like Billings can't do it week in week out yet. So they get rested, and hard older bodies like Gilbert get played every week. Most on here get outraged that talent is in the 2's, whilst guys with less ability are playing in the 1's. It's completely contradictory to what you're suggesting.

It appears to me, that at this early stage of our development as a team, attitude is more important than execution. Old guys getting games every week whilst the McCartin's, Acres' and Billings' of the world go in and out of the team each week is clear evidence that we're not playing for the now. We're developing players and a game style for the future.



I see absolutely nothing to suggest we're being short sighted. And considering the club has set a 2018 vision at the top level of the club - it's absurd to suggest that the head coach is breaking ranks and sacrificing the club vision to win more games in 2016.

[Trev from the Bush]

I am really starting to wonder if Bluthy has morphed into Citywest. Both want us to be successful, but are down in the mouth because we have won 10 games this season when most were ready for status quo season to last, ie, 6 wins. The 6 and a draw last season was deemed a surprise result; most on this forum seemed to be predicting 2 to 4 wins.

Damn StKilda! They go out and improve more than they were supposed to in 2015! How dare they!

Come 2016 and 10 wins with three rounds to go. Even if we lose all three it has been a good season for the Saints with a much-improved playing style. Bluthy, if you don't like our physical style you had better go follow touch footy - it ain't going away if you expect to be competitive and successful in the AFL! 13 wins are a possibility this season but I don't know if the Swans have read our script. Given Brisbane won today (and, yes, I was the only one to tip them in our local pub competition which puts me back in front) the last round is no 100-point certainty for the Saints. And who knows what Richmond will turn up at the MCG next week? (I don't care - I reckon our game is better suited to the MCG than it has been any time this century)

The Pres rightly said he expected us to be back in the finals in 2018. Given the "unexpected" improvement this and last season its fair to say that it's not our supporters getting ahead of themselves - its the team.

And I, like so many others, are bloody well enjoying the rise up the ladder! Any Saint "supporter" that isn't needs to pull up the couch at their doctors, get back on their medication or go sit in the middle of Moorabbin Oval and reminisce about the "good old days" from the mid-70's to the 90's.

[lintonstreet]

Well I've been quiet on this matter but I will take this opportunity to contribute to the market place of ideas.

Answer: Yes. I love winning as much as the next geezer but I want a second flag even more than short-term bragging rights.

We've been too results focused this year instead of really testing the list out and doing some experimenting. The added benefit is we end up with a better draft pick - we still need cream and there is no guarantee we will land a big trade/FA (and a higher draft pick helps with that)

Curren was tearing it up in the first half of the year and deserved a game. Lee looked unlikely but deserved more of a shot. Murdoch showed a bit in his couple of games. Pierce really should have played 3 or 4 games min to know what he needs to work towards and give him encouragement and see if he has that ability to be a ruck fwd. Eli has been getting leather poisoning in the two's but without just reward.

We've been way too conservative with our old backline. Lee, Delaney, Coughlan, White all could have got more games to test them out. It took injuries to Demps and Fish to shake it up a bit and gave us a different look at the back which actually worked well - Robbo really stepped up and is now benefiting from that.

Plus I worry about the toll this brutal pressuring/tackling game plan is taking on the young players. Dunstan played in the hottest part of the kitchen is now falling apart. Gresh is being run down in his first year when his body still needs a lot of development (now being thrown in the middle against swans brutes - good luck little greshy - hope you come out with your head on your shoulders). Billings struggling, Lonie and Sincs lost their great skills they were showing, McCartin multiple concusssions. Is Richo's game plan too bash and crash? That's why a b-grader like Wright fits in - a Lyonesque approach to play a guy who will do an immediate job for results but won't develop your team long term. Why aren't we developing our keep-the-footy game plan we seemed to be developing our list for with Pelchen?

Ambition is a dish best served cold. I think Richo has got carried away with the thought of finals this year. We may well rue such a short-sighted approach. I understand the "winning culture" argument. But you can get too panicy about that - Melbourne, melbourne, Melbourne - everyone shouts, conveniently forgetting about our previous rebuild and Hawthorns where we were both down for a long time, loaded up on real cream - Clarkson was almost sacked - and set up a decade of being at the top of the ladder - didn't damage our winning culture did it?

Signed,
Some Alarm and Very Alert

I think you're wrong.

I don't think the club has approached this season with a 'must win every week' mentality at all. And I think any suggestion that Richardson is putting short term win/loss ratio ahead of medium/long term planning toward winning a flag is ridiculous.


From what I see, he wants us to play a high pressure, aggressive style of footy. And clearly, guys like Billings can't do it week in week out yet. So they get rested, and hard older bodies like Gilbert get played every week. Most on here get outraged that talent is in the 2's, whilst guys with less ability are playing in the 1's. It's completely contradictory to what you're suggesting.

It appears to me, that at this early stage of our development as a team, attitude is more important than execution. Old guys getting games every week whilst the McCartin's, Acres' and Billings' of the world go in and out of the team each week is clear evidence that we're not playing for the now. We're developing players and a game style for the future.



I see absolutely nothing to suggest we're being short sighted. And considering the club has set a 2018 vision at the top level of the club - it's absurd to suggest that the head coach is breaking ranks and sacrificing the club vision to win more games in 2016.

Richo has been spot on since he joined the club.
He blooded some kids early and his policy is that if you play well you hold your spot.
If any club needs to instill a winning attitude it's the Saints.
The notion of throwing some games to drop in form players and blood some youngsters if bordering on the insane.
These boys go out there believing they can win every game.
I caught up with two of them during the week and they have no doubt they can beat the swans.
Self-belief is halfway there.
+1 Richo

[lintonstreet]

Well I've been quiet on this matter but I will take this opportunity to contribute to the market place of ideas.

Answer: Yes. I love winning as much as the next geezer but I want a second flag even more than short-term bragging rights.

We've been too results focused this year instead of really testing the list out and doing some experimenting. The added benefit is we end up with a better draft pick - we still need cream and there is no guarantee we will land a big trade/FA (and a higher draft pick helps with that)

Curren was tearing it up in the first half of the year and deserved a game. Lee looked unlikely but deserved more of a shot. Murdoch showed a bit in his couple of games. Pierce really should have played 3 or 4 games min to know what he needs to work towards and give him encouragement and see if he has that ability to be a ruck fwd. Eli has been getting leather poisoning in the two's but without just reward.

We've been way too conservative with our old backline. Lee, Delaney, Coughlan, White all could have got more games to test them out. It took injuries to Demps and Fish to shake it up a bit and gave us a different look at the back which actually worked well - Robbo really stepped up and is now benefiting from that.

Plus I worry about the toll this brutal pressuring/tackling game plan is taking on the young players. Dunstan played in the hottest part of the kitchen is now falling apart. Gresh is being run down in his first year when his body still needs a lot of development (now being thrown in the middle against swans brutes - good luck little greshy - hope you come out with your head on your shoulders). Billings struggling, Lonie and Sincs lost their great skills they were showing, McCartin multiple concusssions. Is Richo's game plan too bash and crash? That's why a b-grader like Wright fits in - a Lyonesque approach to play a guy who will do an immediate job for results but won't develop your team long term. Why aren't we developing our keep-the-footy game plan we seemed to be developing our list for with Pelchen?

Ambition is a dish best served cold. I think Richo has got carried away with the thought of finals this year. We may well rue such a short-sighted approach. I understand the "winning culture" argument. But you can get too panicy about that - Melbourne, melbourne, Melbourne - everyone shouts, conveniently forgetting about our previous rebuild and Hawthorns where we were both down for a long time, loaded up on real cream - Clarkson was almost sacked - and set up a decade of being at the top of the ladder - didn't damage our winning culture did it?

Signed,
Some Alarm and Very Alert

I think you're wrong.

I don't think the club has approached this season with a 'must win every week' mentality at all. And I think any suggestion that Richardson is putting short term win/loss ratio ahead of medium/long term planning toward winning a flag is ridiculous.


From what I see, he wants us to play a high pressure, aggressive style of footy. And clearly, guys like Billings can't do it week in week out yet. So they get rested, and hard older bodies like Gilbert get played every week. Most on here get outraged that talent is in the 2's, whilst guys with less ability are playing in the 1's. It's completely contradictory to what you're suggesting.

It appears to me, that at this early stage of our development as a team, attitude is more important than execution. Old guys getting games every week whilst the McCartin's, Acres' and Billings' of the world go in and out of the team each week is clear evidence that we're not playing for the now. We're developing players and a game style for the future.



I see absolutely nothing to suggest we're being short sighted. And considering the club has set a 2018 vision at the top level of the club - it's absurd to suggest that the head coach is breaking ranks and sacrificing the club vision to win more games in 2016.

Richo has been spot on since he joined the club.
He blooded some kids early and his policy is that if you play well you hold your spot.
If any club needs to instill a winning attitude it's the Saints.
The notion of throwing some games to drop in form players and blood some youngsters if bordering on the insane.
These boys go out there believing they can win every game.
I caught up with two of them during the week and they have no doubt they can beat the swans.
Self-belief is halfway there.
+1 Richo