Big Boy McEvoy

[silverhalo]

Big Boy done nothing to deserve this. We traded him out. He'[s been a great servant for the hawks. he's won 2 flags. Not sure the point of the thread, he never wanted to leave the Saints. Plenty of other more worthy recipients of bagging tonight of the Hawks.................

+1

This has to be up there with the worst post ever started on Saintsational - poor form.

[prwilkinson]

Big Boy done nothing to deserve this. We traded him out. He'[s been a great servant for the hawks. he's won 2 flags. Not sure the point of the thread, he never wanted to leave the Saints. Plenty of other more worthy recipients of bagging tonight of the Hawks.................

+1

This has to be up there with the worst post ever started on Saintsational - poor form.

+1

[saint-stu]

I have always liked Big Mac and was disappointed that we traded him (although reasonably happy with the return). Have watched him at the Hawks and hoped he would do well. His intercept marking in defence was a weapon.

[Junior]

Played in more premierships than we as a club have won, a serviceable ruckman who does his role.

Gave his all as a player for us, don't see the need to pot him.

[Johnny Member]

I saw this thread as more of a 'phew, it turns out we made the right call on that trade', as opposed to a 'suffer in your jocks!' thread.

Really, he's not a great player. Probably below average when compared to the camp's leading ruckmen, but he did exactly what Hawthor recruited him for.

And, we've done well from the trade also. Very well.

On top of that, I'd say all players involved are cool with it too.

[Bluthy]

Bad call Skeptic. I think McEvoy fitted perfectly into the hawks system. Losing Franklin they were able to use Macca as a ruck who provided good defensive cover and a marking target around the ground but also good marking big forward to give them great flexibility and give no let up in the ruck which is important in finals.. Losing Roughhead was bridge too far for the hawks in terms of not having a power forward and also only having the one experienced ruck in Mcevoy.

I'm a big fan of the huge unit rucks in finals where their ability to bash and crash, open up space for mids, land 100kg on top of oppo mids. Clark Keating, King, Mumford, Ottens all came into their own in finals. That's why I'm still hesitant about Hicks. He's had one good season. Need to see if his body can hold up and then how effective he'll be in finals as he's more the athletic type of ruck. Although Dogs did well last night using Roughead in the ruck and using his athleticism around the ground to stretch the hawks.

At the moment we are really crossing our fingers that Paddy can stay on the ground to be that pack splitter forward we need. I still would like to see us keep working towards a two ruck system which I think is really effective in finals to give us that option of a second huge forward to make defenders have to peel off their man to kill contests. Its a huge risk going in with one ruck - what if he twists his ankle in the first 10 mins.

[The_President]

Oh, here we go, let's kick him now that it's over, poor form!!!!!

True, if we kicked you everytime you were wrong you'd be nothing but dust

[saynta]

The trade got us either of Dunstan or Acres - plus Savage who, whilst a list player, is handy for depth.

!

Actually got us both of them from memory.

[skeptic]

6 kicks
5 handballs
3 marks

Beaten in the centre, no influence

In what language is that playing well!!?


I don't understand why ppl are so quick to make threads like this seem personal. I don't have a personal dislike for the guy... Certainly had no issue with him leaving, it was a good trade

IMO he's just really overrated.
People give us schtick for letting him go but we are way out in front on that trade and I think we correctly identified that he's not a primary #1 ruck.

He should have been the player that stemmed the flow or kept them in it...
Each to their own I guess

[mad saint guy]

6 kicks
5 handballs
3 marks

Beaten in the centre, no influence

In what language is that playing well!!?

38 hitouts
2 contested marks
7 contested possessions
1 goal assist
2 clearances
6 1%ers
5 tackles

Very solid game from a ruck. Bizarre thread. We all know McEvoy isn't a superstar but he's a solid, reliable number one ruck who is a great mark, has very good endurance and clean skills. He's also just entering his physical prime as a ruckman. He works very well in the Hawthorn system and has helped them win the last two flags.

I do believe Hickey is a better ruckman and that Longer is likely to become a better ruck as well, but I'm not sure why that means we've got to attack a decent ex-St Kilda player who never asked to be traded. From that trade we netted Dunstan, Acres and Savage while they got McEvoy and Hartung; genuine win-win trade which both clubs would be feeling good about.

[lewdogs]

Went to both Hawk finals and I thought Macca was one of their best on both. Particularly last week, he provided great options in the centre of the ground.

We did the right thing in trading him bit I love Macca and really, good on him. Has made the most of opportunities and improved as a ruck since the Saints days when he couldn't win a tap to save himself.

[skeptic]

6 kicks
5 handballs
3 marks

Beaten in the centre, no influence

In what language is that playing well!!?

38 hitouts
2 contested marks
7 contested possessions
1 goal assist
2 clearances
6 1%ers
5 tackles

Very solid game from a ruck. Bizarre thread. We all know McEvoy isn't a superstar but he's a solid, reliable number one ruck who is a great mark, has very good endurance and clean skills. He's also just entering his physical prime as a ruckman. He works very well in the Hawthorn system and has helped them win the last two flags.

I do believe Hickey is a better ruckman and that Longer is likely to become a better ruck as well, but I'm not sure why that means we've got to attack a decent ex-St Kilda player who never asked to be traded. From that trade we netted Dunstan, Acres and Savage while they got McEvoy and Hartung; genuine win-win trade which both clubs would be feeling good about.

Exactly... Solid game. Not a good game. He is in his prime and you should be expecting good performances from him.

38 hitouts yet they lost the centre clearances, the clearances at stoppages and the clearances overall
It's a relatively meaningless stat but i doubt he did that well at the hit outs to advantage as well

He had little influence in the centre

His direct opponent in Jordan Roughhead who is two years younger and played roughly 100 less games also had 11 disposals, 4 marks and two tackles... Not to mention he had more 1%ers and a goal assist of his own. Also kicked a goal and a behind.
Yeah he had 20 less hit outs but he was more than competitive but more importantly he wasn't smashed

I can't find the quarter by quarter breakdown stats but i'd wager my bottom dollar that the bulk of McEvoy's stats and influence occurred in the first half, pbly in the second quarter when his side got on top for a while.

Either way you look at MSG these handpicked meta stats to prove a point don't tell a clear story...
Ben should have been a dominant player last night and was far from it and IMO is a vastly overrated player whose weaknesses are overlooked in a team that has been really dominant for a long time.

The fact that he didn't specifically want to leave, that he's played in premierships, that he's a good guy etc are all irrelevant to this thread. I'm criticising his performance both in last night's game and overall. IMO we were right to trade him and correctly identified his limitations whilst Hawthorn overrated his potential.
I don't have a personal dislike of the kid, he tried his best and gave his all for our club. I was actually in the camp that was sad to see him go because i worried we traded him too early and he was about to enter his peak

I think we come out ahead on that trade by getting Dustan alone

[stonecold]

Oh, here we go, let's kick him now that it's over, poor form!!!!!

True, if we kicked you everytime you were wrong you'd be nothing but dust

Haha, if we kicked you everytime you bought something to this forum, you'd be Bruise Free and we'd never have to buy new boots!!!!!

[saintbrat]

As a side note in the paper today Mcevoy and Bruest listed as names to be considered for trades.

[BigMart]

Clearances when you win the ruck are about mids

The hit out win (unless it's a clear win, which is about 10-20%) gives your centre square set up about a 45-55 advantage

The rest is up to the mids

Libba, Bont and Co got to work on Hawthorns biggest weakness
Contested ball

As far as McEvoys numbers go on the weekend
How do they compare to Hickeys averages??

[skeptic]

How do they compare to Hickey's influence verses Ben's?
I know who I'd rather have

[BigMart]

How do you measure influence

Preference? Bias? Output?

[skeptic]

It's a difficult concept to grasp so I'll try to break it down for you. I watch the game and player and the things they do that impact on the result...
I weigh that against what is a reasonable expectation of that performance. There's less of a reliance on selected stats chosen specifically improve my argument. It's not that complicated.

But look if you prefer McEvoy to Hickey that's ur opinion... And it's also a glowing endorsement as to why handpicked stats are meaningless

[saintsRrising]

Clearances when you win the ruck are about mids

The hit out win (unless it's a clear win, which is about 10-20%) gives your centre square set up about a 45-55 advantage

The rest is up to the mids

Libba, Bont and Co got to work on Hawthorns biggest weakness
Contested ball

As far as McEvoys numbers go on the weekend
How do they compare to Hickeys averages??

Hickey would have kept up with the play providing an extra mid in himself. Hickey is very good at hand balling out to team mates.

Whereas Ben is very slow, cannot keep up and so often just plays a kick behind the play by default.

Stats wise Ben's game looks ok. But he had very little influence on the game. Perfect example of how stats are often misleading.

[skeptic]

Clearances when you win the ruck are about mids

The hit out win (unless it's a clear win, which is about 10-20%) gives your centre square set up about a 45-55 advantage

The rest is up to the mids

Libba, Bont and Co got to work on Hawthorns biggest weakness
Contested ball

As far as McEvoys numbers go on the weekend
How do they compare to Hickeys averages??

Hickey would have kept up with the play providing an extra mid in himself. Hickey is very good at hand balling out to team mates.

Whereas Ben is very slow, cannot keep up and so often just plays a kick behind the play by default.

Stats wise Ben's game looks ok. But he had very little influence on the game. Perfect example of how stats are often misleading.

To add to that, he's a 27yo ruckman with 200 games under his belt with excellent support around him both in terms of midfield and ruck to a lesser degree.
His direct opponents are younger and less experienced then him.

He should have had a field day... The word that should have neen used to describe his performance is dominant.

Was he dominant?

Hickey is actually a good example of a ruck that can put in a dominant performance and have a major influence on games IMO... Maybe mot every week but he does play essentially on his own relying on Bruce for a chop out and has less quality around him

[BigMart]

Hawthorns mids are awful..... They are one of the worst stoppage teams in the AFL.

Numbers are only mis leading when they don't help to give evidence for your argument.

Coaches use numbers, players use numbers, experts use numbers to try and prove their point or make a point.
Anything else is just subjective opinion.

Important stats measure a players/teams effectiveness

Their is no denying... Strong team data equals strong team performance.

[skeptic]

Hawthorns mids are awful..... They are one of the worst stoppage teams in the AFL.

Numbers are only mis leading when they don't help to give evidence for your argument.

Coaches use numbers, players use numbers, experts use numbers to try and prove their point or make a point.
Anything else is just subjective opinion.

Important stats measure a players/teams effectiveness

Their is no denying... Strong team data equals strong team performance.

Stats are not the only measure of performance. It's not a hard argument to grasp.

[BigMart]

No

There is personal opinion... Which of course is reliable

[skeptic]

Seriously?

Why even watch the game then? Just log on to footywire after the match and you'll be able to break it down completely because stats capture everything...

Are you really arguing that numbers on a piece of paper are better than witnessing something yourself!!!

I can see why you hate a Cyril Rioli type, you pbly hated Max Hudghton too. On the other hand I once watched Aaron Fiora collect a lazy 45 possessions behind play and kicking short passes against Adelaide in a game we lost by 15 goals... I bet you must have thought it was the single greatest game you'd ever witness someone play

[skeptic]

Don't go see the next Avengers movie either... Just read the synoposis online and share the same experience