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BackFromUSA wrote: ↑Sun 17 Mar 2019 9:15am
I believe the player has received advice to retire. He has refused. Whilst I believe he cannot be cut from the list, I certainly hope the club does not select him to play at any level.
The implications of what you are saying are potentially massive for our footy club.
If Paddy refuses to retire but the club insists, the next thing that will happen is he’ll get a lawyer. It’s what you or I would do if we were him.
That lawyer is going to tell him Mr McCartin you have an excellent case. Eight concussions, number one draft pick, expectation, pressure to perform etc etc.
If he wins it will cost the club and the AFL millions because he will sue both.
And a court victory , as a test case, would open the floodgates to any professional sports person who kept playing after multiple concussions. It’s called duty of care.
This is not a small thing we are talking about. The ramifications could be huge.
I never said that the club insists he retires. I have said that if he decides to continue that they treat him like any injured player and not select him.
AwayInUSA no longer ... have based myself back in Melbourne for a decade of Saintsational Success (with regular trips back to the USA)
BackFromUSA wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 8:01am
I never said that the club insists he retires. I have said that if he decides to continue that they treat him like any injured player and not select him.
The bit I was talking about was Paddy’s refusal to retire. And what might flow from that. The club will have to take a position of some kind. Either insist or not select him or try to persuade him to change his mind. Whatever happens it is likely to end in legal action in my view.
Players are forced to retire from various sports due to injury, and although Paddy is dedicated to making it at the top level, his concussion issues will prevent this, and it will be hard for him to manage the disappointment. The long-term implications of multiple concussions is well documented. I know some people who are still suffering issues from knocks to the head years earlier. Just like the ex players who have had multiple leg injuries and are now hobbling around with premature arthritis in their joints directly as a result, head injuries will most likely have lingering after-effects, long after the event.
damienc wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:43am
If you don’t mind me saying so you appear to be blinded by the obvious.
The club kept playing McCartin after 7 concussions.
I truly believe the club would have kept playing Koby had he wanted to continue his footy career as Paddy clearly does.
We are not the only club to have done this. It has to change.
I don't think I am blinded at all. Perhaps you missed.
saintsRrising wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 12:37am
PS. I have no doubt that Paddy is at the crossroads re playing ever again. It may well be that the decision has virtually been made and they are giving him time to adjust.
Either way I have no doubt that the matter is not being taking seriously by the club or player.
With a wife who had a TBI bad enough to be in hospital and recovery for many months, and not allowed to work or drive for longer and a nephew who died from a "coward's punch" I think I have probably a fair bit better knowledge of concussion than most after having studied the topic, met with neurosurgeons etc. Plus I know a former StKFC Club Dr socially.
From what I have observed of the club they have changed quite markedly in this area.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
I truly believe the club would have kept playing Koby had he wanted to continue his footy career as Paddy clearly does.
While you are entitled to you opinion, I believe that you are 100% wrong. Your stated views do not seem to accord at all with what he said last year on retiring or in interviews afterwards. Certainly I cannot recall anything where he stated or implied that the club was trying to get him to play on. Indeed once he as he said came clean about what he was suffering from with the Club's Doctors his career finished soon afterwards.
Koby Steven himself has said that last year after retiring " The last few years has changed so much"
1) Why are previously concussed six times more likely to be hit again?
Source: https://www.aans.org/Patients/Neurosurg ... Concussion
According to the University of Pittsburgh's Brain Trauma Research Center, more than 300,000 sports-related concussions occur annually in the U.S., and the likelihood of suffering a concussion while playing a contact sport is estimated to be as high as 19 percent per year of play. More than 62,000 concussions are sustained each year in high school contact sports and, among college football players, 34 percent have had one concussion and 20 percent have endured multiple concussions. Estimates show that between four and 20 percent of college and high school football players will sustain a brain injury over the course of one season. The risk of concussion in football is three to six times higher in players who have had a previous concussion.
2) Can we train ourselves to prevent "friendly fire" by co-ordinating better?
3) Paddy's diabolical waddle backwards into harms way in that JLT game makes me wonder if, a) anything could ever be taught and learned, even a simple rule-to-self like 'brace for impact', and b) play must be instrinctive and players have only eyes for the ball.
I truly believe the club would have kept playing Koby had he wanted to continue his footy career as Paddy clearly does.
While you are entitled to you opinion, I believe that you are 100% wrong. Your stated views do not seem to accord at all with what he said last year on retiring or in interviews afterwards. Certainly I cannot recall anything where he stated or implied that the club was trying to get him to play on. Indeed once he as he said came clean about what he was suffering from with the Club's Doctors his career finished soon afterwards.
Koby Steven himself has said that last year after retiring " The last few years has changed so much"
Now you are misconstruing what I said. Koby made his own decision that is a given. Do not disagree with that for one second. What I am saying is that if Koby had the same attitude as Paddy ie wanted to keep playing despite numerous concussions, the club would have allowed him to keep playing as they have done with Paddy.
Just to make it clear. Koby made his own decision to retire and the club supported that decision, as the club would have supported Koby's decision to continue playing. That is my point. It is left to the player to decide his own future even though that decision may not be in his best interests. Thankfully Koby made the right call to pull the pin. Just wish Paddy would do the same for his own health and safety.
shanegrambeau wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:53pm
1) Why are previously concussed six times more likely to be hit again?
Source: https://www.aans.org/Patients/Neurosurg ... Concussion
According to the University of Pittsburgh's Brain Trauma Research Center, more than 300,000 sports-related concussions occur annually in the U.S., and the likelihood of suffering a concussion while playing a contact sport is estimated to be as high as 19 percent per year of play. More than 62,000 concussions are sustained each year in high school contact sports and, among college football players, 34 percent have had one concussion and 20 percent have endured multiple concussions. Estimates show that between four and 20 percent of college and high school football players will sustain a brain injury over the course of one season. The risk of concussion in football is three to six times higher in players who have had a previous concussion.
As Koby Stevens point out last year one in the video link I posted earlier one needs to be very careful of using the US data as in grid iron they are constantly head butting each other from a very young ages.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Mon 18 Mar 2019 6:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
Just to make it clear. Koby made his own decision to retire and the club supported that decision, as the club would have supported Koby's decision to continue playing. That is my point. It is left to the player to decide his own future even though that decision may not be in his best interests. Thankfully Koby made the right call to pull the pin. Just wish Paddy would do the same for his own health and safety.
This is where we disagree. My belief is that when a player reaches a certain stage that they would not let him take the field. You state that it always the players call and I disagree.
They discuss it with him and he retires. You call this "his choice", but in reality there is no choice. If the player persisted it would not be a "retirement," but the player would not play again.
It is just the club dealing with a player in a respectful manner and especially when they know that the player would probably want to play on.
Reportedly this may well be the case with Paddy at present. (This seems to be what various ITK's are inferring).
My speculation would be that Paddy may well be adamant that he wants to play on, and if so the club is giving him a longer period to adjust to it by delaying decision day under the guise of an extended review. He may well be hoping fora miracle. I do not begrudgePaddy wanting one last review if this is the case. It must be devastating for a young player to have his career prematurely end this way.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
damienc wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:37pm
Just to make it clear. Koby made his own decision to retire and the club supported that decision, as the club would have supported Koby's decision to continue playing.
Based upon the several video interviews that Koby made at the time where Koby discussed they matter, including his symptoms, I do not agree at all that the club would have allowed Koby to keep playing.
If you have some link, or knowledge, on the club actually being willing to have players play on despite medical advice that they are no longer fit to play then please share this.
Given our CEO is a lawyer I would be amazed if it was so.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
damienc wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:37pm
Just to make it clear. Koby made his own decision to retire and the club supported that decision, as the club would have supported Koby's decision to continue playing.
Based upon the several video interviews that Koby made at the time where Koby discussed they matter, including his symptoms, I do not agree at all that the club would have allowed Koby to keep playing.
If you have some link, or knowledge, on the club actually being willing to have players play on despite medical advice that they are no longer fit to play then please share this.
Given our CEO is a lawyer I would be amazed if it was so.
Yeah, the severest cases of concussion are really something else. If I remember correctly, Koby had significant memory issues, and it affects your mood and general lethargy immensely.
Junktime did an interview with former Pies and Brisbane player Jack Frost who retired due to concussion and the way he described it was horrible - being essentially unable or unwilling to get out of bed or the house for months at a time.
Take a quick look at the CEO's previous employment , then tell me that he would have played Koby.
"Matt Finnis
Director and Chief Executive Officer
Matt was appointed Chief Executive Officer of the St Kilda Football Club in April 2014 after previously holding the position of Chief Executive Officer at the AFL Players’ Association from September 2009. During his time at the PA Matt drove an agenda which resulted in the agreement to introduce free agency to the AFL to secure recognition for the significant part AFL footballers play in the phenomenal and growing success of the code. He also represented player interests in a range of issues, including commercial rights and individual grievances, and chaired the AFLPA Agent Accreditation Board.
Prior to joining the PA Matt worked as a commercial lawyer advising numerous sporting organisations, businesses, athletes and government.
damienc wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:37pm
Just to make it clear. Koby made his own decision to retire and the club supported that decision, as the club would have supported Koby's decision to continue playing.
Based upon the several video interviews that Koby made at the time where Koby discussed they matter, including his symptoms, I do not agree at all that the club would have allowed Koby to keep playing.
If you have some link, or knowledge, on the club actually being willing to have players play on despite medical advice that they are no longer fit to play then please share this.
Given our CEO is a lawyer I would be amazed if it was so.
Finally, we agree on something. It is devastating for poor Paddy especially when he was starting to show a bit of form. I truly feel for him. Not being able to play the game you love is heartbreaking.
I am pretty much done with arguing this . Paddy MCartin is the poster boy for a club willing to select a player who should have retired long ago. Sti Kilda owed him a duty of care and they have been woefully inadequate in supplying that care in my view. Eight concussions speaks for itself. He should have retired four concussions ago.
Last edited by damienc on Mon 18 Mar 2019 6:26pm, edited 2 times in total.
shrodes wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 6:11pm
Yeah, the severest cases of concussion are really something else.
Yes they are.
In my wife's case for a number of weeks if I walked her down the corridor she could not remember the way back. Anything that happened more than a few minutes earlier would not be remembered. It was a fearful time for her.
For over a week if she was asked some standard simple questions such as what year it was she would not know. If she indicated a year it was a random date going from early 1900's to next late this century.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
damienc wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:37pm
Just to make it clear. Koby made his own decision to retire and the club supported that decision, as the club would have supported Koby's decision to continue playing.
Based upon the several video interviews that Koby made at the time where Koby discussed they matter, including his symptoms, I do not agree at all that the club would have allowed Koby to keep playing.
If you have some link, or knowledge, on the club actually being willing to have players play on despite medical advice that they are no longer fit to play then please share this.
Given our CEO is a lawyer I would be amazed if it was so.
Yeah, the severest cases of concussion are really something else. If I remember correctly, Koby had significant memory issues, and it affects your mood and general lethargy immensely.
Junktime did an interview with former Pies and Brisbane player Jack Frost who retired due to concussion and the way he described it was horrible - being essentially unable or unwilling to get out of bed or the house for months at a time.
There's no way any club at this level (or even lower levels, surely) would allow a player with these kinds of symptoms to continue.
After Nick Riewoldt obtained a serious concussion against Port (I think it was) he had to learn once again the passing of his sister. Absolutely heart breaking.
BackFromUSA wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 8:01am
I never said that the club insists he retires. I have said that if he decides to continue that they treat him like any injured player and not select him.
The bit I was talking about was Paddy’s refusal to retire. And what might flow from that. The club will have to take a position of some kind. Either insist or not select him or try to persuade him to change his mind. Whatever happens it is likely to end in legal action in my view.
If he won’t retire then the club needs to declare him as injored and not select him on the same basis as any injured player in that he is not fit to play. That removes any restraint of trade culpability. We will have to pay his contract either way.
AwayInUSA no longer ... have based myself back in Melbourne for a decade of Saintsational Success (with regular trips back to the USA)
damienc wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:37pm
Just to make it clear. Koby made his own decision to retire and the club supported that decision, as the club would have supported Koby's decision to continue playing.
Based upon the several video interviews that Koby made at the time where Koby discussed they matter, including his symptoms, I do not agree at all that the club would have allowed Koby to keep playing.
If you have some link, or knowledge, on the club actually being willing to have players play on despite medical advice that they are no longer fit to play then please share this.
Given our CEO is a lawyer I would be amazed if it was so.
Yeah, the severest cases of concussion are really something else. If I remember correctly, Koby had significant memory issues, and it affects your mood and general lethargy immensely.
Junktime did an interview with former Pies and Brisbane player Jack Frost who retired due to concussion and the way he described it was horrible - being essentially unable or unwilling to get out of bed or the house for months at a time.
There's no way any club at this level (or even lower levels, surely) would allow a player with these kinds of symptoms to continue.
I don't know if Paddy does or does not have the above issues (being essentially unable or unwilling to get out of bed or the house for months at a time / significant memory issues, and it affects your mood and general lethargy immensely, etc). If he does then he should retire straight away however, if he doesn't and feels okay after a certain amount of time, then it would still be up to him and his adviser to keep playing. How can you stop him playing once he is fit to play?
As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
BackFromUSA wrote: ↑Mon 18 Mar 2019 8:01am
I never said that the club insists he retires. I have said that if he decides to continue that they treat him like any injured player and not select him.
The bit I was talking about was Paddy’s refusal to retire. And what might flow from that. The club will have to take a position of some kind. Either insist or not select him or try to persuade him to change his mind. Whatever happens it is likely to end in legal action in my view.
If he won’t retire then the club needs to declare him as injored and not select him on the same basis as any injured player in that he is not fit to play. That removes any restraint of trade culpability. We will have to pay his contract either way.
Paddy is contracted until the end of next year. It’s quite conceivable the club tell him he won’t be selected for the tenure of his current contract & will not offer him an extension. Then the onus is on Paddy to either offer his retirement or request a trade to a club willing to taking on accountability for his long term health, which is unlikely. It’s sounds tough on Paddy however it’s for his own good.
Very sad, but it looks as though this really is the end now.
I don't expect him to play for us again. Might as well prepare for the worst.
Personally, he seems like such a nice and bright young man who still has time to do something with the rest of his working life. Hope beyond hope he suffers no problems down the track.
Our club would have still played Koby had he not pulled the pin in my view.
What basis is there for that statement?
I think it was clear from from what happened at the time that the medical process that the club had Koby go through determined that Koby had to retire.
Probably the Saints and club would have wished it to not be so. But it was so.
It would seem to be an outlandish call that the club would overule the medicos to have had Koby play on.
Do you have some knowledge for your claim, or is this alfoil hat time?
If you don’t mind me saying so you appear to be blinded by the obvious.
The club kept playing McCartin after 7 concussions.
I truly believe the club would have kept playing Koby had he wanted to continue his footy career as Paddy clearly does.
We are not the only club to have done this. It has to change.
The club plays players when the medicos say it is safe. You are suggesting this is wrong. Good luck changing the medial profession.
Our club would have still played Koby had he not pulled the pin in my view.
What basis is there for that statement?
I think it was clear from from what happened at the time that the medical process that the club had Koby go through determined that Koby had to retire.
Probably the Saints and club would have wished it to not be so. But it was so.
It would seem to be an outlandish call that the club would overule the medicos to have had Koby play on.
Do you have some knowledge for your claim, or is this alfoil hat time?
If you don’t mind me saying so you appear to be blinded by the obvious.
The club kept playing McCartin after 7 concussions.
I truly believe the club would have kept playing Koby had he wanted to continue his footy career as Paddy clearly does.
We are not the only club to have done this. It has to change.
The club plays players when the medicos say it is safe. You are suggesting this is wrong. Good luck changing the medial profession.
Well good luck if you can find a medical doctor who thinks it’s a good idea to keep playing Paddy McCartin after 7 or 8 concussions.
