Time To Take Concussion Seriously

[damienc]

I never said that the club insists he retires. I have said that if he decides to continue that they treat him like any injured player and not select him.

The bit I was talking about was Paddy’s refusal to retire. And what might flow from that. The club will have to take a position of some kind. Either insist or not select him or try to persuade him to change his mind. Whatever happens it is likely to end in legal action in my view.

If he won’t retire then the club needs to declare him as injored and not select him on the same basis as any injured player in that he is not fit to play. That removes any restraint of trade culpability. We will have to pay his contract either way.

Yep. If Paddy agrees or accepts what you are saying the club should do. He might not. Paddy may want to fight this. I truly hope he doesn’t. In my view the club’s biggest concern should be if a lawyer gets up in court and asks Why did the St Kilda football club keep playing Paddy McCartin after multiple concussions knowing there was a risk to his long term health? I don’t think the club has an answer to that question.

[MC Gusto]

There’s a lot of speculation being reported as fact in this thread.

I’m interested in what changed for Brayshaw. He was worse off than paddy not long ago. Obviously took time off, added the helmet etc but hasn’t had a concussion for some time now. Is it just luck or something else?

[samoht]

There’s a lot of speculation being reported as fact in this thread.

I’m interested in what changed for Brayshaw. He was worse off than paddy not long ago. Obviously took time off, added the helmet etc but hasn’t had a concussion for some time now. Is it just luck or something else?

Paddy plays as a key marking forward, and is regularly competing in 2-4 marking contests each game against 3 or 4 players looking to also mark or spoil the ball. Close to half his concussions probably came from friendly fire - Newnes, Membrey and Long come to mind. All eyes are on the ball - it's mayhem, and you don't even consider your team mate.
Brayshaw finds space - he doesn't get crunched in similar marking contests, and maybe has learnt to better protect himself?
That's why I posed the question - "how many times has Paddy been concussed playing outside the F50?" . Paddy has regular stints where he plays a big utility type role, between the wing and half forward, and I can't recall if he's ever been concussed in this role (outside the F50).
Maybe a permanent tall linking-forward role would suit him .. a similar role to Adelaide's Tom Lynch, say?
Maybe this is the change that Paddy needs?
Just a thought.

[DJ Higgins]

There’s a lot of speculation being reported as fact in this thread.

I’m interested in what changed for Brayshaw. He was worse off than paddy not long ago. Obviously took time off, added the helmet etc but hasn’t had a concussion for some time now. Is it just luck or something else?

Luck always plays a part but I think he has learnt not to put you head in certain place when going for the ball. Paddy has no spacial awareness of those around him and gets himself in stupid positions. He won't make it as a key forward IMO. Happy to argue but proof is in the pudding and so far it has been a bit underwhelming

[samoht]

There’s a lot of speculation being reported as fact in this thread.

I’m interested in what changed for Brayshaw. He was worse off than paddy not long ago. Obviously took time off, added the helmet etc but hasn’t had a concussion for some time now. Is it just luck or something else?

Luck always plays a part but I think he has learnt not to put you head in certain place when going for the ball. Paddy has no spacial awareness of those around him and gets himself in stupid positions. He won't make it as a key forward IMO. Happy to argue but proof is in the pudding and so far it has been a bit underwhelming

It could be argued that Long, Membrey and Newnes didn’t have the “spatial awareness” when they crunched and collected Paddy, Maybe they should have given him the space to mark or protected this space for him?
Paddy is prone . whichever way we look at it, and might be better suited outside the F50?

[mad saint guy]

The second time he was concussed by a glancing blow that wouldn't affect any other player in the AFL is when he should have been told to retire. He has most likely already done irreparable damage to his brain which will cause serious issues for the rest of his life.

It's incredibly sad but for his own well being he needs to retire now. Imagine if he cops a rampaging Steven May shoulder charge to the head when running back with the flight of the ball. A tap from Jimmy Webster's stomach knocked him out

[mad saint guy]

It could be argued that Long, Membrey and Newnes didn’t have the “spatial awareness” when they crunched and collected Paddy, Maybe they should have given him the space to mark or protected this space for him?
Paddy is prone . whichever way we look at it, and might be better suited outside the F50?

Or maybe that kind of contact is just a part of the game and Paddy is the only player in the league susceptible enough to concussion to be knocked out by it.

[samoht]

It could be argued that Long, Membrey and Newnes didn’t have the “spatial awareness” when they crunched and collected Paddy, Maybe they should have given him the space to mark or protected this space for him?
Paddy is prone . whichever way we look at it, and might be better suited outside the F50?

Or maybe that kind of contact is just a part of the game and Paddy is the only player in the league susceptible enough to concussion to be knocked out by it.

Of course. As he has become progressively more prone to concussion, maybe we’re past the point of looking for alternative solutions ... it may be too late for that, now.
I just find it interesting that all the concussions - as far as I know - may have occurrred inside the F 50.

[mad saint guy]

It could be argued that Long, Membrey and Newnes didn’t have the “spatial awareness” when they crunched and collected Paddy, Maybe they should have given him the space to mark or protected this space for him?
Paddy is prone . whichever way we look at it, and might be better suited outside the F50?

Or maybe that kind of contact is just a part of the game and Paddy is the only player in the league susceptible enough to concussion to be knocked out by it.

Of course. As he has become progressively more prone to concussion, maybe we’re past the point of looking for alternative solutions ... it may be too late for that, now.
I just find it interesting that all the concussions - as far as I know - may have occurrred inside the F 50.

I'd say the reason for that is because he's mostly been playing inside the forward 50. Footy is a contact sport and Paddy gets knocked out from very light contact

[samoht]

see next post

[samoht]

It could be argued that Long, Membrey and Newnes didn’t have the “spatial awareness” when they crunched and collected Paddy, Maybe they should have given him the space to mark or protected this space for him?
Paddy is prone . whichever way we look at it, and might be better suited outside the F50?

Or maybe that kind of contact is just a part of the game and Paddy is the only player in the league susceptible enough to concussion to be knocked out by it.

Of course. As he has become progressively more prone to concussion, maybe we’re past the point of looking for alternative solutions ... it may be too late for that, now.
I just find it interesting that all the concussions - as far as I know - may have occurrred inside the F 50.

I'd say the reason for that is because he's mostly been playing inside the forward 50. Footy is a contact sport and Paddy gets knocked out from very light contact

I’d like to see a breakdown of how many minutes and contests he’s been involved in inside the F50 vs the minutes that he’s spent outside the F50 and the contests he’s been involved in there - that’s the only way to examine this.
It might only be an academic exercise.... it might be too late to do anything about it now.

[DJ Higgins]

It could be argued that Long, Membrey and Newnes didn’t have the “spatial awareness” when they crunched and collected Paddy, Maybe they should have given him the space to mark or protected this space for him?
Paddy is prone . whichever way we look at it, and might be better suited outside the F50?

Not much of an argument really. 3 players should look out for one? How will that stop the opposition bumping Paddy. Also the other guys are more aware of their surroundings hence they aren't fighting concussion.
I have been saying try him as a full back for a while now as let's be real if king comes good he won't get a look in based on his form

[shrodes]

Paddy undergoing more tests this week
https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-03-18/ ... sion-scare

[samoht]

I think Paddy has demonstrated that he’s good at reading the play and filling space ... outside F50, around half forward/ wing ... and if we also know that he doesn’t get concussed or is much less likely to get concussed playing in this area, as a tall linking/marking forward - i.e., if the data/evidence indeed supports that, then that might be the spot and role for him?

FB might be just as risky as playing in the F 50?

[shanegrambeau]

1) Why are previously concussed six times more likely to be hit again?

Source: https://www.aans.org/Patients/Neurosurg ... Concussion
. The risk of concussion in football is three to six times higher in players who have had a previous concussion.

one needs to be very careful of using the US data as in grid iron they are constantly head butting each other from a very young ages.

Yeah, gridiron differences aside, it still doesn't explain why previously concussed people are MORE LIKELY to be reconcussed. Specifically,

a) is it t the experience of being concussed that makes them more vulnerable - some cognitive re-wiring that robs them of something or;
b) is it just that they are born (DNA) more prone than the average person to get knocked out so more minutes means more knock outs
c) do other players subconsciously realize that they are vulnerable and in those 1% centers, unknowlingly take advantage?

If you fall off your bike when learning to ride, are you more likely to fall off again?

[Saintmatt]

There’s a lot of speculation being reported as fact in this thread.

I’m interested in what changed for Brayshaw. He was worse off than paddy not long ago. Obviously took time off, added the helmet etc but hasn’t had a concussion for some time now. Is it just luck or something else?

Brayshaw - like every concussion issue - was different to Paddy. He'd suffered fewer concussions yet, a couple of those were quite heavy/serious. Paddy on the other hand, is up to his 8th concussion and now has a seriously low tolerance to any kind of knock to the head region.

In some ways - Brayshaw was like any many 80's/90's on-ballers who got concussed but were able to play on without long term damage whereas Paddy now has a physical disposition to being knocked on the head in that it's lights-out instantly when it does. Very much the boxer who wasn't born with, but develops a 'glass jaw' after repeated hits.

To listen to Harvs and Nathan Burke talk in his HoF Legend speech about the concussions he suffered makes me wonder whether he'd have played 100 games let alone 300 in the modern era with all the testing players must go through.

[Sanctorum]

The following link is to an article published in last weekend's "Good Weekend" magazine that comes with The Age, it makes quite interesting reading in that medical experts are not all aligned in the consequences of concussion in sport:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/the-co ... 513ay.html

I think it is really difficult to generalise on the impact of concussions on individual players, for example, Jonathon Brown has said on several occasions that he believes his many concussions have not caused any problems to his physical and mental health, and maybe time will tell if he is right. Nick Riewoldt from memory has had some issues following his many concussions, but decided that he was OK to keep playing. Koby Stevens and others apparently decided otherwise, and that's fine. As for Paddy, I am of the view that he is quite entitled to decide for himself whether or not he plays on, I would imagine that if the doctors advise him that the risks are too great then he'll do the sensible thing and retire - if he considers the risks are minimal then he will probably keep playing.

[Saintmatt]

There’s a lot of speculation being reported as fact in this thread.

I’m interested in what changed for Brayshaw. He was worse off than paddy not long ago. Obviously took time off, added the helmet etc but hasn’t had a concussion for some time now. Is it just luck or something else?

Paddy plays as a key marking forward, and is regularly competing in 2-4 marking contests each game against 3 or 4 players looking to also mark or spoil the ball. Close to half his concussions probably came from friendly fire - Newnes, Membrey and Long come to mind. All eyes are on the ball - it's mayhem, and you don't even consider your team mate.
Brayshaw finds space - he doesn't get crunched in similar marking contests, and maybe has learnt to better protect himself?
That's why I posed the question - "how many times has Paddy been concussed playing outside the F50?" . Paddy has regular stints where he plays a big utility type role, between the wing and half forward, and I can't recall if he's ever been concussed in this role (outside the F50).
Maybe a permanent tall linking-forward role would suit him .. a similar role to Adelaide's Tom Lynch, say?
Maybe this is the change that Paddy needs?
Just a thought.

Good questions posed. Brayshaw is an inside bull however. Yes, he has a tank and can spread but in him and Oliver - the Dees have the two best inside mids going around. Brayshaw regularly puts his head where it's not healthy - it's in his DNA - it's what he does. You could make an argument that's it's a lot of luck that's meant he hasn't had more concussions. Also remember that Brayshaw's worst - and last - concussion ... has a freak accident not related to contact or endeavor or field position (i.e. he had a footy kicked into his head in the VFL).

As for Paddy playing like Tom Lynch That's a nice idea but that role requires the tank of an elite midfielder. Paddy can take a mark but an endurance beast he is not. Nor is unlikely to ever be.

Sadly - I suspect it's all moot now. Paddy is cooked - either now or soon enough when he inevitable cops his next (avoidable) concussion.

[saintspremiers]

There’s a lot of speculation being reported as fact in this thread.

I’m interested in what changed for Brayshaw. He was worse off than paddy not long ago. Obviously took time off, added the helmet etc but hasn’t had a concussion for some time now. Is it just luck or something else?

Brayshaw - like every concussion issue - was different to Paddy. He'd suffered fewer concussions yet, a couple of those were quite heavy/serious. Paddy on the other hand, is up to his 8th concussion and now has a seriously low tolerance to any kind of knock to the head region.

In some ways - Brayshaw was like any many 80's/90's on-ballers who got concussed but were able to play on without long term damage whereas Paddy now has a physical disposition to being knocked on the head in that it's lights-out instantly when it does. Very much the boxer who wasn't born with, but develops a 'glass jaw' after repeated hits.

To listen to Harvs and Nathan Burke talk in his HoF Legend speech about the concussions he suffered makes me wonder whether he'd have played 100 games let alone 300 in the modern era with all the testing players must go through.

Paddy has type 1 diabetes and Angus doesn’t.

That’s a HUGE and relevant difference when talking holistic health and well-being issues

[Myron Gaines]

I wonder if the diabetes had anything to do with the lead up to the latest knock Paddy suffered? Paddy appeared punch drunk prior to the incident. He totally misjudged a mark in the goal square. He fumbled two marks against Caleb Daniels where he was awarded a free kick each time. The act of going back with the flight that left him concussed appeared extremely clumbsey almost like he wasn’t thinking straight. So was he in a state of drowsiness due to low blood sugars? A question for the doctors.

[CQ SAINT]

It could be argued that Long, Membrey and Newnes didn’t have the “spatial awareness” when they crunched and collected Paddy, Maybe they should have given him the space to mark or protected this space for him?
Paddy is prone . whichever way we look at it, and might be better suited outside the F50?

Or maybe that kind of contact is just a part of the game and Paddy is the only player in the league susceptible enough to concussion to be knocked out by it.

Of course. As he has become progressively more prone to concussion, maybe we’re past the point of looking for alternative solutions ... it may be too late for that, now.
I just find it interesting that all the concussions - as far as I know - may have occurrred inside the F 50.

I'd say the reason for that is because he's mostly been playing inside the forward 50. Footy is a contact sport and Paddy gets knocked out from very light contact

I’d like to see a breakdown of how many minutes and contests he’s been involved in inside the F50 vs the minutes that he’s spent outside the F50 and the contests he’s been involved in there - that’s the only way to examine this.
It might only be an academic exercise.... it might be too late to do anything about it now.

In the latest incident he, Membrey and Bruce all attacked a kick out from deep defence. Bruce took the mark on the half back flank.
Paddy and Membrey spread and Paddy retreated to high half forward. His vague attempt at a lead was ignored and he followed the ball backwards, in a completely uncoordinated attempt to be a part of the play. It wasnt good.
He was nowhere near the forward 50 when he began his run. If he had of been it would never have happened.
No matter how we cook it, he seems highly susceptible to concussion. There is a medical rationale relating to diabetes that supports this. Everybody will come to accept this. Hopefully, before he does irreparable damage to his brain and the development of our forward structures and our player development.

[saynta]

Surprisingly, Gary Lyon who has very close family connections to Paddy stated that hopefully Paddy will be back playing in a couple of weeks.

Both Brown and he also stated that there was a lot of misinformed hysteria over concussion in general and Paddy in particular

[Myron Gaines]

“Misinformed hysteria over concussions in general”

Wow. Please cease listening to Lyon & Brown & conduct your own research. That statement couldn’t be further from the truth.

[damienc]

Surprisingly, Gary Lyon who has very close family connections to Paddy stated that hopefully Paddy will be back playing in a couple of weeks.

Both Brown and he also stated that there was a lot of misinformed hysteria over concussion in general and Paddy in particular

Didn’t realise they both had medical qualifications as well. Wow.

[Myron Gaines]

Surprisingly, Gary Lyon who has very close family connections to Paddy stated that hopefully Paddy will be back playing in a couple of weeks.

Both Brown and he also stated that there was a lot of misinformed hysteria over concussion in general and Paddy in particular

Didn’t realise they both had medical qualifications as well. Wow.

An extremely dangerous opinion to project onto others. I hope paddy isn’t listening to a word coming from Lyon’s mouth.