What about the Ruck?

[degruch]

Not knocking Marshall but surely a similar differential against a quality midfield won’t hold up

Brayshaw, Viney, Oliver, Jones...no slouches there though. We can set the midfield up to negate or attach and exploit our advantage. It's not the first time this year Marshall has lost the ruck stats yet we've won in the centre.

[skeptic]

Another example of GT thinking ahead of its time?

[saintsRrising]

There are losing rucks and then there are losing rucks.

If you watch how Marshall went about it, he was often just looking to negate his opponents to prevent them from hang a good tap -out.

Result was yes that the Dee's easily won the HOs, but the Dees ruckmen were not actually tapping the ball to their mids advantage.

The Dees actually have a very good midfield and their mids were their better players yesterday.


With Marshall you know:
- That he is going to COMPETE and try his heart out each week
- That he is mobile and quick. So he is part of the reason why we often outnumber our opponents around the ground
- He has played very few games as a No 1 ruck at AFL level, and so he is just going to grow and grow in what he delivers
- That he is going to have games where he will rip the opposition apart with his marking and link play, and that he will bob up with braces of goals every so often

[samoht]

Sure there may be games where we’ll lose the clearance count, but having a relieving ruckman like Acres - and choosing Acres over a second ruckman/plodder- gives you an extra runner/midfielder which is always a positive .... and will probably more than counterbalance losing the clearance count on those occasions.

Also, having an extra midfielder like Acres means they will be there to clear the ball themselves... and also will be there to give our midfielders a chop out/keep them fresh.
So Acres is more than a relieving ruckman ... he’s also a relieving midfielder and extra clearance player.

All I see is positives!

We are missing some important players, and we need to keep thinking laterally and outside of the box.

[saintsRrising]

Another example of GT thinking ahead of its time?

Not sure why, Pup and the Ghost were two of many St Kilda rucks that did well around the ground well before GT arrived.

He also brought in Knoble,who was great at winning HOs, but whom was pretty useless around the ground.

Unfortunately GT could not handle the best ruckman he every had in Everritt. Indeed GT could not handle any of the "bad boys ". Players like Everitt, Hall, Guerra, Lawrence etc..

[twirlyhair]

We won the clearances.

Yeah this is the most important stat, rather than hitouts. You bring in another ruckman and you are then down a.midfielder. We can't afford to do that unless the ruckman we bring in is very very effective.

[The_President]

Not sure why people think we need to change anything.

RoMa’s played in 4 games, we’ve won the hitouts in one game and we actually lost that game.

Right now we’re quicker, fitter and more mobile compared to our rivals. Why bring in someone like Longer who will only slow us down?

[samoht]

RoMa contested the ruck 95% of the time ..Acres didn’t even relieve this time, but playing 1 pure ruckman (only) gave us an extra runner.
If RoMa tires, Acres, Bruce and Membrey - even Long (he actually went up against Gawn in a ruck contest) - can relieve him ... and contest say 10 of the contests between them, to give him a breather.

[skeptic]

So hypothetical...
If we lost the games to GC and Hawthorn, ppl still wouldn’t think this was an issue?

I feel like the wins are muddying up the fact that there could still be an issue here.
Gawn was close to best afield for Melbourne. Just because they’re midfield sucked on the day doesn’t change that

[saynta]

Long term there will be no problem Jake Carlisle will be Back and Max King a 202 Cm rolls Royce will be in our team.
Longer will be delisted and Pierce will be Back up. Acres can pinch hit like he has we don’t need a lumbering 2 nd Ruckman.

204cm. His brother is 202cm.

[Cairnsman]

RoMa and Blake are prototype midfielders who can pinch hit in the ruck designed specifically for the modern game and its new rules.

The old ruck debate is a dinosaur discussion.

[Scollop]

Ahh ....let's hope that old saying doesn't bite is on the backside

Uhhhm...A week is a long time in football

[tedtheodorelogan2018]

RoMa and Blake are prototype midfielders who can pinch hit in the ruck designed specifically for the modern game and its new rules.

The old ruck debate is a dinosaur discussion.

Agreed. Saints are clearly ahead of and equal with the comp in this regards. We have worked it out early.

[Crossy66]

RoMa and Blake are prototype midfielders who can pinch hit in the ruck designed specifically for the modern game and its new rules.

The old ruck debate is a dinosaur discussion.

Agreed. Saints are clearly ahead of and equal with the comp in this regards. We have worked it out early.

I'm still thinking we need to play another ruckman . Trouble is that the second option is Billy and he seems to be only just travelling at VFL level atm. Really needs to lift his KPI's. That said, I think Marshall's flexibility has been a major factor in our improvement. Coaches probably smarter than me!

[Toy Saint]

Back in the day we had Ruck-Rovers or followers, I remember Travis Payze. And we had blokes like Alan Morrow and Brian Mynott in the ruck, they would've only been about 6"2", but were strong and skilled with use of the body.

[Shaggy]

The debate continues...

Max Gawn - 20d, 9 kicks, 11 handballs, 4 marks, 2 tackles, 1 behind and 32 hit outs
Preuss - 15d, 10 kicks, 5 handballs, 3 marks, 2 tackles, 2 goals and 16 hit outs

Marshall - 13d, 5 kicks, 8 handballs, 2 marks, 2 tackles, 13 hit outs

Safe to say that Marshall was beaten today by 2 very seasoned rucks... not disgraced by any means because it was always an incredibly tall order (haha) for him.

I still think he needs help... this is the type of thing I’d like to protect him from a little. It appears that neither Longer or Pierce are getting to the standard we’d hope any time soon.

Do we ask the kid to ride it alone all season and then make getting a decent back up a priority or is one of the others worth a shot?

I just read your op properly.

IMO you are SO blinkered.

Marshall was beaten in the ruck but its called great experience. He is still young, physically immature and he will lose more. But he is a gun.

The mids stood up when Marshall was struggling IMO alot because Marshall has done the same back and they are well trained. We won the contested possessions and Melbourne were dominated in the forward line because they were way too big.

[Shaggy]

It appears that neither Longer or Pierce are getting to the standard we’d hope any time soon.

Great spin with Stonecold not being able to respond.

We won 3 games out of 4 last year when Longer rucked. He only played 5 games last year.

Longer has been our preferred ruck for the last 3 years. If you look at our win/loss ratio his presence makes a big difference. Go figure - players/mids respond to some-one who really puts his body on the line to help them.

No one thinks Longer is the next Natanui. But he makes our blokes stand tall. He is much cheaper than Hickey. Hickey cost us $600,000 a year and he only played half his games and he would never dominate and we would lose.

[Scollop]

It appears that neither Longer or Pierce are getting to the standard we’d hope any time soon.

Great spin with Stonecold not being able to respond.

We won 3 games out of 4 last year when Longer rucked. He only played 5 games last year.

Longer has been our preferred ruck for the last 3 years. If you look at our win/loss ratio his presence makes a big difference. Go figure - players/mids respond to some-one who really puts his body on the line to help them.

No one thinks Longer is the next Natanui. But he makes our blokes stand tall. He is much cheaper than Hickey. Hickey cost us $600,000 a year and he only played half his games and he would never dominate and we would lose.

Great spin regarding Longer.

If Longer is going cheap as you imply there could be a fair bit of demand, so I guess stoney would want us to extend Billy's contract before we lose him and before he is snapped up by the opposition.

Can't wait for an update by an itk on who might be chasing him

[Crossy66]

It appears that neither Longer or Pierce are getting to the standard we’d hope any time soon.

Great spin with Stonecold not being able to respond.

We won 3 games out of 4 last year when Longer rucked. He only played 5 games last year.

Longer has been our preferred ruck for the last 3 years. If you look at our win/loss ratio his presence makes a big difference. Go figure - players/mids respond to some-one who really puts his body on the line to help them.

No one thinks Longer is the next Natanui. But he makes our blokes stand tall. He is much cheaper than Hickey. Hickey cost us $600,000 a year and he only played half his games and he would never dominate and we would lose.

Great spin regarding Longer.

If Longer is going cheap as you imply there could be a fair bit of demand, so I guess stoney would want us to extend Billy's contract before we lose him and before he is snapped up by the opposition.

Can't wait for an update by an itk on who might be chasing him

I Still think we are a KPF short, which is a role Marshall can play well. Billy hasnt put his hand up at VFL level yet and when he does I think he will come back in as we will be a better team for his inclusion. All that said, we are more than getting away with playing, in effect two extra mids at the moment

[kosifantutti]

It appears that neither Longer or Pierce are getting to the standard we’d hope any time soon.

Great spin with Stonecold not being able to respond.

We won 3 games out of 4 last year when Longer rucked. He only played 5 games last year.

Longer has been our preferred ruck for the last 3 years. If you look at our win/loss ratio his presence makes a big difference. Go figure - players/mids respond to some-one who really puts his body on the line to help them.

No one thinks Longer is the next Natanui. But he makes our blokes stand tall. He is much cheaper than Hickey. Hickey cost us $600,000 a year and he only played half his games and he would never dominate and we would lose.

We won the Brisbane game in spite of Longer. Stefan Martin dominated. Billy had 1 mark and 1 tackle. Hitouts were 22-42. Six coach’s votes to Martin.

Billy didn’t play a game in 2016 so I’m not sure how he was the preferred ruck. That was also our best season since 2011 but somehow we play better with Billy?

I’d also like to know where Billy played last year when he wasn’t in the ruck? Small forward?

[Legendary]

One of the trends of 2019 so far is winning hitouts and losing games.

As someone wrote above, you have to look at the combined impact of Marshall and Acres against Gawn and Preuss.

We won the clearances and contested possession. The point of winning a hitout is to enable your midfielders to win a clearance - by that measure, Gawn and Preuss were totally ineffective. If the point of a ruckman is to enable the midfield then you're better off just enabling the midfield like we are doing.

At some point Marshall will get tired and he may need a rest and/or some help. But I'd be concerned about the impact on our game style if we played a second big guy who can't play another position.

[freely]

There's another element to this - and I'd be interested to hear what the ruck experts out there think. When you're playing a 'help out your mates', team-style of footy - which is what it looks like to me when I see Lonie on the half-back flank and players with the courage to leave their man and help out when needed - is there actually something to be said for having random players (e.g., Long on Saturday) pinch-hit in the ruck? Does it actually help build that camaraderie and sense that they're all in it together?

[darylcowie]

I still think Longer has a role to play vs the monster rucks.

Particularly if we make the finals.

He is an elite tap ruckman who could play a cameo role in big games, ala Clark Keating.

If he splits the ruck duties 50/50 with Marshall then we maximise his strengths (tap work) and minimise his weaknesses (spread and endurance) and vice-versa for Marshall who can rest at full-forward.

This duo will create headaches for opposition ruck duos in big games, due to their points of difference.

[older saint]

Malthouse wrote a good article this weekend about ruckmen and their influence, One area where Marshall leads the league is metres gained, Not just hit outs but being a link player, moving the ball. he is quality below the knees for his size. Yes we got beat on hit outs but the mids were able to negate the impact. Those who say it wont work against a quality midfield i would argue, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw is the equal of any starting 3 in the comp at clearance work.

We cant go back to Longer , yes win hits outs but 5 possessions and 1 mark per game means we play 17v 18.

Bruce to help out at Centre bounces and then push forward with Acres then working around the ground, and Brown if required down back.

[takeaway]

I think it is only a matter of time before Longer comes in, particularly if we have a couple of losses, or injuries. Funny, some wins, and people think Marshall is a gun - he might get there, but long way to go yet imo. The only issue with Billy coming in is the change in structure and tactics for the mids - they will have to mostly rove to a winning ruck, rather than the opposition ruck or a random hit to the ground.

Still, while we are winning I don't think they will change much with the ruck set up.