So what was it with Brandon White?

[saintspremiers]

Geez, so many players are duds, White is just another

[Secret Kiel]

Brandon White came and left a good VFL standard player. He never really came on, played from within his natural talents and from all appearances and repute, never really grasped the notion of professionalism. In his first couple of preseasons he went backwards in fitness and application, it was only his potential that kept him there as long as he was. Shame really.

Ironically Richo become a lightening rod for misguided frustration that was somehow sparking from Brandon White and his inability to grab his opportunity. Weirdly enough the sparks seem to grow larger and fire more rapidly as the frustration with Richo and his coaching grew. And it grew to the point that it then become internet myth that not only was Richo to blame for not turning Brandon into a star, but somehow Brandon was also the answer to our teams fortunes turning around.

I think it’s more about who was played instead.
Weller got a lot of chances in 2017 despite mediocre form and a few of White’s performances surpassed that. He certainly showed more in his one game forward injured than Weller did over a lot of his significantly greater opportunities

Same deal with Newnes at times in the middle.

I think the argument has changed with the frustration of not playing White met with the response to that frustration.

As one of the bigger critics of how this all played out... the criticism is not that White was a genuine star that should have played unconditionally but rather that based on exposed form, he deserved more opportunity.

Personally, I tend to lean to the BM way of thinking that White pbly didn’t work hard enough and that’s why he didn’t get more chances. On exposed form however, he showed promise... surely even the harshest critic has to grant him that.

Therefore, rather than play ppl that aren’t producing, it simply makes more sense granted him more opportunity when form warranted with the hope that that maybe that could lead to a change in attitude

So was it just a simple case of players like Weller and Newnes getting games just because there wasn't anybody in the VFL capable of pushing them out during a time in our rebuild when the cupboard was very very bare. And absolutely agree there were players running around in the Sandy side during this time that showed promise but just couldn't deliver on what was required to push somebody like Weller or Newnes out of the seniors.

The fact Weller, White and more than likely Newnes are no longer on the list, suggests we had players in the seniors and reserves that frustrated the coaches as much as anyone else. During Richo's coaching tenure he just didn't have the resources and luxury of dropping or promoting players, essentially we had players in the VFL and AFL sides that weren't AFL standard and this was just symptomatic of a rebuilding team. As we know it takes time to get a critical mass of players who can constantly push for the best 22 and I suppose it's why we have the term bottom 6 within the best 22, because even the top 4 ladder clubs will always find it hard to get the desired AFL quality in every position each week let alone the bottom 4 ladder teams. It's really hard to do when there are only 756 players each year on the AFL register from a small population with a relatively low talent pool, the new franchise clubs made it even harder and have been diluting that pool even further over the years. Let's just say Ratts will be in a stronger position at the selection table in 2020 than Richo ever was so hopefully we see more competition for spots.

[Joffa Burns]

I don’t think anyone would doubt White had the natural athletic tools to be a decent AFL player.

Good speed, good kick good hands, but something was lacking that only the inner sanctum would understand.

Maybe he gets a lifeline somewhere and turns it around, I hope so for the boy.

There could be a multitude of combinations of reasons but I think it unfair to speculate.

On Saintsational we always have the messiah in the twos who is not getting a game, a couple of years ago it was Rice who has proven he is not AFL standard, this year it was White now delisted.

The club does get it wrong on players, don’t forget Marshall did not start the year in the senior team and baring injury and form was our 3rd in line ruck.

[skeptic]

Brandon White came and left a good VFL standard player. He never really came on, played from within his natural talents and from all appearances and repute, never really grasped the notion of professionalism. In his first couple of preseasons he went backwards in fitness and application, it was only his potential that kept him there as long as he was. Shame really.

Ironically Richo become a lightening rod for misguided frustration that was somehow sparking from Brandon White and his inability to grab his opportunity. Weirdly enough the sparks seem to grow larger and fire more rapidly as the frustration with Richo and his coaching grew. And it grew to the point that it then become internet myth that not only was Richo to blame for not turning Brandon into a star, but somehow Brandon was also the answer to our teams fortunes turning around.

I think it’s more about who was played instead.
Weller got a lot of chances in 2017 despite mediocre form and a few of White’s performances surpassed that. He certainly showed more in his one game forward injured than Weller did over a lot of his significantly greater opportunities

Same deal with Newnes at times in the middle.

I think the argument has changed with the frustration of not playing White met with the response to that frustration.

As one of the bigger critics of how this all played out... the criticism is not that White was a genuine star that should have played unconditionally but rather that based on exposed form, he deserved more opportunity.

Personally, I tend to lean to the BM way of thinking that White pbly didn’t work hard enough and that’s why he didn’t get more chances. On exposed form however, he showed promise... surely even the harshest critic has to grant him that.

Therefore, rather than play ppl that aren’t producing, it simply makes more sense granted him more opportunity when form warranted with the hope that that maybe that could lead to a change in attitude

So was it just a simple case of players like Weller and Newnes getting games just because there wasn't anybody in the VFL capable of pushing them out during a time in our rebuild when the cupboard was very very bare. And absolutely agree there were players running around in the Sandy side during this time that showed promise but just couldn't deliver on what was required to push somebody like Weller or Newnes out of the seniors.

The fact Weller, White and more than likely Newnes are no longer on the list, suggests we had players in the seniors and reserves that frustrated the coaches as much as anyone else. During Richo's coaching tenure he just didn't have the resources and luxury of dropping or promoting players, essentially we had players in the VFL and AFL sides that weren't AFL standard and this was just symptomatic of a rebuilding team. As we know it takes time to get a critical mass of players who can constantly push for the best 22 and I suppose it's why we have the term bottom 6 within the best 22, because even the top 4 ladder clubs will always find it hard to get the desired AFL quality in every position each week let alone the bottom 4 ladder teams. It's really hard to do when there are only 756 players each year on the AFL register from a small population with a relatively low talent pool, the new franchise clubs made it even harder and have been diluting that pool even further over the years. Let's just say Ratts will be in a stronger position at the selection table in 2020 than Richo ever was so hopefully we see more competition for spots.

No disrespect intended but I simply reject the notion that we had no one capable of pushing them out.

Much like apparently Pierce couldn’t push Hickey or Longer out, my impression is that we had options and that the coaching style/preference was conservative.

Do you prefer the same consistent mediocre performance of a Hickey/Longer or do you prefer to grant opportunity to guys like Pierce and Marshall in the hope that you develop them more.
For me, within balance, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving opportunity and trying to develop players every once in a while as opposed to consistently doing what you know isn’t working or getting better.

It’s the Jack Lonie argument all over again. He hasn’t looked good at times but developed over his repeated opportunities. Particular players didn’t seem to be afforded that

[freely]

Geez, so many players are duds, White is just another

I guess players don't need to be great at everything but they do need to be great at something. And then they need the luck to find themselves under a coach with the vision to put all the pieces together.

[Secret Kiel]

Brandon White came and left a good VFL standard player. He never really came on, played from within his natural talents and from all appearances and repute, never really grasped the notion of professionalism. In his first couple of preseasons he went backwards in fitness and application, it was only his potential that kept him there as long as he was. Shame really.

Ironically Richo become a lightening rod for misguided frustration that was somehow sparking from Brandon White and his inability to grab his opportunity. Weirdly enough the sparks seem to grow larger and fire more rapidly as the frustration with Richo and his coaching grew. And it grew to the point that it then become internet myth that not only was Richo to blame for not turning Brandon into a star, but somehow Brandon was also the answer to our teams fortunes turning around.

I think it’s more about who was played instead.
Weller got a lot of chances in 2017 despite mediocre form and a few of White’s performances surpassed that. He certainly showed more in his one game forward injured than Weller did over a lot of his significantly greater opportunities

Same deal with Newnes at times in the middle.

I think the argument has changed with the frustration of not playing White met with the response to that frustration.

As one of the bigger critics of how this all played out... the criticism is not that White was a genuine star that should have played unconditionally but rather that based on exposed form, he deserved more opportunity.

Personally, I tend to lean to the BM way of thinking that White pbly didn’t work hard enough and that’s why he didn’t get more chances. On exposed form however, he showed promise... surely even the harshest critic has to grant him that.

Therefore, rather than play ppl that aren’t producing, it simply makes more sense granted him more opportunity when form warranted with the hope that that maybe that could lead to a change in attitude

So was it just a simple case of players like Weller and Newnes getting games just because there wasn't anybody in the VFL capable of pushing them out during a time in our rebuild when the cupboard was very very bare. And absolutely agree there were players running around in the Sandy side during this time that showed promise but just couldn't deliver on what was required to push somebody like Weller or Newnes out of the seniors.

The fact Weller, White and more than likely Newnes are no longer on the list, suggests we had players in the seniors and reserves that frustrated the coaches as much as anyone else. During Richo's coaching tenure he just didn't have the resources and luxury of dropping or promoting players, essentially we had players in the VFL and AFL sides that weren't AFL standard and this was just symptomatic of a rebuilding team. As we know it takes time to get a critical mass of players who can constantly push for the best 22 and I suppose it's why we have the term bottom 6 within the best 22, because even the top 4 ladder clubs will always find it hard to get the desired AFL quality in every position each week let alone the bottom 4 ladder teams. It's really hard to do when there are only 756 players each year on the AFL register from a small population with a relatively low talent pool, the new franchise clubs made it even harder and have been diluting that pool even further over the years. Let's just say Ratts will be in a stronger position at the selection table in 2020 than Richo ever was so hopefully we see more competition for spots.

No disrespect intended but I simply reject the notion that we had no one capable of pushing them out.

Much like apparently Pierce couldn’t push Hickey or Longer out, my impression is that we had options and that the coaching style/preference was conservative.

Do you prefer the same consistent mediocre performance of a Hickey/Longer or do you prefer to grant opportunity to guys like Pierce and Marshall in the hope that you develop them more.
For me, within balance, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving opportunity and trying to develop players every once in a while as opposed to consistently doing what you know isn’t working or getting better.

It’s the Jack Lonie argument all over again. He hasn’t looked good at times but developed over his repeated opportunities. Particular players didn’t seem to be afforded that

It's ironic that at the same time we debate why Brandon White was delisted we find it hard to put forward genuine names that were capable of pushing players out of our best 22 over the past few season's, ironic also because I think we hold some league record for most players to debut in that time and the players tried are ones who either couldn't make the grade, whether they be the VFL players like White and Rice or the AFL players like Weller and Newnes. Or the ones that were tried like Lonie and Marshall that did prove they could make the grade. It's as though we are debating that the club and coaches got right in the end and maybe all the discussion really is about is the minor issue of did it take too long?

As a side note, and using your logic re coaching style/preference, how do you assess why Darren Minchington didn't make it while on the Hawks list.

[skeptic]

Brandon White came and left a good VFL standard player. He never really came on, played from within his natural talents and from all appearances and repute, never really grasped the notion of professionalism. In his first couple of preseasons he went backwards in fitness and application, it was only his potential that kept him there as long as he was. Shame really.

Ironically Richo become a lightening rod for misguided frustration that was somehow sparking from Brandon White and his inability to grab his opportunity. Weirdly enough the sparks seem to grow larger and fire more rapidly as the frustration with Richo and his coaching grew. And it grew to the point that it then become internet myth that not only was Richo to blame for not turning Brandon into a star, but somehow Brandon was also the answer to our teams fortunes turning around.

I think it’s more about who was played instead.
Weller got a lot of chances in 2017 despite mediocre form and a few of White’s performances surpassed that. He certainly showed more in his one game forward injured than Weller did over a lot of his significantly greater opportunities

Same deal with Newnes at times in the middle.

I think the argument has changed with the frustration of not playing White met with the response to that frustration.

As one of the bigger critics of how this all played out... the criticism is not that White was a genuine star that should have played unconditionally but rather that based on exposed form, he deserved more opportunity.

Personally, I tend to lean to the BM way of thinking that White pbly didn’t work hard enough and that’s why he didn’t get more chances. On exposed form however, he showed promise... surely even the harshest critic has to grant him that.

Therefore, rather than play ppl that aren’t producing, it simply makes more sense granted him more opportunity when form warranted with the hope that that maybe that could lead to a change in attitude

So was it just a simple case of players like Weller and Newnes getting games just because there wasn't anybody in the VFL capable of pushing them out during a time in our rebuild when the cupboard was very very bare. And absolutely agree there were players running around in the Sandy side during this time that showed promise but just couldn't deliver on what was required to push somebody like Weller or Newnes out of the seniors.

The fact Weller, White and more than likely Newnes are no longer on the list, suggests we had players in the seniors and reserves that frustrated the coaches as much as anyone else. During Richo's coaching tenure he just didn't have the resources and luxury of dropping or promoting players, essentially we had players in the VFL and AFL sides that weren't AFL standard and this was just symptomatic of a rebuilding team. As we know it takes time to get a critical mass of players who can constantly push for the best 22 and I suppose it's why we have the term bottom 6 within the best 22, because even the top 4 ladder clubs will always find it hard to get the desired AFL quality in every position each week let alone the bottom 4 ladder teams. It's really hard to do when there are only 756 players each year on the AFL register from a small population with a relatively low talent pool, the new franchise clubs made it even harder and have been diluting that pool even further over the years. Let's just say Ratts will be in a stronger position at the selection table in 2020 than Richo ever was so hopefully we see more competition for spots.

No disrespect intended but I simply reject the notion that we had no one capable of pushing them out.

Much like apparently Pierce couldn’t push Hickey or Longer out, my impression is that we had options and that the coaching style/preference was conservative.

Do you prefer the same consistent mediocre performance of a Hickey/Longer or do you prefer to grant opportunity to guys like Pierce and Marshall in the hope that you develop them more.
For me, within balance, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving opportunity and trying to develop players every once in a while as opposed to consistently doing what you know isn’t working or getting better.

It’s the Jack Lonie argument all over again. He hasn’t looked good at times but developed over his repeated opportunities. Particular players didn’t seem to be afforded that

It's ironic that at the same time we debate why Brandon White was delisted we find it hard to put forward genuine names that were capable of pushing players out of our best 22 over the past few season's, ironic also because I think we hold some league record for most players to debut in that time and the players tried are ones who either couldn't make the grade, whether they be the VFL players like White and Rice or the AFL players like Weller and Newnes. Or the ones that were tried like Lonie and Marshall that did prove they could make the grade. It's as though we are debating that the club and coaches got right in the end and maybe all the discussion really is about is the minor issue of did it take too long?

As a side note, and using your logic re coaching style/preference, how do you assess why Darren Minchington didn't make it while on the Hawks list.

You keep throwing out the no names in these various discussions despite the fact that I keep giving them to you.

White had a go forward this year. Over the last few years he could have played ahead of Weller, Long, Sinclair, Lonie and even Newnes when he was trialed forward
Even Acres if he was indeed as underwhelming as many are now saying he was


As a defender he could have got a few games ahead of Dmac, or Savage (by far the most overrated player on our list), again Newnes when he has at times set up down back.

I could go through the mid as well but you get the idea

Will repeat again my issue is not rewarding good VFL form hand in hand with extended opportunity for bad AFL form.

A lot of players on our list didn’t come to us ready made... Marshall, Membrey, Lonie, Clarke, Bruce, Battle and Roberton come to mind... they got better with opportunity.

On Minch... my impression was that he was largely injured for the season and they ran out of patience with him (or perhaps he faultered towards the end of the year and they felt it was better to try something else.
Regardless I still would have liked to have seen him play more midfield early in his career where he was playing in the VFL opposed to the small forward role

[Secret Kiel]

Sorry Sceptic for confusion, I suppose you are a lone voice on the names then, btw I'm confused why you keep putting Long, Sinclair and Lonie up, White has clearly not pushed any of those names out and will more than likely those names will be well and truly embedded as best 22 in 2020 if they aren't already. Giving opportunity to white was clearly not the right thing to do and clearly he couldn't make it in the mind of 2 coaches and also the same coaches clearly thought the issues with White outweighed the issues of the players already in the seniors. Bad AFL form can still be better than the best VFL form and clearly White being delisted is proof his failure was not necessarily due to opportunity.

[skeptic]

Sorry Sceptic for confusion, I suppose you are a lone voice on the names then, btw I'm confused why you keep putting Long, Sinclair and Lonie up, White has clearly not pushed any of those names out and will more than likely those names will be well and truly embedded as best 22 in 2020 if they aren't already. Giving opportunity to white was clearly not the right thing to do and clearly he couldn't make it in the mind of 2 coaches and also the same coaches clearly thought the issues with White outweighed the issues of the players already in the seniors. Bad AFL form can still be better than the best VFL form and clearly White being delisted is proof his failure was not necessarily due to opportunity.

Sure. In fairness, I never really earmarked White as a forward/mid but noted he did alright in his brief stint there. If the choice is btw doing the same failing thing for an extended period even if you know it won’t work versus mixing something up for a potential unexpected benefit... I personally would roll the dice regularly.
I’m just not a fan of playing a struggling player for an extended period when you know it’s going to fail. If there’s issues with White’s attitude... would rather try to mix things up to work through that rather than leave him languish in the VFL for no return.

My opinion is... and I don’t think I’m alone here, that some of White’s AFL form was very promising and worth trying to develop as opposed to putting in the too hard basket.

The end of the day... many of the selections that I’ve been critical of (extensive opportunity over years with bad form) Longer, Hickey, Weller, pbly Newnes are gone and we gained nothing from playing them whereas the deprived players that showed glimpses in Pierce, White, Minch etc are also gone without having had the same chances. I’d have tried to develop good potential as opposed to repeatedly doing the same thing I knew wasn’t going to work.

Specific to White... personally, I don’t think that Dmac has really outshone that much.... am personally not a huge fan of Savage’s output given he has years and years (100-150 games more) experience by comparison...
am just saying that given we’ve been mediocre overall for 5 years I’d have preferred to mix it up more. Quite literally nothing to lose

[To the top]

Skeptic

I agree with your use of “conservative” as a description of the Richardson period - and it hurt players with inventive skills aka Acres

It also saw Geary as Captain, including his lack of support for Carlisle after the Carlton match which was in my view poor

Where I do not agree with you is putting Hickey in the same category as Longer and Pierce

Hickey is a fixture in the West Coast team

Where are Longer and Pierce

The fact that Hickey is with West Coast (playing with Nic Nac no less) was due to Richardson and the type of player he encouraged with his conservative not let’s be beaten by too much strategy seeking his survival

Well our percentage over the Richardson years was the commentary on that

The reputations of some players was exclusively down to Richardson and his conservatism

In life you either progress or you wither on the vine

We were withering under Richardson

Ratten is charged with changing the culture

Long will be a lock in our best 22

He needs to impact more but he has unique inventive skills which will be encouraged

We went after Hill for a reason

[skeptic]

Skeptic

I agree with your use of “conservative” as a description of the Richardson period - and it hurt players with inventive skills aka Acres

It also saw Geary as Captain, including his lack of support for Carlisle after the Carlton match which was in my view poor

Where I do not agree with you is putting Hickey in the same category as Longer and Pierce

Hickey is a fixture in the West Coast team

Where are Longer and Pierce

The fact that Hickey is with West Coast (playing with Nic Nac no less) was due to Richardson and the type of player he encouraged with his conservative not let’s be beaten by too much strategy seeking his survival

Well our percentage over the Richardson years was the commentary on that

The reputations of some players was exclusively down to Richardson and his conservatism

In life you either progress or you wither on the vine

We were withering under Richardson

Ratten is charged with changing the culture

Long will be a lock in our best 22

He needs to impact more but he has unique inventive skills which will be encouraged

We went after Hill for a reason

Don’t disagree with that.

I do strongly agree that Hickey was better than Longer and Pierce and even Marshall until this year.

2016 is was an absolute lock and a very good AFL lock.

His 2017 (albeit injured) and 2018 however he stagnated badly and has never really gotten close to his earlier form.

Over 2018, I would have preferred that Marshall and Pierce played a bit more given Hickey got a good run at it and was so so at best

[saynta]

Will wait and see if any other club drafts or signs White, or Rice for that mater.

[saintspremiers]

Skeptic

I agree with your use of “conservative” as a description of the Richardson period - and it hurt players with inventive skills aka Acres

It also saw Geary as Captain, including his lack of support for Carlisle after the Carlton match which was in my view poor

Where I do not agree with you is putting Hickey in the same category as Longer and Pierce

Hickey is a fixture in the West Coast team

Where are Longer and Pierce

The fact that Hickey is with West Coast (playing with Nic Nac no less) was due to Richardson and the type of player he encouraged with his conservative not let’s be beaten by too much strategy seeking his survival

Well our percentage over the Richardson years was the commentary on that

The reputations of some players was exclusively down to Richardson and his conservatism

In life you either progress or you wither on the vine

We were withering under Richardson

Ratten is charged with changing the culture

Long will be a lock in our best 22

He needs to impact more but he has unique inventive skills which will be encouraged

We went after Hill for a reason

Don’t disagree with that.

I do strongly agree that Hickey was better than Longer and Pierce and even Marshall until this year.

2016 is was an absolute lock and a very good AFL lock.

His 2017 (albeit injured) and 2018 however he stagnated badly and has never really gotten close to his earlier form.

Over 2018, I would have preferred that Marshall and Pierce played a bit more given Hickey got a good run at it and was so so at best

Whilst Hickledick was no champion for us, Longer was deadset spud of a player and was gifted a spot on our list for 2019 due to the unfortunate Hickey trade (needed to secure a pick for Hanners).

[skeptic]

It doesn’t matter if any other club drafts White or Rice.

The fact that White spent as long as he did on our list and couldn’t get opportunity despite performance has painted him as damaged goods.
A choice btw a promising kid versus a guy that was in a team that didn’t finish higher than 10th for 6 years and they wouldn’t play him is no choice

As for Rice, he never looked close to it. No questions there.

[axcellence]

It doesn’t matter if any other club drafts White or Rice.

The fact that White spent as long as he did on our list and couldn’t get opportunity despite performance has painted him as damaged goods.
A choice btw a promising kid versus a guy that was in a team that didn’t finish higher than 10th for 6 years and they wouldn’t play him is no choice

As for Rice, he never looked close to it. No questions there.

Rice was all about bragging rights.
I bet he turns up on Carlton’s rookie list like Goddard. They do have a strange fascination with Saints delistings. Just keep thinking that it’s the club not dud players. I laughed heartily when Heyne was put on their list after delisting. He never showed anything.

Frankly, I was surprised on Rice’s drafting - see his draft video. He barely looked like putting in an effort for his sprint test.

Anyway, hindsight makes us all heroes.

[Special]

It doesn’t matter if any other club drafts White or Rice.

The fact that White spent as long as he did on our list and couldn’t get opportunity despite performance has painted him as damaged goods.
A choice btw a promising kid versus a guy that was in a team that didn’t finish higher than 10th for 6 years and they wouldn’t play him is no choice

As for Rice, he never looked close to it. No questions there.

Rice was all about bragging rights.
I bet he turns up on Carlton’s rookie list like Goddard. They do have a strange fascination with Saints delistings. Just keep thinking that it’s the club not dud players. I laughed heartily when Heyne was put on their list after delisting. He never showed anything.

Frankly, I was surprised on Rice’s drafting - see his draft video. He barely looked like putting in an effort for his sprint test.

Anyway, hindsight makes us all heroes.

Lol. I love it how the wheels have turned and they are getting all our rejects.

I think all our duds that end up at Carlton should be awarded the Sam Cranage Medal.

[Secret Kiel]

It doesn’t matter if any other club drafts White or Rice.

The fact that White spent as long as he did on our list and couldn’t get opportunity despite performance has painted him as damaged goods.
A choice btw a promising kid versus a guy that was in a team that didn’t finish higher than 10th for 6 years and they wouldn’t play him is no choice

As for Rice, he never looked close to it. No questions there.

Ironically you are painting others in a negative light at the club because of your belief Brandon was a promising kid and other players were wrongfully getting a game ahead of him. Although the AFL system get's it wrong some times with regards to promising kids not being given opportunity, or enough opportunity, but on the whole it is an elite system that is very good at procuring the best most of the time and clearly Brandon was given 11 games of opportunity. Unfortunately the system doesn't afford for players to serve their apprenticeship on a best 22 list, they need to be best 22 to get on that list.