RoMa in the ruck

[WellardSaint]

The big guy is great at taking the Sherrin outta the ruck contest, and hacking it forward.
It adds to his disposal tally, his coaches' votes, and his AF points.

BUT WHAT does it do for the team?

The kicks are like Seb's blind kicks to nobody.
What good are they?

His ruck play isn't like Luke Jackson, or Max Gawn, or any other top ruckmen.
A hacking kick can't help the team when it's a Hail Mary.

It's done in underage footy when a child who is larger than the others kicks it to nobody in desperate hope.

Gawn can feed it to Oliver, Petracca, etc.
Carlton's ruck can get it to Crippa etc.

Why get excited over 28 touches from RoMa when they're just empty numbers?

[Devilhead]

Maybe those in forward positions can play in front and try and anticipate a hack dump kick

It feels like Romo has been doing it as we are currently lacking the inside ball winners around the contest

Crouch and Clark back in should help in that sphere ... so maybe now we might see less of it

[Big Max]

Which would you prefer?

The opposition ruckman hacks the ball 40 meters in their direction to a contest .. or .. Marshall hacks the ball 40 meters in our direction to a contest?

With the Marshall scenario, the ball is 80 meters closer to our goal, and it's to a contest. So the question should be, how good are our half forwards? Are they good enough to win a man-on-man contest about 50% of the time? If yes, perhaps they can also hack the ball another 40 meters our way, now deep in our forward line and to a contest. Can our forwards win a man-on-man contest, and take a shot at goal?

Unfortunately it seems most of the Saints prefer to chip-kick and possess the ball across our 1/2 back line .. until they make an ...oops ..and turn it over for an opposition goal.

[older saint]

Perhaps the fact our mids are struggling to win clearance and we played a very good midfield has something to do with this tactic.
Without Crouch we lack clearance strength so to negate this perhaps this is the tactic which has been used.?

[B.M]

How many times does he actually do that?

10%

And it’s kicked in dirty as a 50/50 ball. Why don’t the forwards predict/anticipate and engage their opponents?


Marshall is an amazing player

Would you rather a ruckman get 30 and take 10 marks and win 25 - 30 hit outs
Or
A ruckman get 10 and 3 marks and get 40-50 hit outs

I know what I’d prefer

[B.M]

Btw

He outplayed Jackson (who is a gun)

[SaintDippa]

Every other side in the comp would have a higher % strategy in place, Stoppage strategy #7, mids anticipate Marshall possession then run forward, Marshall to handball to one of three options, receiver runs to 50 and hits King lace out. Unfortunately our coaching staff have, to my eye, yet to start thinking about and implementing any clearance strategies.

[St Dave]

Despite being one of our best players, this I think is the nexus of issues holding us back as a team. It wouldn't matter if we had the best midfield in the league if the ruck is not giving them the ball and instead just taking the ball themselves. While Rowan beat Jackson on headline stats, Jackson won on goal assists 1 to 0 and score involvements 8 to 4

[The_Dud]

I think many are scared to dare question or doubt him, as he is one of our best players.

But his hacking it out of the ruck doesn't help the team, more often than not it just comes straight back over his head.

Marshall is superb around the ground, but ordinary in the ruck.

Compare his clearances to Jackson's on the weekend, chalk and cheese. Marshall would grab and hack, while Jackson would take possession, get on the move and then handball it out to a better user who was now in the clear.

Marshall should be trying to help our mids, not pad his stats.

[bigcarl]

Perhaps the fact our mids are struggling to win clearance and we played a very good midfield has something to do with this tactic.
Without Crouch we lack clearance strength so to negate this perhaps this is the tactic which has been used.?

I think it has everything to do with it and he is probably operating under instruction. What does it say about the rest of the midfield when Marshall feels the need to - or is told to - do this?

Crouch and Clark back will lend much-needed support, but even then we’re not up with the top sides.

As it stands, I’d say Marshall is our only elite midfielder. Steele probably used to be, but he just seems to negate nowadays rather than win a lot of ball. Windhager may get there in time.

I’d have thought Owens would have been given an extended crack at it in the clearances, but apparently the powers that be don’t see him as suitable for that role. Perhaps he doesn’t have the endurance?

We need a Bont, a Petracca, a Dusty (in his prime) … a Lenny Hayes.

[King Max]

I'm concerned that opposition defenders who play against Marshall 1-2 times a year are anticipating what's happening better than our forwards who play with him every week.

[St Dave]

I'm concerned that opposition defenders who play against Marshall 1-2 times a year are anticipating what's happening better than our forwards who play with him every week.

To defend a hack kick all the defenders need to do is what they would want to do anyway, sit on their man and make it a 50/50. We don't have the forwards to out muscle a defender and take a stationary contested grab 1v1 or 2. Either we need to give our actual mids running towards the goals the kick inside 50, or structure our forwards radically differently to try to create space 30-40m from the contest and somehow lead in to that space where the hack kick is going to land

[Brunswicksainter]

The big guy is great at taking the Sherrin outta the ruck contest, and hacking it forward.
It adds to his disposal tally, his coaches' votes, and his AF points.

BUT WHAT does it do for the team?

The kicks are like Seb's blind kicks to nobody.
What good are they?

His ruck play isn't like Luke Jackson, or Max Gawn, or any other top ruckmen.
A hacking kick can't help the team when it's a Hail Mary.

It's done in underage footy when a child who is larger than the others kicks it to nobody in desperate hope.

Gawn can feed it to Oliver, Petracca, etc.
Carlton's ruck can get it to Crippa etc.

Why get excited over 28 touches from RoMa when they're just empty numbers?

His tap work certainly has room for improvement for sure but, but declaring all his touches as just “empty numbers” is the worse call I have ever seen on this site. I will make sure to remember to disregard any point you make going forward.

[B.M]

Does Marshall actually do it that much???

He had 37 hit outs

So he didn’t do it at least 37 times

We hang on to small details to illustrate a point which often by numbers is actually a fallacy

I reckon he did it 6-8 times. And really, it should be a 50/50 ahead of the ball and actually put a lot of pressure on the defenders

As a defender 1 thing I hated was quick dirty ball entries

Are people forgetting the 10 marks
The dropping back in the hole

He does a lot of things and does them well - gun

And atm is our best players - issues are obviously elsewhere

[B.M]

Bit hard to get score assists when we don’t score

[Devilhead]

Grabbing the ball out of the ruck would be considered a hit out ... first hands on the ball from a ball up

Point is that we don't seem to be capitalising from this tactic

Also RoMo might have broken even in general stats with Jackson but Jackson was a bigger influence in the outcome of the game... as mentioned above

[CURLY]

I think many are scared to dare question or doubt him, as he is one of our best players.

But his hacking it out of the ruck doesn't help the team, more often than not it just comes straight back over his head.

Marshall is superb around the ground, but ordinary in the ruck.

Compare his clearances to Jackson's on the weekend, chalk and cheese. Marshall would grab and hack, while Jackson would take possession, get on the move and then handball it out to a better user who was now in the clear.

Marshall should be trying to help our mids, not pad his stats.

Good old Mr Negative.

[CURLY]

Marshall needs to give it off after a mark or free kick he along with Howard and Hammer should rarely kick.

[St Dave]

Bit hard to get score assists when we don’t score

Yeah, that's the point B.M. If a clearance isn't very effective it is hard to score from it. Appreciate this is only anecdotal, but in our best scoring game Rowan only had 19 disposals with 9 contested and had 2 goal assists and 7 score involvements. Some times less is more

[B.M]

It could also mean

Other players actually played better

Marshall has been head and shoulders the BEST player in the last two weeks
It’s just a pity no one did the heavy lifting with him
Basically he has flown solo

He is the furtherest thing from our issues, I laugh when we are play poorly and people blame the best player for us not winning
Seb Ross… cough couch

[St Dave]

It could also mean

Other players actually played better

So what is your theory for why others played better when Marshall got less disposals? Personally I think it has something to do with those other players disposals being more effective because they were facing their targets when they kicked, but keen to hear the B.M theory.

[WellardSaint]

A couple on here suggest Roma is instructed to try to grab pill out of the ruck and kick.
I agree, and think it's because our midfield doesn't have the class/skill/talent of Port, Sydney, Lions, Dees, Blues, Pies, etc.

We have to stop the oppo mids roving to Roma- take em out of the equation.
Keep the ball away from them.

Our roving to Roma is a weakness, so coaches want to minimise that weakness.
Just grab it and boot it

[B.M]

Are you saying Marshall only plays well in losses and when he doesn’t play well we win

Obviously that’s wrong, and would take little research to prove it’s not the case

Ro is a great player. That simple

[SaintPav]

Marshall is our best player by far.

[St Dave]

Are you saying Marshall only plays well in losses and when he doesn’t play well we win

Obviously that’s wrong, and would take little research to prove it’s not the case

Ro is a great player. That simple

I will assume you are replying to me and not just talking to no one, though you didn't answer my question do I am not sure.

You said earlier in this thread that Rowan has been our best player over the last 2 weeks, and they are our two worst performances, so it seems to me like you are making my argument for me.

Personally, I think he plays a better game when he makes the people around him better, but if you prefer individual disposals over 30 than a team score over 90, whatever makes you happy I guess.

If you are actually willing to engage with points raised I am keen to hear your research.