List this, list that....

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List this, list that....

Post: # 443385Post rodgerfox »

Why are we suddenly deciding that our list is terrible?

Last year all we needed was a decent coach, as our list was so good it coached itself to the top 6.

Now, I think we all agree that this was nonsense.

Our list isn't the best in the comp (as I've said for a while), but surely people are starting to realise a couple of things....

The best list doens't mean squat. Imagine having 22 Tony Lockett's on your list? Awesome on paper. 22 of the best players to have ever played the game. However, we know how good they'd perform once they all stepped out on the park don't we.

It's about balance. This is why I think it is so silly to compare lists, and list matchups before a game to decide the result.

It doesn't work this way.

A backline is it's own team. A defender these days doesn't simply 'tag' his own man all day. They need to know where the small defenders will be when the ball hits the ground, they need to fill space, they need to block, they need to be able to grab the ball under pressure and slam it onto their boot knowing that one of their mates will be in that general vicinity.

By simply matching up the opposition's forwards, you may prevent them from kicking bags. However yo uwill often let through the 'easy' goals that frustrate the hell out of us - you also won't provide the drive that a team needs coming from it's back half.

The forwards are the same. The midfield even moreso.

This is why injuries hurt so much. You don't just need a big name player to go down to suffer. Anyone getting hurt during a game hurts as everyone has a role.

We didn't have Max on Friday night - the best fullback in the comp. Forget Glass. Max has been doing it for years, and will continue to do so when his body gets right.

We were forced to play Goose at FB (a silly move as Lynch doesn't actually use his strength that often so a smaller option would have been better - if we had one!) which left a gaping hole.

So the consensus is suddenly that our list is poor and has holes everywhere.

This stems from the same armchair experts who claimed we coached ourselves and once we had a decent coach we'd win the flag. Rather than concede that our coaching staff played a big role in our 'success' over the past 3 years, they're clutching at anything.

The fact is, as someone stated, we have been in a winnable position in the just about every game! Very, very winnable positions too. Against West Coast twice, Sydney, Adelaide, Collingwood, Hawthorn and North.

I think we've 'lost' games, rather than the opposition 'win' them too in most cases.

Again, without Max, Harves, BJ, Hamill, Attard, Ball, Baker (plus Goose not being right and X with a limp) we only lost against the reigning premier due to easy missed shots at goal.

Not the 'list'. Our poor kicking at goal, yet again, cost us.

What people do, and it has always frustrated the hell out of me, is to be incredibly short sighted. 2 years ago, it was 'Sydney do this, Sydney do that, we need to be like Sydney' becuase they stole a flag. Last year it was 'rookie list this, rookie list that' becuase West Coast won a flag with rookies in their team.

Now we're looking at Geelong.

Let's look at Geelong. People are saying they've improved their list, that's the reason for them dominating. They rejigged their coaching department. They recruited Selwood etc. etc. etc.

Nonsense.

None of the above hurt mind you, however the reason they're winning is very, very simple. They are all on the park and healthy.

They all had awesome pre-seasons.

Ottens is fit and blitzing. Wojo is back up and running. Steve Johnson's ankle is Ok, Chapman is injury free. Harley is back the backline and healthy. Their midfield put in massive pre-seasons.

The reason Selwood is playing well, is that he's about 7th in line when the opposition look at who to stop! Because all they're good players are actually playing this year.

Sydney won a flag because they had no injuries, and all the other teams they faced in the finals had terrible injuries - us included.

They are a good side, but hell, who wouldn't be with an unchanged lineup for 10 straight weeks!!

We had a terrible pre-season. We have had a horrific run with injury (and the tribunal), yet we kicked ourselves out of winning another 6 games for the year.

There's no need to panic. Get fit, trim the fat from the list and get the young guys ontp the list. No need to trade dramatically. We have what it takes, it's just that 'it' has spent most of the season in the grandstands.

I think Lyon will leave the list alone pretty much, and so he should.


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Post: # 443388Post Unforgiven »

Our list isn't terrible. We are just weak in some area's that team's now captilise against us on.


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Post: # 443390Post rodgerfox »

Saint Corin wrote:Our list isn't terrible. We are just weak in some area's that team's now captilise against us on.
I guess that's my point - are they capitalising on our list deficiencies? Or on the fact that key players are out injured?

Or are they capitalising on the fact that we miss important goals?

I don't think the list is what is causing us problems. We are making mistakes.

Mistakes happen when confidence is down. Mistakes happen when reserves players are getting their hands on the ball. Reserves players get their hands on the ball because the good players are out injured. Confidence can be down because you're not fit. It can be down because the good players are in the grandstand.

Seriously, what cost us on Friday night? Roo missing goals, Fiora missing goals, us not blowing them away in the first quarter and not enough midfield rotations to keep Cousins and Priddis under control for 4 quarters.

The first 3 are confidence.

The last one is because Harves, Bakes and BJ weren't on the park, Ball can't play in the midfield at the moment, ditto X and Attard went off injured.

If you blame that on 'list deficiencies' then so be it, but I don't.


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Post: # 443393Post Oh When the Saints »

rodgerfox wrote:There's no need to panic. Get fit, trim the fat from the list and get the young guys ontp the list. No need to trade dramatically. We have what it takes, it's just that 'it' has spent most of the season in the grandstands.
Totally agree.


Personally, I have always believed our list was over-rated, and I believe a large part of our previous success was due to GT's outstanding ability to inspire a group of men and prepare them to play attacking football.


We have lost 3 games this year because we failed to take our opportunities ... against the Dogs, Dockers and Eagles. Nothing to do with list, coach, gameplan, injuries etc.

Just because we failed to convert when we should have.

Win those three and we are 14 wins ... same as last year.



With the current list, we are still very close to a flag ..... if the players get super-fit over the pre-season, we add a couple of midfielders to our list and Harvey goes around again, we have all the ingredients required to win a premiership.

IMO.


They should only play AFL games now when it's raining. Slow games of footy are so much better to watch.
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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443403Post St DAC »

rodgerfox wrote:The fact is, as someone stated, we have been in a winnable position in the just about every game! Very, very winnable positions too. Against West Coast twice, Sydney, Adelaide, Collingwood, Hawthorn and North.
Rodger, I agree with your basic point (to a point ...) but you can't truly say we threw it away against North. I was at the game, and we never looked like playing well enough to win. North made us look stupid at times (and at times we were stupid in our play) and controlled the game from minute one. Frankly, in that game, we were plainly inept.

I do agree we need a better injury run, and to tweak our list to get more and better midfielders. We've been found wanting there all season.


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Post: # 443446Post Simon Templar »

Interesting that West Coast's ruckman Cox, fullback & fullforward Glass & Lynch aaand 2 of their midfielders Priddis & Cousins had great games and were 5 of the top 6 players in the game.

Given that's the case, we nearly won that game.....2 point loss blew out to 10 pts in last seconds of the game.

How is that possible :?: :shock: :idea: 8-)


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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443531Post saintsRrising »

Rodger I think your post is deliberately mischievious as it staing that their are MAJORITY views on issues when by my reading of the forum their clearly is not.
rodgerfox wrote: Why are we suddenly deciding that our list is terrible? .
We are not Rodger....

FIRSTLY who is saying our list is TERRIBLE?????

As I have said since before GT went...and why GT had to go it is about list management and balance of our list.... that our list was not in balance and had some clear deficiences.

No list is perfect.....but given the boon of Blightlotto, Draftlotto, BluesCheetingLotto (BJ) and the good fortune to have extra priority picks before they were restricted our list is not as good as it could or should be.

This does not make it TERRIBLE...it just means that we bungled the chance to havea truly AWESOME list.
rodgerfox wrote: It's about balance. .
ah...at last the penny has dropped...
.
rodgerfox wrote: So the consensus is suddenly that our list is poor and has holes everywhere.
.
What consensus?? Consensus means the MAJORITY. You are drama queen on this as the majority of posts that I read DO NOT have forumites saying that we have a POOR LIST.

I think the consensus is that our list is pretty good...but that it has some glaring deficiencies IF we want to be the No1 team. Let me repeat that...IF we want to be the No 1. Team
rodgerfox wrote: There's no need to panic. Get fit, trim the fat from the list and get the young guys ontp the list. No need to trade dramatically.
.
Well this part I agree with and sensible words...but who is panicking?????
rodgerfox wrote: We have what it takes, it's just that 'it' has spent most of the season in the grandstands.

.
err..part of what is in the granstands is Gardiner....


BUT I fully agree that our medical and training management over the last SEVERAL years has been pretty TERRIBLE...impact injuries aside. This ceratainlt affected our pre-season...and mosre so than I hope it would...and then carrried through for the first half of the season.

The wheel now seems to have turned...lets all hope it has.



I think Lyon will leave the list alone pretty much, and so he should.[/quote]


Well that depends on what you mean by pretty much.

As I have posted in other strings I do not envidage massage change...and agree with you that it is not required.....or more precisely that massive change through trading would be very destructive.

I anticipate

** at least 3 players in the draft....maybe 4.

**Maybe one trade deal

**rookies to be reviewed and after promotions/ delistings the rooke list to be topped up.

This to me is normal change...healthy change.


However the skill will come in how RL balances our list and addresses our current weaknesses... I do not expect ONE year fixes but rather that Ross wil seek to improve our list in an ongoing and balanced way.

Forget the best available recruiting nonsense......Ross will be mindful of securing/developing

**mids with pace and footskills
**a ruckmen
**a full back


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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443537Post rodgerfox »

saintsRrising wrote: I think the consensus is that our list is pretty good...but that it has some glaring deficiencies IF we want to be the No1 team. Let me repeat that...IF we want to be the No 1. Team
This is partly my point - being the No. 1 Team does not coincide with having the best list.

I don't believe, with the Draft and Salary Cap laws in place, that any club can maintain a list with no deficiencies that won't become 'glaring' when the club suffers injuries.
saintsRrising wrote: err..part of what is in the granstands is Gardiner....
Only a very small part of. If he can play like he did in his only good year of football (which by the way was about 7 years ago!!) then he will definately add value. Otherwise, I see his position as one of the least concerns.
saintsRrising wrote: BUT I fully agree that our medical and training management over the last SEVERAL years has been pretty TERRIBLE...impact injuries aside. This ceratainlt affected our pre-season...and mosre so than I hope it would...and then carrried through for the first half of the season.

The wheel now seems to have turned...lets all hope it has.
Huh??

Bally can't run. X is cactus still. Max can't get on the park. Harves has a quad. Hamill still isn't up. Gram still isn't right and Gehrig's foot's no good.

Gee, I hate to see when things go bad!


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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443538Post saintsRrising »

rodgerfox wrote:
This stems from the same armchair experts who claimed we coached ourselves .
I note that you are pluralising again Rodger.....did many forumites indeed post this ...or just the one????


As a match day coach I thought that GT in his last half season post Bonnie Doon got with the program & I rate that period of his coaching as quite good.....he started for example to coach against the flood rather than ingnore..

However being a successful coach is more than being a match day coach.

A good coach needs to build and develop a list.....and to facilatate and not resist the process.

But GT was slowing devaluing our list as he did not have the knack of developing players and improving the list and had a destructive penchant for recruiting ordinary players who had been rejected by other clubs.

Medical wise....he failed to get on top of things.

Now you can argue that there were not enough resources,,,,and at the start this was true, but when GT left it was not and he was clearly resisting efforts to expand the resource and development base at the club.




Make no mistake about WC..there are well coached YES...but what sets them part is that they have the best player identification and development system in the AFL.

They have built a good list through skill hard, yakka and yes to be fair$$$$$$ too...as much as we may wish to whinge about other issues.

Player DEVELOPMENT has been central to their success.




Kosi for example needs to be given intense ruck coaching....just read his own words about he has benefitted from M Clarke this year for example.


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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443540Post saintsRrising »

rodgerfox wrote:


Huh??

Bally can't run.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state. Hopefully the surgery he is about to have will at least partially relieve this long running issue.
rodgerfox wrote:X is cactus still.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.

rodgerfox wrote:Max can't get on the park.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.

rodgerfox wrote:Harves has a quad.
Yes he does...some injuries will occur. However harvey has stated that now when he feels twinge he does not push on but does something about it.


His injuries this year have been overcome quickly....which to me means that he is now being manged well.

rodgerfox wrote:Hamill still isn't up.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.
rodgerfox wrote:Gram still isn't right He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.

and Gehrig's foot's no good.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state. Though I understand that his foot is now ok.
rodgerfox wrote:Gee, I hate to see when things go bad!
You mean WENT bad Rodger......any fair assessment would acknowledge that Ross was given an injury riddled list.

The point is that things would now seem to be on the improve and that our next pre-season will be a lot better than the 2007 one.


The CLUB needs to get on top of our injury problem.....not prevent it 100% as this is impossible....but to have no worse than the AFL injury average.


FACT is our performance over the LAST SEVERAL years was a disgrace.


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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443562Post rodgerfox »

saintsRrising wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:


Huh??

Bally can't run.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state. Hopefully the surgery he is about to have will at least partially relieve this long running issue.
rodgerfox wrote:X is cactus still.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.

rodgerfox wrote:Max can't get on the park.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.

rodgerfox wrote:Harves has a quad.
Yes he does...some injuries will occur. However harvey has stated that now when he feels twinge he does not push on but does something about it.


His injuries this year have been overcome quickly....which to me means that he is now being manged well.

rodgerfox wrote:Hamill still isn't up.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.
rodgerfox wrote:Gram still isn't right He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.

and Gehrig's foot's no good.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state. Though I understand that his foot is now ok.
rodgerfox wrote:Gee, I hate to see when things go bad!
You mean WENT bad Rodger......any fair assessment would acknowledge that Ross was given an injury riddled list.

The point is that things would now seem to be on the improve and that our next pre-season will be a lot better than the 2007 one.


The CLUB needs to get on top of our injury problem.....not prevent it 100% as this is impossible....but to have no worse than the AFL injury average.


FACT is our performance over the LAST SEVERAL years was a disgrace.
Yes, as I said - 'huh??'

Exactly how has 'the wheel turned??'

What the hell are you basing that on??

We're in terrible shape.


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Post: # 443623Post saintsRrising »

Rodger...medically/training wise to best of my knowledge impact and knee reconstruction injuries are basically not preventable.....nor arguablly Gardiner foot.

So from our injury list in terms of preventable injuries I discount BJ, Hamill, Gardiner and Attard.

i think that we are heading in the right direction....not that we are there. If one can believe what is written in this area it would seem that we need a better pre-season with different traing to further improve the process.

I don't think that beeter injury management is switch is either off or on....but rather is a process that once begun slowly improves the overall situation.

X is over his hammy type problem...what restricted him last week was a corkie.



I think Ross had a lrage list of injuries...and that there will be less going into 2008 than we had in 2007.

Naturally I would like less knees etc...but I don't now how you can prevent them.


Surgery wise it could be argued that we dithered too long with Hamill's knee and Ball's groin...."hoping" rather than acting.

Lets hope that the new AIS team provides better injury management.


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Post: # 443627Post mischa »

rodger (as usual) makes a lot of sense. What about the kangas list :roll: :roll:


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Post: # 443923Post Teflon »

Grant Thomas (Mischas father) said on SEN Friday that our list has been terribly overrated for years (just so also makes his record look better...but theres always an upside for Grant..)......sadly hes right though.

The list has holes that top 4 sides simply dont have. These arent "tweak" issues some are genuine lack of skills/pace (see midfield) issues.

What we DO have is a decent spine and the nucleus of a very good side still..........as Grant said....outr top 6 or 8 are as good as anyones......although a FB would be nice..........and Im hoping Maguire can learn to turn sideways....

Dodgy - you swing from "the list is ordinary its re build time"...to "its all just injury/luck".......truth is your not clear in any of your thoughts....and then you say...."oh Ive been saying this for months and getting bashed...."......

your mixed up son...but we all love ya... :wink:
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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443925Post bigcarl »

rodgerfox wrote:Imagine having 22 Tony Lockett's on your list? Awesome on paper. 22 of the best players to have ever played the game.
i could live with that. you'd never lose a game. the ball would never hit the ground except at the opening bounce. nearly every kick would hit its mark. unfortunately there's only one tony lockett


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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443929Post bigcarl »

rodgerfox wrote:We were forced to play Goose at FB (a silly move as Lynch doesn't actually use his strength that often so a smaller option would have been better - if we had one!) which left a gaping hole
i agree. it was a silly move. goose at his best is an attacking chb, not a lockdown type. he is was he is. don't try to turn him into danny frawley or maxie. fisher would have been a much better choice and then use goose to create as he has in the past

i agree with your basic statement that our list is basically strong. ie: it has plenty of talent.

but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

i thought west coast really showed up our on-ball division and we need to improve to match them (and others) there next season. i'd start by adding gilbert to the midfield rotation and possibly also gram.


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Re: List this, list that....

Post: # 443977Post Life Long Saint »

saintsRrising wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:Max can't get on the park.
He was given to Ross injured in an injured state.
The others I agree with but this is not true.

Max was fine...he was first injured in the pre-season well after Ross took over.


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Post: # 443991Post rodgerfox »

Teflon wrote: Dodgy - you swing from "the list is ordinary its re build time"...to "its all just injury/luck".......truth is your not clear in any of your thoughts....and then you say...."oh Ive been saying this for months and getting bashed...."......
I haven't swung at all.

I've said the same thing since 2004. And I'll still say it.

Our list is good. It is good enough to win a flag, but.....about 10 clubs have lists good enough to win a flag though.

This is my point.

The 'list' itself doesn't win the flag. Every club with it's best 22 available every week would be good, about 10 clubs are good enough to win the flag on paper alone.

Some clubs do have 'glaring holes' - ie. no gun clearance winners, no FB, no ruckman or no key forward. But to me, these are the only types of holes that can filled by simply picking up a player.

The myth that we lack pace, is a myth on two levels. Firstly we do have pace. All over the ground infact. Secondly, it's a myth that pace is critical to success.

As usual, people like SR looked to who was the flavour of the month, then decided that that is 'modern footy' that must be copied.
The Bulldogs were all out pace, and were winning matches. Suddenly pace was the be all and end all.

We can improve. Of course we can. But, our current list is very capable of winning a flag.

When I say our list is overrated, I mean it is not 'the best list in the AFL'. That is overrating the list. When we had a 21yo ruckman, Harves, Dal was 21, Lenny was 23, Ball was 21 - people were trying to say we had a list that was better than Clarke (at 29), Riccuito, Goodwin, Edwards and McLeod. No contest - not even close.

Right now though, 2-3 years down the track, we on par with them.

We weren't in 04-05. Everybody was overrating our list because we were an incredibly well drilled team who were all 'up' at the same time, and our results were spectacular.


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Post: # 443994Post joffaboy »

Good thread.

FWIW I think we have a fair list with some glaring weaknesses.

1) leg speed - we are pedrestrian and one paced. We need to get some speed into the lineup.

2) Disposal. We just cannot dispose of the ball with any great efficiency. Roo leads, and leads and leads again, and again, and again and 6 times out of 10 it will eith not to be his advantage, at his toes, or over his head.

That is just one example. It all came down to the third qtr on Friday night.

We butchered the ball like I had not seen for a long long time. Conversely, WCE, after the first qtr we clean and efficient and their delivery, especially to Lynch was virtually unstoppable.

We do not have a terrible list. We have a competitive list, however it needs refining and some leg speed and some skill refinement.


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Post: # 443997Post saintsRrising »

rodgerfox wrote:
As usual, people like SR looked to who was the flavour of the month, then decided that that is 'modern footy' that must be copied.
.
As usual Rodgerfox seeks to personally bait a poster rather than actually detail a point and debate it when his argument has been exposed as wanting.

As usual you are full of cr** and free with the truth.

Can you detail how I have been flavour of the month???? in my posts.


I FULLY detail my thoughts....and your so called "flavour of the month" is crap as I regularly post in ADVANCE of what could be done or will occur....and more often than not have been proven to be correct.


FOR example I remember posting on how Port Adelaide were rebuilding their list with quick players etc and wrote detaisl on this...and you on this forum ridiculed my thoughts and predictions.

Well were are Port adelaide now???? Exactly where I said they would be.

So as Mark Williams would say...You were wrong RodgerFox.







You are kidding yourseld Rodger if you think that the Saints do not need to play modern footy:

ie
* more run
*more pace
*to apply great defensive pressure when the opposition have the ball
* to minimise how much you kick toa contest (ie mainly just to forwards within range of goal)


Even GT (when his match day coaching vastly improved) got with the precept of modern footy in his last post-Bonnie Doon half-season.

He no longer ignored the flood, he played an extra man or two back....he played more runners of the backline.....he changed the play so that when the oppostion (ie Crows like) soaght to build play off their HB line that the saints players went to meet them rather than wait to be overwhelmned.










LASTLY Premierhship success comes about by doing MOST things right...not all as perfection does not exist.


Getting MOST of your players fit is a key one......but you have your head in the sand if you truly believe that it is not very important to build a good well balanced list.


IF you think not...then just go back and check out the premiership teams and you will note for example that most have had :
*Good rucks
*at least one good key forward
*A good to very good full back
* a good to exceptiuonal division of on-ballers
Last edited by saintsRrising on Mon 27 Aug 2007 10:28am, edited 1 time in total.


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Post: # 443998Post St DAC »

It's amazing just how quick you look as a team when you can win the pill and dispose of it accurately. The ball travels much quicker than a running player ... skill is more important than just raw speed IMO.

Leg speed is great, and I also wish we had more of it (and that RL can recruit some into the team) but as an example one of our best on Friday night was Lenny, and he ain't quick of leg by any measure; but he can hit targets, and when he had the pill I was confident of a scoring opportunity being iminent.


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Post: # 443999Post Life Long Saint »

The bottom end of our list, including some players that regularly play senior football are not good enough.

We have a terrific top end of our list. That will win you some games but we are lacking players to step-up when our top liners have an off day.

Look at the Aussie cricket side...They do not rely on any one player. Ponting is the top shelf batsman but if he has an off day, you can bet your bottom dollar that anther batsman will step up to cover the performance.

In a football side two things need to occur to allow this to happen.
1. The coach needs to recognise that a player is down and make a change quickly or drop the player.
2. The player given the new chance needs to take the opportunity presented.

I am not sure either of those things are happening this football club.


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Post: # 444000Post saintsRrising »

St DAC wrote:It's amazing just how quick you look as a team when you can win the pill and dispose of it accurately. The ball travels much quicker than a running player ... skill is more important than just raw speed IMO.

Leg speed is great, and I also wish we had more of it (and that RL can recruit some into the team) but as an example one of our best on Friday night was Lenny, and he ain't quick of leg by any measure; but he can hit targets, and when he had the pill I was confident of a scoring opportunity being iminent.
I think you need both.

Footskills were however the main factor in our loss to the Eagles.....and better (not perfect) execution would have seen us win.

In the Eagles game we did many things well....but this aspect let us down.


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Post: # 444005Post St DAC »

saintsRrising wrote:I think you need both.

Footskills were however the main factor in our loss to the Eagles.....and better (not perfect) execution would have seen us win.

In the Eagles game we did many things well....but this aspect let us down.
Yep, spot on. We didn't look slow against the Eagles (except Cousins over Blake, but that was no surprise) but we matched them pretty much everywhere except for execution, particularly by foot. Our turnovers in the third quarter especially just killed us. The number of easy goals they kicked then from our brain-dead errors was mortifying.


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Dan Warna
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Post: # 444010Post Dan Warna »

4;4 to 5:1 in the 4th quarter hurt, we had the tenacity to come back, but not enough.

they had their misses too, kicking 6 odd points in a row.

we weren't bad, but we didn't play 4 quarters of football.

WCE are definately vulnerable.


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SHUT UP KRIME!
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