Delist Brooks and Watts

[To the top]

We might as well also de-list Gardiner, Koschitzke and Rix as well.

Because if we de-list these 3 as well we will have NO-ONE on our list over 196cm except for the Rookie from the 2006 Under-age team of 2nd Division EFL team, Scoresby.

Let's face it, the up-shot from the Thomas years has left us depleted in certain areas because of poor list management (and an over estimation of the list and certain players).

Simply, we have no one with the height to contest with the ruck strength of just about every other team in the comp - and we concede that by getting someone 189cm to jump.

The deficiencies in our mid-field, shown up by the BOTTOM side Richmond yesterday because we could not land a tackle, we could not support by blocking and we could not support by having the additional outside runner, are accentuated by the fact that our rucks get smashed every week. And the other sides set up to take it back to support then sweep.

We had better hope that BOTH Brooks (relatively consistently) and Watts (spasmotically) can take their 2007 VFL form into the AFL in 2008 because if they can not we will be in all sorts of strife.

And we had better hope that Gardiner can stand up and lead the ruck division - with SUPPORT from Brooks and Kosi - which is where Brooks and Kosi should be - plus also contributing around the ground and particularly up forward where as yesterday again confirmed, we need 3 big forwards.

Because those 3 big forwards won a game for us we never should have won on the flow of play.

[Oh When the Saints]

Gehrig wasn't over 196cm ...

Don't see how we are losing out.

Our KPP stocks are good for the future:

Hudghton (FB, 31)
Gilbert (FB/CHB, 20)
Maguire (FB/CHB, 23)
S. Fisher (CHB, 25)

N. Riewoldt (FF/CHF, 24)
J. Koschitzke (FF/CHF, 24)
F. Watts (FF, 22) (197cm)
J. Allen (CHF, 19) (193cm)

Plus I'd imagine we would draft someone this year for either end.

The smallest there is Chips at 191cm.

Add in Rix, VanRheenen and Gardiner as ruckman all over 198cm and we have enough bigger players on our list IMO.

[vacuous space]

Gilbert (FB/CHB, 20)

I don't think Gilbo should ever go near fullback. The closer to the midfield he gets, the better. The tackling pressure he puts on the opposition, his running through traffic and his disposal are assets which would all be wasted negating an opponent's FF.

I think he should play more of a Chad Cornes/Andrew Embley/Adam Goodes type role as he matures.

[mad saint guy]

Both tearing it up for Casey today.

[To the top]

Oh when the Saints, we are in an era when flankers are 191cm - which is what Sam Fisher is. Did you see the way Richardson pushed him aside yesterday? Then just stood there and marked unopposed?

If you have the build of Maguire you can get away with CHB at 190cm.

But, as you can see, Maguire is no forward - and he is no full back.

And you would go with a ruck division of Van Reehan, Rix and Gardiner?

Well, best of luck!

And you would pick up one for either end in the draft.

Again, best of luck!

[Oh When the Saints]

What I don't get is that we have lost one key position player (Gehrig) and all of a sudden our KPP stocks are poor?

Gehrig going just means Watts (who we drafted for the position) steps up.

You can get away with lacking depth in your KP stocks - the Kangaroos have shown that this year losing Thompson, and the Swans have shown that without Hall today.

What you can't get away with in the modern game is a lack of running players, and that is our most pressing need IMO.

[vacuous space]

With a healthy side, Chips wouldn't have even taken Richo. Goose hasn't been at full fitness this year, but should be back to near his best next year, and hopefully Max can get back to full fitness. Chips is best playing a rebounding role out of defence, not taking leading forwards.

[mad saint guy]

Gardiner should be considered a possible bonus next year. I don't think we should plan to have him in the team regularly. Kosi seems to be going well, but he has missed 2, 18, 5, 8, 10, and 3 games from 2001-2007. He has missed 46 games in 6 years. You can't afford to go in without a backup option for him.

Ruck stocks for next year

Gardiner - Hasn't had a decent season since 2003. Injury-prone and might not be good enough anymore.
Koschitzke - An average tap ruckman, but good around the ground. May be needed forward and spend time in the medical room.
Rix - Emergency backup. Not good enough to have an impact at AFL level.
Brooks - Untried in the ruck at AFL level, but has starred in the VFL
Blake - Can hold his own against other small ruckmen, but gets flogged by decent ruckmen
Van Rheenen - Not ready. Isn't up to VFL standard yet

Tall forward options
Riewoldt - Star, but can't be relied to be the main goalkicker.
Koschitzke - Has had some awsome flashes of brilliance, but never put in a 4-quarter effort in the forward line. May be needed in the ruck.
Brooks - Has kicked goals at AFL level before and has the tools to be a force.
Watts - Major questions over his pace and strength. Won't be able to get away from defenders and will need to rely on taking contested marks if he is successful. But does have skill, height and is a strong mark.

Take away Brooks and Watts

Rucks
Gardinder - Destroyed by injury
Koschitzke - Needed forward
Rix - Not good enough
Blake - No good in the ruck
Van Rheenen - Not ready

Forwards
Riewoldt - Star
Koschitzke - Possible star
Allen - Not ready

[To the top]

The question is Oh When the Saints, where did we finish this year and where did we finish last year?

And why?

The deficiencies have been around for the last few years, hence Lyon recruiting M. Clarke and Gardiner.

And if you do not have good rucks and a good spine, you fall by the way side like WB.

[Oh When the Saints]

Are you claiming our spine is poor To the Top?

We finished where we did in 2006 for no other reasons than:
- Injuries
- Lack of fitness
- Lack of midfielders/running ability

We finished where we did in 2007 for no other reasons than:
- Injuries
- Lack of fitness
- Adjusting to a new coach/gamestyle
- Lack of midfielders/running ability


At no stage have we finished where we have because of our ruck stocks or our "spine" and key position players.


If you notice the list above, there are certain issues that repeat.


There are only two games in my memory since 2003 where having a top line ruckman would have made a significant difference.

One was Round 7 vs Geelong in 2006, and the other was the 2005 Preliminary Final, although only in the last quarter.

Neither of those matches were a grand final, so having an elite ruckman would not have added another trophy to our premiership Cabinet.


It would certainly have made little difference this year IMO.


Our spine was the best in the AFL from 2004-2006 IMO ... it was never our issue.

It will not be an issue next year either IMO.

[To the top]

If you keep relying on such excuses - well, you'll never achieve anything.

Injuries are a fact of life, and give opportunities.

As Lyon said, we have 16 players you could envisage playing on the last Saturday in September.

Without Gehrig, that number is now down to 15. And, without Harvey, 14.

It is where the gaps are that needs to be addressed.

[Oh When the Saints]

Even ignoring injuries, there are still issues with our lack of fitness and lack of running players.

You haven't answered my question.

Are you claiming our spine is not up to scratch?


If you are speaking in terms of the list, and asking what player type we have lacked to win a premiership over the past two seasons, I would emphatically say:

Midfielders, midfielders and midfielders.

[To the top]

Look at the thread "Fill the holes" and you will see my thoughts on the spine - and the structure.

[ausfatcat]

delist the whole team and draft 38 players this year .... comon delisting ten players does no one any good.

[Shaggy]

Even ignoring injuries, there are still issues with our lack of fitness and lack of running players.

Lack of fitness or lack of ultra marathon runners suited to being flogged up and down the field like basketballers?

[ausfatcat]

It's the game now Shaggy and players have to adapt. You need greater fitness nowdays and that's just a fact, and it's an area we have been found out in.

[The_Dud]

with Gehrig going, leaving a bigger hole than i think we might all realise, it means at least one of Gardiner, Hamill, Watts or Brooks needs to stand up next year

[Dan Warna]

mmm lets see how WCE went with minor injuries to a handful of players = slump midseason, came back with the return of players, mmm how did sydney go missing merely tadhg keneally = mid season slump, came back with returning players.

we have had bad luck with long term injuries, broken bones (lenny, watts, FG, Kosi etc)

we have had bad luck with impact injuries such as knee injuries at the like.

as for getting kids in, watts was an outstanding junior that wanted to come home, potential to be a KPP forward at 18/19, injured walking in to linto street.

as for kids not panning out, have a look at other clubs and their early draft picks.

north waited 5 seasons for mccintosh to make a regular impact, how long have brisbane been nursing Brennan before he started hitting straps after an outstanding debut, he was rubbish for about 3 seasons. Molan, wiped out with injury, Penny, wiped out with injury, hte young WCE tall taken in the first draft round that we were looking at, his name escapes me, he was wiped out with injury.

nothing you can do about talls not working out.

brooks has done everything right in the magoos if you listen to the magoos coach, Watts is 20? 21? coming back from a long term injury might be a decent ruck forward, FF at 197 cm or so.

brooks may be gone at the end of the year, and watts may be gone at the end of the year too, but then caydn beetham was gone after a couple of seasons and he was a first round draft pick too.

plenty of kids dont work out, but doesn't mean they weren't the right choice at the time.

McQualter captain state u16, captain state u18, so many coaches and trainers couldn't have been that wrong could they?

Hird went what 4th round in the draft? sam fisher another late choice? really a fair bit of the draft is a tad hit and miss with things like growth spurts and injuries.

we drafted Kosi as a 193cm CHB as he played in his first season.

came back the next year as a 197/198 player after a summer growth spurt at 18!!!! certainly not something expected?!

Goddard was listed at 187 cm or something when we took him, now he is closer to 191 cm...

we were looking at a medium pace wingman with a great kicking style, if you saw that game at the start of the season, we could have an outstanding CHF with an ability to take 200 plus marks in a season....

not a bad bonus.

unpredictable advantages and disadvantages.

watts may fade, but at the time I think we had what was potentially an instant replacement for gehrig when as a skinny 18 year old he came second in the SANFL goal kicking from 15 or 16 games.

[Shaggy]

It's the game now Shaggy and players have to adapt. You need greater fitness nowdays and that's just a fact, and it's an area we have been found out in.

Fitness and stamina are different.

RL's game plan is too extreme for players who do not have elite stamina.

Its not about adapting. You either have it or you don't. I run 1 hour a day post football days and know that I could never have played RL's game plan no matter how many pre-seasons had been put into me.

We are going to have to get rid of all our power players (and we have a fair few) if we will continue with such an extreme running game.

Its obvious why we run out of legs and our skills have fallen away. The blokes are exhausted.

[Spinner]

Gehrig wasn't over 196cm ...

Don't see how we are losing out.

Our KPP stocks are good for the future:

Hudghton (FB, 31)
Gilbert (FB/CHB, 20)
Maguire (FB/CHB, 23)
S. Fisher (CHB, 25)

N. Riewoldt (FF/CHF, 24)
J. Koschitzke (FF/CHF, 24)
F. Watts (FF, 22) (197cm)
J. Allen (CHF, 19) (193cm)

Plus I'd imagine we would draft someone this year for either end.

The smallest there is Chips at 191cm.

Add in Rix, VanRheenen and Gardiner as ruckman all over 198cm and we have enough bigger players on our list IMO.

Smallest is Maguire at 190cm.

[Otiman]

We only need to delist as many players as we want to draft.

Here is what I would do as a minimum.

Jones -> Don't retain
Harvey -> Vet. list
Hudgton -> Vet. List
Geary/Eddy -> Promote one of. (Saves salary cap by being able to cut Max and Harvs' contribution to the cap by half)
Attard -> Promote + put onto LTI list.
Raymond -> Delist
Gehrig -> Retired
M. Clarke -> Retired
Thompson -> Retired

At the start of the season we had

38 - Main List
6 - Rookie + Vet list

With these changes...

We will have.

5 - Rookie + Vet List
34 - Main List

This allows us to take 3 picks in the national draft, one in the pre-season draft, and one in the Rookie draft. Or 4 picks in the national draft, one in the Rookie Draft.

Any delistings beyond this will have to be looked at on a reward basis. e.g. Is Brooks more useful to us than a 5th round draft pick?? Anyone who is in line for delisting at this point in time should be offered a one year incentive based contract.