AFL All Australian shortlist

[redwhite&blackblood]

I think Joey had a much better year than the Dal. But in comparison to some other midfielders i wouldn't have either of them in AA contention. IMO Lockyer was unlucky not to get nominated as too was Scotland.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Good year from Joey. IMO, Dal was better. A 22 posession game from Dal is worth 25+ from most other mids, including Joey. Joey probably had more visible touches, and in his first high profile year, it's not surprising that a lot of people are rating him so high, he definately deserves kudos. IMO, Nick Dal Santo was St. Kilda's best midfielder across 2007 though, while taking the best opposition taggers.

I really doubt that dal santo was St Kilda's best mid-fielder - I think his repuation carried him through.. What an over-statement to say that a 22 posession game from Dal is worth 25+ from most other mid-fielders..

My money's on Joey to win the club's b&f (i think either Riewoldt or Montagna would be favourite) and surely he jf he won the b&f would you have to agree that he was our best!!

Purely on the math, Dal was around 80% efficiency, Joey around 70% (which is about average for AFL mids). 10% of 22 is 2.2 so he's already up to 24, and then you consider where Dal gets the ball, how much of his own ball he has to win, that he's being followed game in and game out, and you start to build up a picture. Disagree if you want to, it's certainly subjective, but I think if anything it's an understatement to say a 22 possession game from Dal is worth 25 from most other mids.

On the b&f, yeah, of course if he wins it'll speak well of him- but I've argued with other on this before, I don't really rate club b&f's as a player rating system beyond the winner... they're much too tilted towards the guys who play the most games (not that this isn't valuable in and of itself) either in visible roles (Roo, Ball), or in coaches roles (i.e. Baker). I expect Montagna to finish behind (funnily enough) Nick Reiwoldt, Sam Fisher, and Nick Dal Santo. I certainly don't think that if someone else were to sneak in front of Joey that it'd cheapen what has to have been the best improvement (IMO of course) from anyone on the Saints list including Fisher.

[Joffa Burns]

Roo would be the only Saint to feature IMO and the only one to deserve selection this year.

[Oh When the Saints]

When I said that Joey should have made it ahead of Dal, I wasn't saying that Dal Santo had a poor year ... he has been very good for us.

I just think Montagna has performed better than Dal Santo ... I disagree that Dal "does more" with the ball ... Joey would lead in I/50's and leads in running bounces, and that sort of run and carry, and forward delivery, is important for us.

Anyway, Dal won't get in ... Rooey and Chips will.

[Spinner]

When I said that Joey should have made it ahead of Dal, I wasn't saying that Dal Santo had a poor year ... he has been very good for us.

I just think Montagna has performed better than Dal Santo ... I disagree that Dal "does more" with the ball ... Joey would lead in I/50's and leads in running bounces, and that sort of run and carry, and forward delivery, is important for us.

Anyway, Dal won't get in ... Rooey and Chips will.

Whatever dude.


I dont know what game you watch....BUT Whenever Dal gets a possesssion it ALWAYS gets to a teammate.

You really need to cut this crap of solely using numbers like "running bounces" in your arguements because they make them sound really cheap.

[Oh When the Saints]

Montagna is a beautiful kick ... have look at his delivery to Riewoldt and Gehrig against Fremantle.

On the other hand, watch Dal Santo panic and turn it over against the Eagles ... very uncharacteristic, but he gave it up a couple of times.


Using evidence is a valid indicator of performance ... it's better to back your argument up with a stat like running bounces ... proves that your own observations are correct.

[vacuous space]

Montagna is a beautiful kick ... have look at his delivery to Riewoldt and Gehrig against Fremantle.

On the other hand, watch Dal Santo panic and turn it over against the Eagles ... very uncharacteristic, but he gave it up a couple of times.

Dal Santo had 30 less disposals than Montagna. He also had 31 less clangers. He averaged half as many clangers per game. So don't try and pretend that Joey was more effective. The stats just don't support that.

[Oh When the Saints]

Dal Santo also had a lot less kicks per game and many more handballs ... pretty hard to make clangers by hand, but a lot easier to make mistakes when you are kicking under pressure.

From the matches I have watched, I see no evidence that Montagna's skill level or disposal efficiency has prevented him from being a worthy AA nominee ahead of Dal Santo in 2007 ...

[osama milne laden]

What?

No Joel Bowden????

[vacuous space]

Dal Santo also had a lot less kicks per game and many more handballs ... pretty hard to make clangers by hand, but a lot easier to make mistakes when you are kicking under pressure.

Dal's kick-to-handball ratio was 3:2. He was hardly handball happy. He also won a lot more of his possessions in contested situations than Joey did. So if anyone was 'under pressure', it was Dal. And he had about an 82% kicking efficiency, which was among the best in the league. As Bam said, Joey's was a lot closer to 70%. If you do the math, they had about the same number of effective kicks, and Joey had twice as many clangers.

From the matches I have watched, I see no evidence that Montagna's skill level or disposal efficiency has prevented him from being a worthy AA nominee ahead of Dal Santo in 2007 ...

Joey's had a tremendous season, but if he wants to be AA, he's going to have to work on his delivery. There are guys who have won more ball and used it better than Joey has. The AA selectors aren't going to go for somebody who's among the leaders in the clanger count.

[The_Dud]

Dal is easily the best kick under pressure in our team, probably best kick overall

he wins much more contested football that montagna, i can barely remember montagna winning any contested football, he was more a reciever of the clearence, where he could then run and bounce it towards our forward line

i still rate Dals year better than montagnas

but by Dals standards, his year was ok, and by Montagnas standards, his year was excellent

[terry smith rules]

for the millionth time I will ask the question , how does dustin fletcher get so highly rated

always tries to play on the third best forward and when he does get the best inevitably gets creamed

totally over rated

don't even start me on his tribunal record

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Dal Santo also had a lot less kicks per game and many more handballs ... pretty hard to make clangers by hand, but a lot easier to make mistakes when you are kicking under pressure.

From the matches I have watched, I see no evidence that Montagna's skill level or disposal efficiency has prevented him from being a worthy AA nominee ahead of Dal Santo in 2007 ...

I was unclear, I apologise. I was referring to kicking efficiency, not disposal efficiency.

Checked the footy record from R22 last night. League average k eff. (for mids) is 73.7... Joey's k eff is 73.9, Dal's is 82.2. Joey averages 3 more kicks a game. Dal wins about 10% more of his ball in contested situations, and generally there is a dropoff in k eff relating to contested possession.

I'd go out on a limb and bet that his kicking efficiency will be turn out to be top 10 among AFL mids when the numbers come out for those of us who don't subscribe to champion data.

Obviously, I'm missing a rounds worth of data in those #s, but Dal's kicked at that level for years, so I'd be surprised if there was massive change.

In the light of compromise, let me say that when an argument for who has had a better year is built so heavily on numbers it leans to what numbers you value. While obviously I'm comfortable that my argument is supported, if you rate running bounces more highly than kicking efficiency and contested posession %, I am willing to concede you'd pick a faster & (possibly) more exciting AA team than I would... even if I bet mine would cream yours on the scoreboard:)