E-mail from Archie RE Rookies

[saint66au]

The poster who allegedly heard straight from Geary's mouth that he had been delisted was Brooksys_Babe aka Troys_Gal. Pretty hard thing to misinterpret if you ask me

I'm sure an apology will be forthcoming..???? as well as an assurance to everyone (including Jarryd) that she wont be going under the name Gearys_Gal in 2008 and therefore ensuring his delisting at seasons end

[vacuous space]

Lenny Hayes, by your definition, is a "poor" kick.

Inside mids tend to have a lower kicking efficiency. Lenny's has been consistently over 80% for most of his career. His kicking isn't poor by anyone's definition.

I agree that Jones' skills are bad, but Andrew Thompson played 200 games with a kicking efficiency that was around 70%.

Thompson was at or around the 80% mark even in the later stages of his career. It was only in 06 that his efficiency started to really slip. Guys like McGough and Powell, who really struggled with their kicking were still a long way ahead of where Jones is at. If he works at his kicking, Jones might get to point where he's at a passable level for AFL footy, but he's never going to get close to what Thommo was.

[rexy]

In all fairness to Jones, is it about dramatically improving your skills or is it about slightly improving your skills and dramatically improving you decision making? If Jones can improve decision making then he wont look to have made as many skill errors IMO. What I mean is kicking to advantage rather than pinpoint passing, knowing when to give the ball off by hand to a better kick of the ball or even just knowing when to push it forward in to a vacant area or contest that gives your side a chance rather than turning it over would all see his kicking efficiencylook better. This can all be learnt surely.

[Oh When the Saints]

Fair enough vacuous.

Great points too rexy.



I thought Jones showed enough pre-collarbone to be retained.

Look how much Rooey struggled after doing his collarbone ... it makes it harder for the players.

On a one year contract on the minimum wage, Jones will be as good at AFL level as the best of the best from the VFL/SANFL/WAFL etc.

[mad saint guy]

Below 75% is considered very poor at AFL level, while above 80% is good and above 85% excellent. Jones is at about 51%.

Geez, a whole 10% between poor and excellent.
Lenny Hayes, by your definition, is a "poor" kick.

I agree that Jones' skills are bad, but Andrew Thompson played 200 games with a kicking efficiency that was around 70%.

This is mainly coming from summaries and stats from AFL Prospectus. You can argue to Champion Data if you don't agree with their system, but I personally think it is a very good measure of a player's worth (although loose half backs are over valued). Any outside midfielder who has a kicking efficiency in the low 70's is considered to be a poor kick, while high 70's is pretty good and a bit above 80 is usually elite.

Mark McGough generally hovered around 68-72%, while Jones is below 51%. I really don't understand how people can rate him.

[F_Q_F]

How many teams had rookies elevated during the season?
I know that Collingwood had Marty Clarke that did well for them but did other teams have rookies that had a significant influence on games?

Jones' kicking is very raw, however he is in his first year and probably lacks the confidence, I mean we have all seen how players on debut react to the pressure of the AFL (I think Raph Clarkes first kick went straight into the man on the mark). Jones is probably too harshly judged as we compare him to Attard who has already spent time on an AFL list.

He isnt the most skilled player in the side but I dont think he is as bad as he has shown us so far. Next year will be a big year for him to say the least.

[mad saint guy]

How many teams had rookies elevated during the season?
I know that Collingwood had Marty Clarke that did well for them but did other teams have rookies that had a significant influence on games?

I did a bit of reasearch on this a while ago and I think there was something like 23 rookies elevated during the 2007 season.

J.Attard, M.Clarke, A.Corrie, J.King, M.Campbell and S.Cox would be the best performed of the elevated rookies.

[Oh When the Saints]

Clinton Jones is in the best 700 footballers in Australia.

He was the third or fourth best player not on an AFL list in Western Australia in 2006.

He is quick, wins the footy and is prepared to gut run. His marking is also quite reasonable for a guy his size, whilst he slots a few goals.


They are his strengths.

[mad saint guy]

He is quick, wins the footy and is prepared to gut run. His marking is also quite reasonable for a guy his size, whilst he slots a few goals.

They are his strengths.

While I'm not saying you are wrong about his marking, I haven't seen anything to suggest that it is above average for any 183cm outside midfieder. Wouldn't say he is much of a goalkicker either. Kicked 1 goal in his 6 games for St Kilda even though he spent most of them as a half forward. He did kick 3 goals from his 6 games for Casey (was named in the best twice).

Strengths
Pace
Fitness
Ball-winning
Work rate

Weaknesses
Disposal
Composure under pressure
One-sided
Decision-making
Scope for improvement

In the end I suppose it all comes down to what you look for in a footballer. The number one priority for me is kicking. Giant ruckmen and negating key defenders can sometimes get away with poor disposal, but otherwise it is an absolute necessity. Outside midfielders or half forwards in particular need good disposal if they are of any worth to the team. Disposal, footy smarts and fitness are the three things I think any quality player has to have. If you can't kick the ball then there is no point in getting it.

Some people obviously have a different view and believe that having a good work rate and athletisism is enough for an AFL player to make it. Sydney came away with a premiership from a team of hard-working GOPs who stick to a game plan and Lyon seems to be bringing these kind of players into our team.

If we win a flag I don't care if it is from a team of silky-skilled natural footballers who take a heap of risks or if it comes from a team of 187cm athletes who restrict the opposition's opportunities while running them into the ground. But I do think that we would have a better chance of winning a flag if we stuck to players with natural skill rather than natural runners.

[Oh When the Saints]

Fair enough.

I don't share your view about kicking skills ... they are important, but IMO the ability to run is now more important in AFL football.

[Armoooo]

Am I the only one here who thinks that Jones' pace is overrated?
He didn't seem that much faster than the average player to justify him getting a game to me...

[SaintBot]

Am I the only one here who thinks that Jones' pace is overrated?
He didn't seem that much faster than the average player to justify him getting a game to me...

it depends what pace we are talking about...

players can be super quick on a track
but put them on the field and they can just be 'too quick' in that they are always running past the play, therefor that puts them behind

vice-versa


but yes, Jones' onfield pace is over-rated

[mad saint guy]

Am I the only one here who thinks that Jones' pace is overrated?
He didn't seem that much faster than the average player to justify him getting a game to me...

No doubt that he can run a very quick 50m sprint at training, but I agree that he doesn't use it in a game. Dal Santo (who makes quick decisions and knows what is happening around him) is much more likely to break the lines than Jones.

[ausfatcat]

Buckets Loewe couldn't hit the side of a barn in his first couple of years senior footy, ended up being one of the most reliable kicks in the club.

One of the first games I can remember watching was the saints against Melbourne in the early nineties, the only thing I remember is Loewe missing a shot from ten metres out and right in front.

[RBnW]

Am I the only one here who thinks that Jones' pace is overrated?
He didn't seem that much faster than the average player to justify him getting a game to me...

How can pace be overrated...in todays game if you havnt got pace you are overlooked, over run, run off, cant break the lines, cant tackle but apart from that....its overrated
Jones last year until he did his collarbone was elecrtic, great pressure and got plenty of it....you cant play the game without pace, especially not at the TD and we always go to Subi twice & the Gabba so there is 18 games he could be handy in....pace = space.....

[bobmurray]

I hope Ross rookies at least one or two talls ...

We need some backup height in the squad.......

[saintly]

hey thats great news.

that means the saints will only pick 3 players in the national draft, unless they delist more!

would that be correct?

we have until 31 October to lodge our first list lodgement before the draft.

I wouldn't mind another couple delistings, but 4 delistings + 5 retirements is still good and necessary turnover!

Out of curiosity, who else would you liek to see delisted?

I think the only player who may be out of contract is Mini so he could be the only other delisting.

from the sticky re contract listing it appears that Mini has one more year on his contract to go.

[Armoooo]

Am I the only one here who thinks that Jones' pace is overrated?
He didn't seem that much faster than the average player to justify him getting a game to me...

How can pace be overrated...in todays game if you havnt got pace you are overlooked, over run, run off, cant break the lines, cant tackle but apart from that....its overrated
Jones last year until he did his collarbone was elecrtic, great pressure and got plenty of it....you cant play the game without pace, especially not at the TD and we always go to Subi twice & the Gabba so there is 18 games he could be handy in....pace = space.....

I'm not saying that pace is overrated, i am saying that Jones' pace is overrated, i don't think he is as quick on the field as people make him to be, and I would hadly say 14, 9 and 9 disposals a game is getting plenty of it.. The guy is almost 24, he is older than Dal Santo, honestly how much improving does the guy have left in him...
I'm not impressed that he has been promoted I just don't rate him and doubt I ever will, I would rather we stuck with Birss than going to Jones...

[CURLY]

He is quick, wins the footy and is prepared to gut run. His marking is also quite reasonable for a guy his size, whilst he slots a few goals.

They are his strengths.

While I'm not saying you are wrong about his marking, I haven't seen anything to suggest that it is above average for any 183cm outside midfieder. Wouldn't say he is much of a goalkicker either. Kicked 1 goal in his 6 games for St Kilda even though he spent most of them as a half forward. He did kick 3 goals from his 6 games for Casey (was named in the best twice).

Strengths
Pace
Fitness
Ball-winning
Work rate

Weaknesses
Disposal
Composure under pressure
One-sided
Decision-making
Scope for improvement

In the end I suppose it all comes down to what you look for in a footballer. The number one priority for me is kicking. Giant ruckmen and negating key defenders can sometimes get away with poor disposal, but otherwise it is an absolute necessity. Outside midfielders or half forwards in particular need good disposal if they are of any worth to the team. Disposal, footy smarts and fitness are the three things I think any quality player has to have. If you can't kick the ball then there is no point in getting it.

Some people obviously have a different view and believe that having a good work rate and athletisism is enough for an AFL player to make it. Sydney came away with a premiership from a team of hard-working GOPs who stick to a game plan and Lyon seems to be bringing these kind of players into our team.

If we win a flag I don't care if it is from a team of silky-skilled natural footballers who take a heap of risks or if it comes from a team of 187cm athletes who restrict the opposition's opportunities while running them into the ground. But I do think that we would have a better chance of winning a flag if we stuck to players with natural skill rather than natural runners.[/qu

Jones may only need a few more games in the seniors to adapt to the pace and with that his disposal may settle down. The jump into senior football in ANY competition can take some players longer than others how many players have you seen dominate reserves football only to look like they cant play once they make seniors. Just give him time hopefully his disposal settles down.

[Solar]

A couple of things on the rookies,

good decision on retaining attard on the rookie list, a lot better then wasting a senior contract on a kid that might not come back in 2008.

Congrats to geary. Smart lithe quick and skillful winger/HBF who uses the ball well. Personally, as I have mentioned in earlier threads, I would give both geary and howard the challenge of taking on the running small back position. Give both as much game time in the preseason and I would suggest geary would step up and be a suprise debut in round 1 2008. This would allow gram to move into the midfield, which seems to be the plan when looking at how RL moved Fish and gram into the midfield for the last game against the tigers.

On jones, the main problem with his disposal is that his decision making is shocking. He is reasonably quick, good hands and strong body. Can gut run and knows where to go to get the footy. But needs to go with the first option and be an old fashioned kick it long type of player. Good example was against the tigers when he streamed forward to the 50, has ample time to put the ball to roo's advantage but instead kicked it to the advantage of the defender.

If I was coach, I would encourage him to work on his tackling, hard ball gets and running to position. Then tell him that when he gets the ball near the 50 he either goes for goal or top of the square. Will never be a dal santo or ball when it comes to spoting up forwards, but as a hard tackling/hard ball gaining forward he could be handy.

Just don't think young man

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Below 75% is considered very poor at AFL level, while above 80% is good and above 85% excellent. Jones is at about 51%.

Geez, a whole 10% between poor and excellent.

What's that for a midfielder .... 2 more kicks that hit a target during a match!!!


A whole 2 kicks !!!

I don't expect to see Jones unless something goes wrong in '08, and I expect him to be delisted at years end. I like cheering for him, he's gotten where he is the hard way, but at the very least, the numbers are against him.

2 targets hit a game... given that in the midfield average eff. is between 70-75% year to year, in 3 disposals we can expect most mids to hit that number. when your eff drops to 50, it takes 4... so we can honestly say that just to match the kicking of a Shane Birss (who was also woeful, but at 67% at least hit the 2/3rds), needs 3 more disposals for every 10 Birss gets just to do the same job... and that's ignoring the rebound from the turnovers...

Take a look and you'll find that the guys who finish top 5% and bottom 5% tend to stay good/bad year to year. A guy may have an off year (i.e. Hazelby), but while we'd expect Jones to improve a bit as he adjusts to the speed of the game, but it's a big hill to climb just to get to average.

Until then, his speed and pressure simply don't make up for the liability he is with the ball.

[Eastern]

Back on topic !!

Congrats to Archie for responding to the email request for info. My experience is that the club is and has been excellent at responding to emails !!