The Bully and the Devil in the blue suit

[saintsRrising]

This was written by The Peanut on WOM. (.a great read IMO...but admittedly that is probably colored by my take on things...)

The Bully and the devil in the blue suit
by 'The Peanut'

There are a few schools of thought regarding Grant Thomas as an AFL coach when comparing his effectiveness with other coaches and the current St Kilda model. Some supporters believe him to be a prophet of the modern game and there are others who believe that he wasted the clubs chances of going all the way.
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The variations of the these generalisations include myself, who was pleased with his doggedness, people management skills and the new ideas that he bought to the club but am not happy that he overlooked the importance of ruckmen, that he wasn't serious enough in sorting the injury problems and his controlling nature.

I respected Grant Thomas when he first became the coach because the Saints had been repeatedly stepped-on by the AFL, other clubs and the media for so long it was refreshing that someone of his stature was unwavering in supporting the club and not at all afraid to speak his mind - he was fearless in his approach.

His apparent vision of using corporate principles and his determination to bring his beloved club out of the dungeons was the breath of fresh air. He wasn't well known in AFL circles and was persecuted by the press for the path he took to obtain the job, his limited coaching credentials at the top level and his obvious contempt of the hallowed media writers.

GT inherited a wild mixture of prospective superstars, great experienced players and a lower to middle tier bunch. It wasn't really 'a team' as we know it because it was put together by a variety of coaches and mixed with a cluster of low draft picks, which we inherited because we were the bottom side. He followed a coach that was so disinterested in manufacturing success for the club that he took his assistants to the Gold Coast to play golf, and this was the coach that GT had a strong hand in selecting.

Lucky for us Grant Thomas and Rod Butterss realised that their decision was 'a shocker' and did something about it. They threw a million dollars out the back door with Malcolm Blight and GT dressed himself in the coach's clobber and said 'I can do better than that myself'. It wasn't a real bad call at the time because in a short period of time we could see that he could do better than a disinterested coach, but unfortunately he later forgot that he also inferred that he would stand aside when he had given all he could.

His people skills in developing a solid close-knit team were apparent and he amazed his peers and the press by keeping all of our young emerging stars, which was nothing short of a 'miracle' when other clubs were offering them so much more money. Probably one of the side effects of his methods was that he appeared to become far too close to the young impressionable players, which was problematic when shown the door.

GT's initiatives in elite AFL football that include his immoderate pre-season camps and his corporate speak and analyses have now become the norm at other clubs. His understanding of developing the maturity of individual players though the camps, their geographic locations, the player's introductions to world leading sportsmen and his general professional expectations of each player are now evident in the overall culture at the club.

His limited respect for ruckmen, the lack of positively developing rookies and second tier players and the decision making throughout the draft process was inept when compared to some of the other clubs. Our ineffective ruck work did teach our midfielders how to find their own ball but one only muses on what might have been if they received an occasional ball in their arms before the opposition backline were prepared for a quick forward entry. In hindsight I see our inadequate development of rookies as an outright disgrace and almost vulnerable to legal action by young players who were picked up in the draft and virtually left to their own means in the VFL and consequently delisted as 'hacks'.

I and many other supporters loved the way GT wore his heart on his sleave and demonstrated his love for the club and his desire for success, but this probably masked the scrutiny that hindsight now provides.

Grant Thomas and Rod Butterss aired their private indifferences in the media to the detriment of the club. The journalists, who originally held them in contempt, eventually embraced them for providing easy pathways to a headline story. The club is now expected to pay GT out of his contract twelve months after he was sacked. The current club management is honouring a hazy contractual provision that Rod Butterss put to Grant Thomas without notice as he was publicly pushed out the door.

Ross Lyon inherited a squad and a club that was generally developed and improved by the RB/GT period and although he is proving to be a professional AFL coach, he would neither have the necessary finances or the core group of first-class players at his fingertips if it weren't for his predecessors.

I am not from the 'anti' or 'pro' school of thought regarding Grant Thomas and Rod Butterss, they were a particular part of our history and this is the present time, which will also be judged in hindsight, but one thing is certain - we won't forget them in a hurry.
03 December 2007

[skeptic]

that's fantastic... i really like that article.

It's really worth remembering exactly how far behind the 8 ball we were when GT and RB came to the club...

no players, money, facilities, respect etc

we're not there yet by a long way but are heading in the right direction IMO

[Mr Magic]

A pretty good effort from Peanut. A clear, concise and seemingly unbiased account of the pros and cons of the RB/GT era.

[rodgerfox]

He's gone.

Move on.

[plumtire]

Yes a good article alright..but how long will it take before a "certain person" sees the chance for another rant about Thomas and we're off on the usual five-page thread of abuse etc? good on you peanuts anyway!

[saintsRrising]

He's gone.

Move on.

No The Peanut is still alive and well

[stinger]

some truth in the story...some misinterpretations and other comments simply not true..but...all in all not a bad read....but mainly from one person's point of view.....as an example.......it is simply not true that grant forgot his promises and refused to stand aside....in fact he tried to recruit lyon as our coach.......apart from him , her didn't see anyone else on the horizon who could or would do a better job than grant was doing...don't take my word for it...ask ross

[saintly]

some truth in the story...some misinterpretations and other comments simply not true..but...all in all not a bad read....but mainly from one person's point of view.....as an example.......it is simply not true that grant forgot his promises and refused to stand aside....in fact he tried to recruit lyon as our coach.......apart from him , her didn't see anyone else on the horizon who could or would do a better job than grant was doing...don't take my word for it...ask ross

nah he tried to recruit ross as an assistant.

[saintsRrising]

some truth in the story...some misinterpretations and other comments simply not true..but...all in all not a bad read....but mainly from one person's point of view.....as an example.......it is simply not true that grant forgot his promises and refused to stand aside....in fact he tried to recruit lyon as our coach.......apart from him , her didn't see anyone else on the horizon who could or would do a better job than grant was doing...don't take my word for it...ask ross

nah he tried to recruit ross as an assistant.

agreed..

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 72,00.html

Ross Lyon is Saints new coach
11 October 2006 Herald Sun
The former coach confirmed he had tried to lure Lyon from Sydney to Moorabbin a year ago. He made a two-hour pitch to Lyon at his Brighton home soon after the season, finally offering him a senior role.

Lyon called him a few days later to say he felt honour-bound to complete a commitment to the Swans and a personal commitment to coach Paul Roos.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

GT wasnt goint to step aside for anyone he coached the team to back to back prelims he felt he was the man to lead us to the flag he was never going to step aside when he got that close himself .

i agree with Rf sentiments tho
he is gone now and the future is much more interesting to look to then the past

[saintwill66]

"Thomas said in his post-match press conference the defence and ruck needed bolstering, with both departments brave but just short of class."

The above is a quote from GT's press conference following the 2004 prelim final loss to Port Adelaide. It was a game that the Saints could have won in the dying minutes when Guerra was running on to the running ball heading for goal inside 50 and failed to put ball to boot..........so near, yet so far!

It was following this match that I really believed that the Saints would make it in 2005, particularly as GT had indicated that a ruckman and key defender was all that was needed to make them genuine premiership contenders.

But as we all know, the Saints recruited Cain Ackland as a ruckman who turned out to be a dud, and the rest is history.

I enjoyed reading your summary of the Butterrs/Thomas era Peanut - well thought out and well reasoned. But as far as I'm concerned, history will judge the RB/Gt era as one where irrespective of the off-field management success, on-field the Saints lost 2 seasons of "Golden Opportunity", and the buck has to stop with Messrs Butterrs and Thomas.

[stinger]

some truth in the story...some misinterpretations and other comments simply not true..but...all in all not a bad read....but mainly from one person's point of view.....as an example.......it is simply not true that grant forgot his promises and refused to stand aside....in fact he tried to recruit lyon as our coach.......apart from him , her didn't see anyone else on the horizon who could or would do a better job than grant was doing...don't take my word for it...ask ross

nah he tried to recruit ross as an assistant.

agreed..

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 72,00.html

Ross Lyon is Saints new coach
11 October 2006 Herald Sun
The former coach confirmed he had tried to lure Lyon from Sydney to Moorabbin a year ago. He made a two-hour pitch to Lyon at his Brighton home soon after the season, finally offering him a senior role.

Lyon called him a few days later to say he felt honour-bound to complete a commitment to the Swans and a personal commitment to coach Paul Roos.

the senior coaches job was going to be given to lyon......i have that from the man himself.......

[Richter]

What RodgerFox said.

[bigcarl]

as far as I'm concerned, history will judge the RB/Gt era as one where ... the Saints lost 2 seasons of "Golden Opportunity"

it's all a matter of perspective. if you look at the RB/GT era in the context of the club's largely miserable history, what they achieved was spectacular and nothing short of amazing.

true we did have "golden opportunity" in those seasons ... but premierships aren't easily won and you've got to weigh "opportunity" against the reality of a wretched run with injuries.

also the fact that a lot of our young guns ... roo, kosi, dal, ball, bj, goose etc ... were just boys at the time, barely out of their teens.

they simply weren't ready ... but performed admirably despite the crushing weight of expectation they must have felt.

ultimately (and hardly surprisingly imo) we fell to fitter and physically and mentally more mature teams.

imo we can win it in 2008 if RL can get them playing with the same spirit and purpose GT had them showing back then ... if the injury gods smile on us for once.

the boys have become men ... just a pity for both of them that neither GT nor RB is there to reap the rewards. the foundations of this team were laid by both men and if we win it in 2008 both should be feted.

[saintsRrising]

as far as I'm concerned, history will judge the RB/Gt era as one where ... the Saints lost 2 seasons of "Golden Opportunity"

it's all a matter of perspective. if you look at the RB/GT era in the context of the club's largely miserable history, what they achieved was spectacular and nothing short of amazing.

true we did have "golden opportunity" in those seasons ... but premierships aren't easily won and you've got to weigh "opportunity" against the reality of a wretched run with injuries.

also the fact that a lot of our young guns ... roo, kosi, dal, ball, bj, goose etc ... were just boys at the time, barely out of their teens.

they simply weren't ready ... but performed admirably despite the crushing weight of expectation they must have felt.

ultimately (and hardly surprisingly imo) we fell to fitter and physically and mentally more mature teams.

imo we can win it in 2008 if RL can get them playing with the same spirit and purpose GT had them showing back then ... if the injury gods smile on us for once.

the boys have become men ... just a pity for both of them that neither GT nor RB is there to reap the rewards. the foundations of this team were laid by both men and if we win it in 2008 both should be feted.

Don't forget Waldron....

Waldron, RB, GT and others like Kellet put the building blocks in place and deserve credit and recognition for this....some by skill and vision and some by pure luck (ieThe AFL bringing in the Priority pick rule, Watson's poor coaching and the Blues cheating and penalty where all about GT being in the right spot and the right time). Skill in that they convinced several star players and several other capable players to join the Saints on the back of luring Blight.


RB and GT's mistake was in having GT try and do a job beyond what he was capable of.

Watson feel on his sword when he realised he was not good enough.


GT the day of his sacking stated that he believed he was still the best man for the job.

[bob__71]

Thats some crafty fishing there....but aint you sick of catching the same fish SR

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I enjoyed reading your summary of the Butterrs/Thomas era Peanut - well thought out and well reasoned. But as far as I'm concerned, history will judge the RB/Gt era as one where irrespective of the off-field management success, on-field the Saints lost 2 seasons of "Golden Opportunity", and the buck has to stop with Messrs Butterrs and Thomas.

A lot of this sentiment seems to exist... that they did a fair bit, but because they couldn't go all the way, their tenure was a failure.

I think it says a lot about us as fans, our hunger for a premiership, and perhaps even implies we expect/fear another fallout ala '99, when two years after contesting a premiership, we were back in the tall grass.

personally, I suspect that aided by finally making good on the draft, once the emotion many have invested in RB and GT passes, their tenure will be considered successful, marking the beginning of a decade of competitiveness - even should we not take a premiership, and if we do, then those two men deserve some credit. The core and culture of our club have changed in the last decade, and the place is much more professional and oriented around winning and success... and while they can't take full credit for the list, this is the contribution which I believe will remain in years to come.

Neither was a messiah, both are/were entirely human and flawed, making mistakes along with their successes... but the club is better today for the contributions they made, and I honestly believe that one way or another, once the passion they still inspire settles, that's how their tenure will be remembered.

[saintsRrising]

some truth in the story...some misinterpretations and other comments simply not true..but...all in all not a bad read....but mainly from one person's point of view.....as an example.......it is simply not true that grant forgot his promises and refused to stand aside....in fact he tried to recruit lyon as our coach.......apart from him , her didn't see anyone else on the horizon who could or would do a better job than grant was doing...don't take my word for it...ask ross

nah he tried to recruit ross as an assistant.

agreed..

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 72,00.html

Ross Lyon is Saints new coach
11 October 2006 Herald Sun
The former coach confirmed he had tried to lure Lyon from Sydney to Moorabbin a year ago. He made a two-hour pitch to Lyon at his Brighton home soon after the season, finally offering him a senior role.

Lyon called him a few days later to say he felt honour-bound to complete a commitment to the Swans and a personal commitment to coach Paul Roos.

the senior coaches job was going to be given to lyon......i have that from the man himself.......

Interesting.

Head coaches are hired and fired by the Board and no other. Head coaches do not have the authority to offer their job to another, though like Watson they can step aside.

Head Coaches do however tend to hire their own assistants...though even then require Board approval.. I rember that the media reported that their was afalling out between Gt and RB after Gt hired Freos' fitness guy without authority.


Are you saying that the Board offered Ross the job 12 months earlier?


For GT to have offered the head coaching job to another he would have had to have the not just the agreement of the Board but their blessing.

Was this the case?

If so then with the Board having agreed that Ross was a better head coach than GT is it not surprisng that GT was sacked 12 months later....for if Ross was acknowledged to be better then it is clear that there were other assistants about who would also be better.

Or are you stating that GT acted without authority to offer something that he had no authority to do?



I do remember reading a media report at the time of GT's sacking that he had offered RL an assistants job with some prospect that there might be a pathway to head coach. From memory there was some talk (and I cannot remember the wording now) of being a role more senior than a normal assistant with a match day role...





In whichever case it is....it remains the fact that a year on from that that GT was still in the position and on the day of his sacking he stated that he believed he was the best person for the job......which would seem strange if he had in fact offered the head coach to Ross as an immediate head coach 12 months prior.


All this in my opinion (and yes others disagree) when the reigns should have been handed over 3 years prior as GT in my opinion never had the total skill set required to be a head coach. Yes he had some of the skills, but not the full set required.

[n1ck]

I do remember reading a media report at the time of GT's sacking that he had offered RL an assistants job with some prospect that there might be a pathway to head coach. From memory there was some talk (and I cannot remember the wording now) of being a role more senior than a normal assistant with a match day role...

That is what I have heard the story to be, from a number of people close to the club.

[saintsRrising]

I enjoyed reading your summary of the Butterrs/Thomas era Peanut - well thought out and well reasoned. But as far as I'm concerned, history will judge the RB/Gt era as one where irrespective of the off-field management success, on-field the Saints lost 2 seasons of "Golden Opportunity", and the buck has to stop with Messrs Butterrs and Thomas.

A lot of this sentiment seems to exist... that they did a fair bit, but because they couldn't go all the way, their tenure was a failure.

I think it says a lot about us as fans, our hunger for a premiership, and perhaps even implies we expect/fear another fallout ala '99, when two years after contesting a premiership, we were back in the tall grass.

personally, I suspect that aided by finally making good on the draft, once the emotion many have invested in RB and GT passes, their tenure will be considered successful, marking the beginning of a decade of competitiveness - even should we not take a premiership, and if we do, then those two men deserve some credit. The core and culture of our club have changed in the last decade, and the place is much more professional and oriented around winning and success... and while they can't take full credit for the list, this is the contribution which I believe will remain in years to come.

Neither was a messiah, both are/were entirely human and flawed, making mistakes along with their successes... but the club is better today for the contributions they made, and I honestly believe that one way or another, once the passion they still inspire settles, that's how their tenure will be remembered.

Well said.

Failure is a harsh word.


IMO they did not fail as they have turned arabble into a competitive club.


They have changed expectations of the club and of supporters and lifted the bar.

Winning a match was once considered a great success and reason to wildly celebrate.

However both GT and RB....and Waldron and others have now raised our expectations where we are more focused on winning flag asa measure of ultimate success.


GT and RB coming back to the club was agreat thing for the Saints....and this should be recognised and celebrated.

However just because what they initially did was good for the club does not mean that all they did was necessarily good for the club.

However IMO both stayed on too long (others disagree)........and it is human nature to do so.....just look at Howard and the Liberals for an example of someone that should have stepped aside and who did not.


GT was the right man at the right time.........but he also became the wrong man at the wrong time as well.

[Oh When the Saints]

My understanding (from someone who was at St Kilda and is now involved with another club) is that Thomas approached Lyon in 2005 and asked him to come down for an arrangment similar to the Parkin/Brittain one, where GT would still be senior coach but Lyon would do a bulk of the work.

RL knocked it back, GT didn't try to get anyone else in the same role and the rest is history ...

[rodgerfox]

Waldron, RB, GT and others like Kellet put the building blocks in place and deserve credit and recognition for this....some by skill and vision and some by pure luck (ieThe AFL bringing in the Priority pick rule, Watson's poor coaching and the Blues cheating and penalty where all about GT being in the right spot and the right time). Skill in that they convinced several star players and several other capable players to join the Saints on the back of luring Blight.

I don't understand what the above means.

Due to the above we received Goddard, Roo, Kosi, Ball, and X Clarke.

Goddard was a child.

Roo a star. Although in 06 was severely hampered with injury.

Kosi barely played.

Ball had one good year until crippled with injury. And even in that good year was injured at the most important part.

X Clarke - hardly a factor in any form of 'success' we may have had.


So I don't understand how any Saints supporter who knows the facts about our injury predicament can give the draft any credit for our performances.

Ignorant and uninformed opposition supporters claim the lucky draft picks was the reason for us being awesome on the field. But for Saints supporters to roll out the same nonsense is disappointing.

If we had any form of luck, we'd have another 2 flags by now. Perhaps even 3.

[rodgerfox]

GT the day of his sacking stated that he believed he was still the best man for the job.

Based on our performance last year, he may well have been right.

[stinger]

My understanding (from someone who was at St Kilda and is now involved with another club) is that Thomas approached Lyon in 2005 and asked him to come down for an arrangment similar to the Parkin/Brittain one, where GT would still be senior coach but Lyon would do a bulk of the work.

RL knocked it back, GT didn't try to get anyone else in the same role and the rest is history ...

something like that for starters with lyon eventually taking over with thomas staying in a mentor role like sheedy was proposing to be for harvey at freo......


trouble around here is that some will never accept anything positive about thomas.....i don't know whether thomas had permission to do what he said he did...the thought that he was acting without authority never entered my mind and i was never rude enough to ask thomas that question......you can take it though that grant knew what he was doing ....ross said no...not because he didn't want the job..but at that stage he had commitments and unfinished business with the swans...ross isn't the type of person to walk out on anybody....i am sticking to my original comments...the peanut is plain wrong on this aspect of his article......

[saintsRrising]

Waldron, RB, GT and others like Kellet put the building blocks in place and deserve credit and recognition for this....some by skill and vision and some by pure luck (ieThe AFL bringing in the Priority pick rule, Watson's poor coaching and the Blues cheating and penalty where all about GT being in the right spot and the right time). Skill in that they convinced several star players and several other capable players to join the Saints on the back of luring Blight.

I don't understand what the above means.

Due to the above we received Goddard, Roo, Kosi, Ball, and X Clarke.

Goddard was a child.

Roo a star. Although in 06 was severely hampered with injury.

Kosi barely played.

Ball had one good year until crippled with injury. And even in that good year was injured at the most important part.



X Clarke - hardly a factor in any form of 'success' we may have had.

If you had read the WHOLE paragraph..you would understand that I have CLEARLY written that we also gained GTrain, Hamill, Voss and others..

You might also understand that by finishing low on the ladder that we gained Powell in the PSD.

So I don't understand how any Saints supporter who knows the facts about our injury predicament can give the draft any credit for our performances.

Ignorant and uninformed opposition supporters claim the lucky draft picks was the reason for us being awesome on the field. But for Saints supporters to roll out the same nonsense is disappointing.

If we had any form of luck, we'd have another 2 flags by now. Perhaps even 3.

Injury predicament???

You go on and on about this one point in many of your posts Rodge.....

But many of our injuries were PREVENTABLE....and GT's abject failure in this regard had the Saints having a truly dismal record with soft tissue injuries.


Now a season may be bad luck...but a sustained period means bad mangement, incompetance or both.

This one point continually highlighted by you is reason enough of why GT who had demanded full responsibility and accountability for player fitness and conditioning had to go...


You canot have your cake and eat it too Rodge.

If you want to have it that injuries were our only reason for not winning two flags.....you cannot also have it that the man responsible and accountable for our player fitness and conditioning record was not therefore responsible for not winning those two flags.