Tallest saints Team ever????

[bigcarl]

Playing a smaller forwardline is not accepting mediocrity. It's merely an alternative approach.

playing a taller forward line would be an "alternative" approach.

banking on fraser, riewoldt and milne to kick us a winning score every week would be a decidedly mainstream and predictable approach.

what is worse is that it has failed before and will again. we need to 1) stop directing every attack at riewoldt and 2) get someone else down there who can take a contested grab.

[plugger66]

Playing a smaller forwardline is not accepting mediocrity. It's merely an alternative approach.

playing a taller forward line would be an alternative approach.

banking on fraser, riewoldt and milne to kick us a winning score every week would be decidedly mainstream and predictable.

what is worse is that it has failed before and will again. we need to 1) stop directing every attack at riewoldt and 2) get someone else down there who can take a contested grab.

I would think you will get more goals from another small forward type than a person taking contested grabs. You need all types of players in the forward line not 4 talls. It reall does cut down your options.

[Oh When the Saints]

Playing a smaller forwardline is not accepting mediocrity. It's merely an alternative approach.

playing a taller forward line would be an alternative approach.

As would playing a small forward line. We are not limited to a tall forward line as our only alternative option for winning a game.

When asked in his first interview with St Kilda to describe St Kilda's gameplan, Ross Lyon replied to the coaching selection committee with the phrase "kick it to Riewoldt". They all laughed and nodded.

I don't entirely agree with him ... I don't think GT had the sole intent that Riewoldt, Gehrig and Milne should be relied upon to kick a winning score each week.

But it did end up that way.


2006 - 160 goals between Riewoldt, Milne and Gehrig, which was 51.3% of our total number of goals for the year.

2007 - 133 goals between Riewoldt, Milne and Gehrig, which was 49.8% of our total number of goals for the year.


There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our forwardline - when it is fit and on the park, and we are winning the ball in the midfield, it has proven to reliably kick a winning score over the last few years ....

[bigcarl]

When asked in his first interview with St Kilda to describe St Kilda's gameplan, Ross Lyon replied to the coaching selection committee with the phrase "kick it to Riewoldt". They all laughed and nodded.

so what has RL done to change this? very little thus far, I'd suggest.

our reliance on riewoldt borders on pathetic at times, fabulous player though he is.

like geelong last year, we need multiple consistent avenues to goal.

the record shows that we were among the worst in the competition last year for converting inside 50s to goals yet continued to direct nearly every attack to riewoldt

in the end i wasn't surprised that even the cellar dwellers like richmond and carlton managed to trouble the scorers more than us

[Oh When the Saints]

so what has RL done to change this? very little thus far, I'd suggest.

He's added to it, but left what already worked.

Namely, he realises that when our players have been fit, our forward line has worked pretty well in the last four years.

Hence why he tinkered very little with the attacking side of our gameplan, except to introduce more forward pressure through smaller players in the forwardline (X. Clarke, Jones etc.)

the record shows that we were among the worst in the competition last year for converting inside 50s to goals

When we had all our players fit and on the park, we were 3rd in the AFL in this statistic (Rnds 12-22).


There is nothing wrong with our forwardline when our team is fit and our midfielders are playing well. It kicks goals. That's it's objective. It does it well, and has done since 2003.

[bigcarl]

I would think you will get more goals from another small forward type than a person taking contested grabs. You need all types of players in the forward line not 4 talls.

would you class gilbert as a tall? sure he is tall, but imo he's good enough at ground level to play midfield without too many problems. he's also very quick and strong.

so i'm really proposing three talls ... fraser, roo and kosi ... along with gilbert and a couple of goalsneaks like milne and schneider.

the idea of either kosi or fraser getting the opposition's 3rd best tall defender and gilbert their 4th best really appeals to me.

it could be the aerially dominant forward line that changes the face of football ... then again we could finish ninth like last year

[plugger66]

I would think you will get more goals from another small forward type than a person taking contested grabs. You need all types of players in the forward line not 4 talls.

would you class gilbert as a tall? sure he is tall, but imo he's good enough at ground level to play midfield without too many problems. he's also very quick and strong.

so i'm really proposing three talls ... fraser, roo and kosi ... along with gilbert and a couple of goalsneaks like milne and schneider.

the idea of either kosi or fraser getting the opposition's 3rd best tall defender and gilbert their 4th best really appeals to me.

it could be the aerially dominant forward line that changes the face of football ... then again we could finish ninth like last year

Well Gilbert isnt small either. Of course he is a tall and the other thing is that he is a poor kick. By the way in at least half the games last year we had only a 5 man forward line so you cannot have 4 talls in there. 3 talls at max.

[bigcarl]

By the way in at least half the games last year we had only a 5 man forward line.

no wonder we were the lowest scoring team in the entire AFL in 2007 then. we were playing one short on the forward line!

[plugger66]

By the way in at least half the games last year we had only a 5 man forward line.

no wonder we were the lowest scoring team the the entire AFL in 2007 then. we were playing one short on the forward line!

Most sides these days dont always use a 6 man forward line.

[bigcarl]

By the way in at least half the games last year we had only a 5 man forward line.

no wonder we were the lowest scoring team the the entire AFL in 2007 then. we were playing one short on the forward line!

Most sides these days dont always use a 6 man forward line.

i know that but who says that is the only way to play?

imo the teams that win premierships are the ones who set trends, not slavishly follow them

[hAyES]

We had our best year in 2004. A year where our forward line wasn't overly tall at all. It was Roo and Gehrig all year because Kosi missed just about all of that season.

The key is the midfield. We had a contested ball-winning midfield that gave our forwards so much supply it was almost impossible not to kick a winning score. We'd be hopeless at ground level with a team that's too tall and we'd be run off the park every week.

Having Kosi join Gehrig and Riewoldt down there every now and then would be fine, but not overloading our team with tall players trying hopelessly to chase down midfielders every week won't get us anywhere.

And for anybody talking about that game against Brisbane in the last round in 2006 should stop. We played against one of the worst teams in the league in the meaningless last game of the season. Take that game with a grain of salt.

[bigcarl]

We had our best year in 2004. A year where our forward line wasn't overly tall at all. It was Roo and Gehrig all year because Kosi missed just about all of that season.

The key is the midfield. We had a contested ball-winning midfield that gave our forwards so much supply it was almost impossible not to kick a winning score. We'd be hopeless at ground level with a team that's too tall and we'd be run off the park every week.

Having Kosi join Gehrig and Riewoldt down there every now and then would be fine, but not overloading our team with tall players trying hopelessly to chase down midfielders every week won't get us anywhere.

And for anybody talking about that game against Brisbane in the last round in 2006 should stop. We played against one of the worst teams in the league in the meaningless last game of the season. Take that game with a grain of salt.

in 2004 we didn't rely on riewoldt, fraser and milne to kick us winning scores every week. hamill, guerra, kosi (at times) were all big contributers and, running on confidence, our midfielders slotted a few as well.

we had many reliable and consistent avenues to goal and were nowhere near as reliant on riewoldt as we have been in recent times. hamill was important here because he acted as a foil to riewoldt, taking huge pressure off him ... a role i think gilbert could fill quite capably in 2008.

whether they are tall, short, fat or skinny, black or white we must have more guys who can put a score on the board.

we were the lowest scoring team in the league last year. geelong had five guys who kicked 30 or more last year; we had three.

i think we can count on fraser, riewoldt and milne and kosi to kick 30 this season barring injury. kosi did okay kicking 26 last year despite spending much of the season filling in in the ruck. hopefully with king and gardiner now available he'll be able to spend much more time forward this season.

as someone who saw plenty of the careers or loewe and lockett i'm well aware of the advantages of having a big bloke who can take a contested mark lurking near the goals. just gives you something to kick to and can be a huge x-factor in breaking up the flood

[mad saint guy]

We had our best year in 2004. A year where our forward line wasn't overly tall at all. It was Roo and Gehrig all year because Kosi missed just about all of that season.

Kosi played 17 games in 2004.

Our forward line worked so well in 2004 because we had 6 forwards who could kick plenty of goals and a midfield who gave them every chance to do that.

2004 St Kilda forward line

HF: Hamill (27), Riewoldt (67), Guerra (29)
F: Milne (46), Gehrig (103), Koschitzke (20)

2007 St Kilda forward line

HF: Fiora (12), Riewoldt (42), X.Clarke (10)
F: Milne (32), Gehrig (59), Koschitzke (26)

In modern footy you can't have 6 forwards. My ideal setup would be

HF: Medium Fwd (30), Tall Fwd (60), Goalkicking Mid (20)
F: Small Fwd (40), Tall Fwd (70), Resting Ruck/Defender (20)

We don't have a quality medium forward and we have one too many permanent tall forward, but this is how I see the St Kilda forward line working best in 2008

HF: Schneider (30), Riewoldt (60), X.Clarke (20)
F: Milne (40), Koschitzke (60), Gehrig (30)

[bigcarl]

2004 St Kilda forward line

HF: Hamill (27), Riewoldt (67), Guerra (29)
F: Milne (46), Gehrig (103), Koschitzke (20)

2007 St Kilda forward line

HF: Fiora (12), Riewoldt (42), X.Clarke (10)
F: Milne (32), Gehrig (59), Koschitzke (26)

good stats, msg, that illustrate just how dependant we've become on riewoldt across half forward.

we need to find someone else who can take the pressure off him, provide a physical target. and snag a few goals.

people forget how important was hamill in 2004. only kicked 27 but his physical pressence meant our opposition always had to have an eye on him and couldn't afford to double-team roo.

and guerra was important too. they were so busy trying to cover our guns that he snuck under a few guards and he was able to exploit the fact that he was being picked up by a lesser defender.

[Oh When the Saints]

we need to find someone else who can take the pressure off him, provide a physical target. and snag a few goals.

That's why Ross Lyon played Clint Jones and Xavier Clarke off the HF line - we won all but one game when those two were in that role.

It's also why he recruited Adam Schneider.

So he must agree with you.

[bigcarl]

we need to find someone else who can take the pressure off him, provide a physical target. and snag a few goals.

That's why Ross Lyon played Clint Jones and Xavier Clarke off the HF line - we won all but one game when those two were in that role.

It's also why he recruited Adam Schneider.

So he must agree with you.

xavier doesn't contribute enough goals for mine (or hasn't thus far) and clinton jones is a project player. neither is a real alternative marking option like hamill was.

schneider could be a handy goal-kicking pick up but he's hardly a physical target like hamill either

whether it's bj or gilbert or someone else entirely, roo needs a foil who can play the role that once belonged to aaron.

that's just using the first 10 rounds of 2004 as a guide to the sort of forward set-up that might work.

that is not to say that it is the only way, but at least it is a proven way of putting a score on the board, something we didn't always manage in '07

[plugger66]

we need to find someone else who can take the pressure off him, provide a physical target. and snag a few goals.

That's why Ross Lyon played Clint Jones and Xavier Clarke off the HF line - we won all but one game when those two were in that role.

It's also why he recruited Adam Schneider.

So he must agree with you.

xavier doesn't contribute enough goals for mine (or hasn't thus far) and clinton jones is a project player. neither is a real alternative marking option like hamill was.

schneider could be a handy goal-kicking pick up but he's hardly a physical target like hamill either

whether it's bj or gilbert or someone else entirely, roo needs a foil who can play the role that once belonged to aaron.

that's just using the first 10 rounds of 2004 as a guide to the sort of forward set-up that might work.

that is not to say that it is the only way, but at least it is a proven way of putting a score on the board, something we didn't always manage in '07

Your fascination with tall forwards is fascinating. You want Gilbert down there as a tall but then you say he can play as a smaller player. Well if that the case lets use him as a running backman where he will play his best footy. Sides do not in this day and age win flags with 4 talls in the forward line. You can argue about starting something different but it cannot happen. What if it is wet. How would 4 talls go then. 3 talls at max and 2-3 mid to small players will help win a flag.

But what will win the flag is a good forward line with a great midfield which we had in 2004. That is why we got so many goals from our forwards, not really the forward set up

[bigcarl]

it's just an idea to break down our unhealthy reliance on riewoldt across half forward and, like i said, i wouldn't really pigeon-hole gilbert as a tall.

despite his height many on here were talking him up as an on-baller last season, a role i believe he could also fill very successfully.

he's the ultimate utility.

[ben_fff]

it's just an idea to break down our unhealthy reliance on riewoldt across half forward and, like i said, i wouldn't really pigeon-hole gilbert as a tall.

despite his height many on here were talking him up as an on-baller last season, a role i believe he could also fill very successfully.

he's the ultimate utility.

Except like previously said he's a dodgey kick, don't forget we already have a quality utility in Goddard who I'd personally have at the HFF as he has a bit of agro, a quality kick and can play tall when needed as well as play a midfield type roll.

Gilbert is a young bloke who should play as a Half back flanker, a position where he can get plenty of the ball, have responsibility of an opponent and be given the chance to run with the ball.

[bigcarl]

don't forget we already have a quality utility in Goddard who I'd personally have at the HFF as he has a bit of agro, a quality kick and can play tall when needed as well as play a midfield type roll.

i could live with that.

anything that will break down our total dependence on riewoldt across half forward.

you're right that gilbert's kicking is a bit of a work in progress, but i think you will find that eventually it becomes as excellent as the rest of his game.

everything i saw last year indicates a very, very good player and we are fortunate to have utilities of the quality of him and bj. either would do me in that role

[ben_fff]

don't forget we already have a quality utility in Goddard who I'd personally have at the HFF as he has a bit of agro, a quality kick and can play tall when needed as well as play a midfield type roll.

i could live with that. anything that will break down the unhealthy reliance on riewoldt.

you're right that gilbert's kicking is a bit of a work in progress, but i think you will find that eventually it becomes as excellent as the rest of his game.

everything i saw last year indicates a very, very good player

Yeah I think he'll be a quality player, I can see him as an Embley type wingman however the way he is he could develop into anything.

[hAyES]

Kosi played 17 games in 2004.

Damn it I knew I should have checked that first.

[ThomasR]

From the data I have (1990 onwards) our tallest team (average height) was in fact Round 10 last year:

Code: Select all

Michael Rix           198
Justin Koschitzke     197
Fraser Gehrig         195
Sam Gilbert           194
Nick Riewoldt         193
Max Hudghton          191
Samuel Fisher         191
Jason Blake           189
Raphael Clarke        188
James Gwilt           188
Jayden Attard         187
Aaron Fiora           186
Lenny Hayes           186
Jason Gram            186
Nick Dal Santo        185
Shane Birss           184
David Armitage        184
Leigh Fisher          184
Luke Ball             183
Steven Baker          179
Stephen Milne         178
Leigh Montagna        178

average: 187.45cm (of course some heights might be inaccurate)

The highest number of players listed at over 190cm to take the field is 10, in Round 10 1996:

Code: Select all

Peter Everitt         203
Lazar Vidovic         200
Barry Hall            194
Stewart Loewe         194
Jamie Shanahan        194
David Sierakowski     193
Andrew McLean         193
Darryl Wakelin        192
Shane Wakelin         191
Dean Anderson         190

9 has been done a whole bunch of times, most recently Round 13 2006.

[saintsRrising]

From the data I have (1990 onwards) our tallest team (average height) was in fact Round 10 last year:
average: 187.45cm (of course some heights might be inaccurate)

The highest number of players listed at over 190cm to take the field is 10, in Round 10 1996:

Code: Select all

Peter Everitt         203
9 has been done a whole bunch of times, most recently Round 13 2006.[/quote]

Thanks for that comprehensive research.

So a hypothetical team of
Dempster	192
Max	191
Gilbert	194
Gram	186
Goose	190
S Fisher	191
BJ	191
Lenny	186
Joey	178
Roo	193
Kosi	198
Schneider	179
Milne	178
Gtrain	195
C Gardiner	190
King	201
Dal	185
Ball	186
M Gardiner	199
Banger	181
Fiora	186
Raph	188

Average	189

Would be our tallest ever both in terms of average height and also number of players > = to 190 with 12.

[saintsRrising]

And if we replace C Gardiner with Xavier in the FP (a more likely option)...it would still be the tallest ever..

Dempster 192
Max 191
Gilbert 194
Gram 186
Goose 190
S Fisher 191
BJ 191
Lenny 186
Joey 178
Roo 193
Kosi 198
Schneider 179
Milne 178
Gtrain 195
Xavier 181
King 201
Dal 185
Ball 186
M Gardiner 199
Banger 181
Fiora 186
Raph 188

Average 188.6
190 or more = 11.