Forget whos at FF, we're not going anywhere til this happens

[hAyES]

We can talk about who plays where, how fit everybody is, but what doesn't get talked about around here is that we need to be up the top of the contested ball and clearances if we want to go anywhere. Our ruckmen were putrid in '04 and '05, but our midfield was so good that we were still able to be top 2 (in those stats) in both those years.

Can you imagine how good we could be if our midfield can get back to that form, along with two very competent ruckmen in Kosi and King actually being able to get a hand on the ball unlike the duds Ackland and Rix who seem to just jump for no reason?

Geelong don't have blistering speed in the midfield, but all of them went hard at the ball and got first hands on it which set up a ****load of their goals. This is what we did when we were at the top of our game, and it needs to happen again.

Go sainters!

[Batnoe]

I agree


A Lenny Hayes coming back from injury and a Luke Ball that was playing injured is the reason we were not as dominant in the middle

2 players that tackle hard and get hard ball gets.

Powell, peckett, thompson- 3 players that were exremely good at getting the hard ball


Enter a fit and firing Ball and Hayes and we wont get beaten

[hAyES]

I agree about the veterans, they were a huge part of our ball-winning ways. Powell was unbelievable in the packs. Not much good at anything else, but one of the best at getting the hard ball.

[Otiman]

We have a good first-tier midfield (when fully fit), of Hayes, Ball, Montagna, Dal Santo, Baker. However, it's from here that it falls away, Harvey will be 37 this year, and we can't hinge hopes for success on him.

With guys like Armitage, Geary, Eddy, McQualter all ready to step up and hit their straps, hopefully we can get a good 2nd tier along with guys like Birss, Gram, Goddard, Fiora. Schneider, Dempster and Leigh Fisher should pop up through the year as solid midfield contenders.

We have a small number of ball winners; Ball, Hayes, McQualter, Armitage - and quite a lot of outsiders, Goddard, Gram, Fiora, Montagna.

[milney044]

i just watched round 5 2005 against richmond when luke ball had no apparent problem. he was so good in the stoppages, the bash and crash type player who didnt worry about getting a few knocks and bruises. if we get this luke ball back we will cause a lot of damage.

players like luke have what i consider the domino effect.. his work rate lessons the load on lenny, gives dal first use of the footy and therefore hits our forwards a lot faster which puts better scores on the board. it also puts less pressure on the backmen. honestly if you watch luke ball, even if he doesnt get the footy he stops a lot of the play from the opposition, his tackling is first rate.

[Otiman]

Here's a list of all of our "midfield" players. It's quite extensive and consists of a lot of 1st and 2nd year players. I'll try and categorise as much as possible.

1st Year Players
Connors
Steven
Jones
Geary

2nd Year Players
Armitage
Howard

New Players (to St. Kilda) since 2006
Dempster
Schneider
Birss

Taggers
Baker
L. Fisher
Dempster
McQualter
Blake

"In and Under"
Ball
Hayes
McQualter
Armitage

'Outside' Receivers
Fiora
Goddard
Howard
Clarke
Gilbert


And the total list... feel free to edit/add to my categories.
* David Armitage
* Steven Baker
* Luke Ball
* Shane Birss
* Jason Blake
* Xavier Clarke
* Eljay Connors
* Nick Dal Santo
* Sean Dempster
* Aaron Fiora
* Leigh Fisher
* Jarryn Geary
* Sam Gilbert
* Brendon Goddard
* Jason Gram
* Robert Harvey
* Lenny Hayes
* Brad Howard
* Clinton Jones
* Leigh Montagna
* Adam Schneider
* Jack Steven

[saintsRrising]

On Fiora...it is interesting to note that late in 2007 that he started doing more inside work....and he was very quick at releasing the ball well to an outside target.

Not saying that he will doa lot of this in 2008...just that he seemed to have grown as a player.

[hAyES]

On Fiora...it is interesting to note that late in 2007 that he started doing more inside work....and he was very quick at releasing the ball well to an outside target.

Not saying that he will doa lot of this in 2008...just that he seemed to have grown as a player.

Didn't notice that, but hopefully he can keep that up.

[bigcarl]

'Outside' Receivers
Fiora
Goddard
Howard
Clarke
Gilbert

would you class gilbert as outside? i'd have thought he's a more physical type, remembering a few of the tackles he laid last year.

perhaps his height will stop him getting in and under though.

[hAyES]

'Outside' Receivers
Fiora
Goddard
Howard
Clarke
Gilbert

would you class gilbert as outside? i'd have thought he's a more physical type, remembering a few of the tackles he laid last year.

perhaps his height will stop him getting in and under though.

I see Gilbert as more of a flanker until his disposal gets better. Not far off though.

[Lynch Beast]

In and under

Kerr, Priddis, Masten, Ebert, Hurn, Waters, Butler, Selwood, Selwood, McGinnity, McNamara, Stenglein

'outside'

Braun, Fletcher

bugger

can we borrow some outside mids

Seriously though, the team that controls the stoppages and can move the ball from contested situations cleaner will be at a massive advantage to the opposition. Geelong were foot speed slow but football brain fast while Port were foot speed fast but football brain slow and they got thumped by the much harder at the ball team.

[Otiman]

Trade you Gram and Fiora for a Selwood and Priddis.

[Teflon]

I agree about the veterans, they were a huge part of our ball-winning ways. Powell was unbelievable in the packs. Not much good at anything else, but one of the best at getting the hard ball.

Recently re watched the 05 QF qin over Adelaide...just forgot how much hard work Powell/Peckett in terms of mature bodies did....that hurt us for sure and I thought Peckett played on a season to long...

Your OP is spot on re clearances etc and what a decent ruck set up could mean to that - its why I consider M Gardiner our "x" factor and see King as just vital........they play well and enough...we get more first hands on ball AND Kosi becomes a headache up fwd for opposition sides.

[saintspremiers]

On Fiora...it is interesting to note that late in 2007 that he started doing more inside work....and he was very quick at releasing the ball well to an outside target.

Not saying that he will doa lot of this in 2008...just that he seemed to have grown as a player.

good point, and it meant he then became an established best 22 player at that same time.

Without some inside work, his value is signficantly diminished.

[saintsRrising]

In and under


Seriously though, the team that controls the stoppages and can move the ball from contested situations cleaner will be at a massive advantage to the opposition. Geelong were foot speed slow but football brain fast while Port were foot speed fast but football brain slow and they got thumped by the much harder at the ball team.

Not really surprising with PA.....as for mine they over-achieved by making the GF.

Their youngers players were not ready.....and lacking in experience.

They will bea better unit next year, but may not make the GF. I think in the finals thata few things fell their way including opposition teams not being at their best...apart from the Cats.

[bigcarl]

Geelong don't have blistering speed in the midfield, but all of them went hard at the ball and got first hands on it.

agree. and, like geelong of last year, we need to convert opportunities into goals.

kosi forward is part of that

[hAyES]

IMO Port were way too relaxed going into that GF. They had their coach telling them and through the media they had it in the bag, and weren't prepared for a great team like Geelong were last year.

[Lynch Beast]

Trade you Gram and Fiora for a Selwood and Priddis.

Did you know that Fiora has the equal most games played (of current players, around 5th of all time with Shannon Watt from the kangas) without getting a Brownlow vote

surprised me because I have seen him play some pretty good footy

[vacuous space]

We can talk about who plays where, how fit everybody is, but what doesn't get talked about around here is that we need to be up the top of the contested ball and clearances if we want to go anywhere.

Since Ball, Dal Santo and Hayes spend more time in the centre than anyone else, keeping those three healthy will be absolutely crucial to our stoppages in 08. Getting those three some help around the stoppages from some second tier guys would help a lot too. The likes of Stephen Powell and Andrew Thompson haven't been replaced in the middle, and we need somebody to go in and do the grunt work if any of our top-3 are resting. If Armo could find an AFL level game soon, it would very much appreciated.

I think delivery into forward fifty and forward pressure are bigger problems than the stoppages though. We've replaced guys like Aussie, Frankie and Heath Black with guys like Fiora, Gram and Montagna. None of those guys are nearly as good at delivering the ball as the guys they've replaced. Our forward pressure was improved under Lyon but not to the point it needs to be. We're still in a situation where if the ball hits the deck inside forward fifty, it's probably going to come right back out again. We're not moving the ball nearly as well as we used to, and as a result we're getting exposed on when we give up the ball.

[saintsRrising]

It is possibly just that "rose colored glasses " time of year but I am feeling very optimistic about our midfield with the exception of Ball whose status to me is still a complete unknown.


For 2008 I would currently see through my "rose haze that":

That after a quiet start to 2007 that Hayes reached full form and fitness bynseasons end and should be set fora big 2008. I reagrd Hayes as one f our most importnat, if not the most importnat players. Lenny is our "natural" cpatain and when he is on somnng he marshalls our troops.


Joey has been on a steady improvement curve and in 2007 becamea genuine midfielder.


Fiora after years of lacking self belief became a regular first 22 player. Towards the end of last season he also delivered some quality inside mid work as well. Now if he could just become a more accurate shot at goal he could turn a few games and provide more impact.


X..has been ravaged by injury , but last year managed when he came back to deliver some uqlaity work includeing some tough in and under stuff...like Fiora needs to improve his accuracy at goal.


BJ...will be back in 2008 with perhaps a qiet start. While BJ may only play limited actual midfield time his directing of play sets up the mids from defence.

Schneider.. I am not one of those labelling him as a star player....but he is exactly the type of player that we were lacking. He will help out with runs through the midfield and will ease the load. There are some some including Swans fans who believe that if he lifts his work rate and base fitness level that he has the capability of transorming intoa useful mid. I am more than happy if he just plays as a HF/relieving mid.


Birrs...again no star, but will provide depth.

Banger...will be a year holder...but Banger will be Banger and while he will no doubt play less game time he will deliver quality and experience when required.

Dal..real quality here, but has suffered under tags, though all in all he still delivered a quality year in 2007. Dal I believe will benefit greatly from an expanded midfield as in 2007 the opposition knew that they mainly just had to just shut down or limit Dal and Banger. I also believe that Dal may just start to kick a few more goals. I think Dal will havea big 2008.

The Young uns

While not expecting a huge number of games from them I would expect Geary and Armo in particular to provide some useful support in 2008....and they will put real pressure on players like Birrs to perform.

Taggers...well a bit ofanegative here though. Attard out for the year and Baker will miss the first part of the year. His notoriety now may see him being over-umpired. On the plus side Dempster provides another tagging option and L Fisher also showed last year that he can play this role.

Rucks....while we do not know about M Gardiner from what I have gleened I would be very confident that King at least will play a significant number of games in the ruck this year. A genuine ruckman makes things easier for midfielders...it is not just the tap work but their bodywork and clearing paths etc. I am not saing that we will have an awesome ruck unit...just that it will be better.
Madden will hopefully improve the capabilty as Kosi as a ruckmen as kosi's pure ruckwork has often not been good. Madeen will also be excellent for the young McEvoy thogh I don't expect McEvoy to play much in 2008.



All in all I feel our midfield is in much better shape....and a truly fit and fre moving Ball would a further bonus.

[Teflon]

We can talk about who plays where, how fit everybody is, but what doesn't get talked about around here is that we need to be up the top of the contested ball and clearances if we want to go anywhere.

Since Ball, Dal Santo and Hayes spend more time in the centre than anyone else, keeping those three healthy will be absolutely crucial to our stoppages in 08. Getting those three some help around the stoppages from some second tier guys would help a lot too. The likes of Stephen Powell and Andrew Thompson haven't been replaced in the middle, and we need somebody to go in and do the grunt work if any of our top-3 are resting. If Armo could find an AFL level game soon, it would very much appreciated.

I think delivery into forward fifty and forward pressure are bigger problems than the stoppages though. We've replaced guys like Aussie, Frankie and Heath Black with guys like Fiora, Gram and Montagna. None of those guys are nearly as good at delivering the ball as the guys they've replaced. Our forward pressure was improved under Lyon but not to the point it needs to be. We're still in a situation where if the ball hits the deck inside forward fifty, it's probably going to come right back out again. We're not moving the ball nearly as well as we used to, and as a result we're getting exposed on when we give up the ball.

A very good post - particularly where you mention fwd 50 pressure its that part of the game that a Hamill did so much in terms of upping the 'tempo' of those around that we lack now. I think X Clarke generates some fwd 50 urgency and do feel that Gilbert could possibly in future get a run there...tackles very well and can run and kick a goal.

Im hoping also Armo gets a good run this year along with Geary and Eddt Id also like to see an emergence of a "new brigade" of secong stringers in the middle.

[bigcarl]

Gilbert could possibly in future get a run there ... tackles very well and can run and kick a goal.

tall, fast, strong and very agile for a guy of his height. could be a very handy foil for riewoldt at some time in the future

[plugger66]

Gilbert could possibly in future get a run there ... tackles very well and can run and kick a goal.

tall, fast, strong and very agile for a guy of his height. could be a very handy foil for riewoldt at some time in the future

He could also be a better HBF where is can use his pace and tackling better as we do not have enough down back. Do not need anymore tall forwards at this moment especially ones that are poor kicks.

[Otiman]

He could also be a better HBF

How many HBF'ers do we have? I'd say we have at least 7.

[plugger66]

He could also be a better HBF

How many HBF'ers do we have? I'd say we have at least 7.

But apart from Gram there is no pace in the backline and that is why he will play back.