How much good fotune did we have with our appointment of RL?

[saintsRrising]

2. Some of your fantasies verge on the delusional (eg, ascribing G-Train's decision to come back in 2008 as something to do with Lyon being coach rather than Thommo, .

??? Did I say that. No I did not.

What I said was that if GT had still been our coach that the GTrain would not be still playing with us....nor would Banger who did not retire...nor Milne..who did not retire either.

You may have missed it but GT has bagged all three in the media ....

or the idea that Lyon had some magical effect on Fiora's efforts. .

magical??? Not magic. Just a coach who got more out of him. See coaching does not have to be based on guru like revelations or management speak nor magic. It can just be well....coaching.

I suppose GT would have stopped us from ratifying the Kyoto protocal and apologising to the stolen generations as well. .

I don't know...did he vote liberal..? If so then yes in part he was trying to stop both as the Liberal party Policy was against doing both.

3. You still haven't told me why Matthew Drain is going to be so wonderful .

It is not a matter of being wonderful. Just effective at the position of Football manager...a position that GT would not havea bar off as it threatened his power trip.

AFL club's today do not achieve success through any one person or control freak.

[joffaboy]

Hasn't Lyon now won exactly the same as the previous coach? And it only took him just over a season, not three.

Lyon is the future, the previous coach is just that, previous. Let go, hes gone. He failed. Couldn't deliver a flag.

Up to Lyon to succeed where the previous coach failed.

[vacuous space]

The Saints defensive side was virtually non-existant when he took over. Previously if a good team got going we were powerless to stop them.

Points against:
2002 - 2271
2003 - 2187
2004 - 1909
2005 - 1806
2006 - 1752

2007 - 1941

Ross inherited a team which had finished 3rd in points against in 06 and 4th in 05. I don't know how you can say that he was taking over a team with no defensive side.

[saintsRrising]

The Saints defensive side was virtually non-existant when he took over. Previously if a good team got going we were powerless to stop them.

Points against:
2002 - 2271
2003 - 2187
2004 - 1909
2005 - 1806
2006 - 1752

2007 - 1941

Ross inherited a team which had finished 3rd in points against in 06 and 4th in 05. I don't know how you can say that he was taking over a team with no defensive side.

Let me explain what I was getting at...

I was not talking about defence....which is what your stats are....but rather having a defensive game plan for when the opposition have the ball. This applies to every member in the team. In particular the defensive pressure of our forwards was poor when Hamill was not there.

GT's game plan was in the main all about attack.....and when opposition coaches combatted this with controlling the ball with posession football GT's game plan was all at sea.

The opposition would flood back.....allowing them to often gain control of the ball...and then they would coe fmorward in numbers.

Contrast this with the NAB GF when Adelaide were not allowed to easily move the ball out of their defence.

Gt's F & a is also inflated as the saints beacame flat track bullies towelling up the weaker teams....but coming adrift against the better teams that could apply defensive pressure whenthe Saints had the ball....and who could then exploit the lack of defensive pressure when they had the ball.

Yes the streak was a wonderful time....but then good teams changed how they played against us.

The football world changed...but the Saints did not. Well not till post Bonnie Doon when ironically (as the decision to exit GT had already been made) GT's coaching vastly improved in terms of match day coaching and I personally thought most games that he coached quite well...very well in fact.



Personally for me the turning point about GT was the Kangaroos game when we could have and should have won the game...but failed to flood or apply defensive pressure when the Roos had the run of the ball in the last quarter.

Post game GT indicated that he could have flooded...but chose not to as finals teams did not win that way!!!!!!!! Madness, 4 points when begging.


Contrast that to now....the saints have now tactically aquired the ability to put defensive pressure on, to apply the brakes when required.......this is the quality do you need to defeat other quality teams.

But yes you still need to scorea nd score well....and RL seems to now have the team clicking with both their offensive and defensive sides.

[yipper]

This has been a most amusing read. It seems that RL is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Those of you sprouting the "it's only a praccy match" stuff care to advise us of how RL should then have tackled the NAB cup?? Like Paul Roos?? Some of you also don't rate him either!! From where I was sitting I saw St.Kilda play 4 pretty good praccy matches where they won each one without really trying to!! So was this a terrible result?? If you read some crap on here you'd think it was a shocking effort!! The reason I am so optimistic from this series is that they have developed the gameplan, added to their structure and have been obviously better conditioned based on how they have been finishing games. Anyone who failed to see any of that is in denial. The don't get carried away crap is just that - no-one is. Certainly not the St.Kilda Football Club and no-one on here is. BUT - what we have / are witnessing is a refreshing looking team with a very solid structure, who appear to have mastered the coach's gameplan. Everybody, and I mean everybody in the football industry is getting highly encouraged by what RL has managed to achieve going into 2008 - football experts are predicting flags, we supporters, who are also getting a little optimistic, are getting shot down by killjoys on here determined to harp on last season's results from a team that appears to have knowingly taken a step back before heading forward from last year. I am going to the footy this year with a spring in my step because I reckon our current coach has opened the window again.

[saintsRrising]

This has been a most amusing read. It seems that RL is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Those of you sprouting the "it's only a praccy match" stuff care to advise us of how RL should then have tackled the NAB cup?? Like Paul Roos?? Some of you also don't rate him either!! From where I was sitting I saw St.Kilda play 4 pretty good praccy matches where they won each one without really trying to!! So was this a terrible result?? If you read some crap on here you'd think it was a shocking effort!! The reason I am so optimistic from this series is that they have developed the gameplan, added to their structure and have been obviously better conditioned based on how they have been finishing games. Anyone who failed to see any of that is in denial. The don't get carried away crap is just that - no-one is. Certainly not the St.Kilda Football Club and no-one on here is. BUT - what we have / are witnessing is a refreshing looking team with a very solid structure, who appear to have mastered the coach's gameplan. Everybody, and I mean everybody in the football industry is getting highly encouraged by what RL has managed to achieve going into 2008 - football experts are predicting flags, we supporters, who are also getting a little optimistic, are getting shot down by killjoys on here determined to harp on last season's results from a team that appears to have knowingly taken a step back before heading forward from last year. I am going to the footy this year with a spring in my step because I reckon our current coach has opened the window again.

Well said.

[Devilhead]

My understanding is also, that Lyon actually fell through the cracks of our 'process' anyway. He wasn't in the short list originally which our 'process' came up with.

Would like to know more about your understanding … sources??… why he fell through?? … who was on the short list??? …. Care to elaborate!!

I'm staggered that what appear to be long time football following adults, are getting excited and making big assumptions based on the pre-season.

It's simply staggering.

We've had discards help us win a pre-season cup before. People have very short memories.

Yeah and many of those so-called discards got us into the finals within a very short time of winning that Pre-season cup

1996 win pre-season cup – 1997 – Minor Premiers
2004 win pre-season cup – 2004 – Preliminary Final

I still cannot believe people are using the pre-season cup as any guide of where we're at.

Are football supporters that thick? Anyone remember a club called Carlton?

Fair dinkum.

Cmon Foxy you can do better than that!!!

Year – Pre Season Premier – End of Year Position (End Finals Position)

1983 – Carlton – 5th (Elim)
1984 – Essendon – 1st (Premiers)
1985 – Hawthorn – 3rd (Runners Up)
1986 – Hawthorn – 1st (Runners Up)
1987 – Melbourne – 5th (Prelim)
1988 – Hawthorn – 1st (Premiers)
1989 – Melbourne – 4th (Semi)
1990 – Essendon – 1st (Runners Up)
1991 – Hawthorn – 2nd (Premiers)
1992 – Hawthorn – 5th (Elim)
1993 – Essendon – 1st (Premiers)
1994 – Essendon – 10th
1995 – North Melbourne – 6th (Prelim)
1996 – St. Kilda – 10th
1997 – Carlton – 11th
1998 – North Melbourne – 1st (Runners Up)
1999 – Hawthorn – 9th
2000 – Essendon – 1st (Premiers)
2001 – Port Adelaide – 3rd (Semi)
2002 – Port Adelaide – 1st (Prelim)
2003 – Adelaide – 6th (Semi)
2004 – St. Kilda – 3rd (Prelim)
2005 – Carlton – 16th
2006 – Geelong – 10th
2007 – Carlton – 15th
2008 – St. Kilda - ??

Holy s*** only 7 winners in the last 25 years have not made the finals.

Or is that 18 winners in the last 25 years have made it to the finals.

Yeah you’re right it’s a terrible indicator!!

Fair dinkum!!

If they are the reasons you think he was sacked, you are very, very naive.

Christ you are making all these KNOW-IT-ALL statements yet you don’t have the balls to elaborate……again!!!!

Cmon Rodg – you used to be interestingly pessimistic – now you are just being completely pathetically pessimistic. With these doom and gloom - don’t get your hopes up – the end of the world is nigh – lets bury our excitement under a 20 metre slab of concrete lead lined room statements I think it would be great if would you care to enlighten as to where you think we will finish this year?? (Though you are not allowed to take into account the NAB Cup or our finish from last year because it apparently means nothing in the great scheme of things)

For the record I will say 2nd … rodg??

[meher baba]

This has been a most amusing read. It seems that RL is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Those of you sprouting the "it's only a praccy match" stuff care to advise us of how RL should then have tackled the NAB cup?? Like Paul Roos?? Some of you also don't rate him either!! From where I was sitting I saw St.Kilda play 4 pretty good praccy matches where they won each one without really trying to!! So was this a terrible result?? If you read some crap on here you'd think it was a shocking effort!! The reason I am so optimistic from this series is that they have developed the gameplan, added to their structure and have been obviously better conditioned based on how they have been finishing games. Anyone who failed to see any of that is in denial. The don't get carried away crap is just that - no-one is. Certainly not the St.Kilda Football Club and no-one on here is. BUT - what we have / are witnessing is a refreshing looking team with a very solid structure, who appear to have mastered the coach's gameplan. Everybody, and I mean everybody in the football industry is getting highly encouraged by what RL has managed to achieve going into 2008 - football experts are predicting flags, we supporters, who are also getting a little optimistic, are getting shot down by killjoys on here determined to harp on last season's results from a team that appears to have knowingly taken a step back before heading forward from last year. I am going to the footy this year with a spring in my step because I reckon our current coach has opened the window again.

Hi yipper. If this comment is directed at me, I think it's a bit unfair. I for one would not deny that we generally saw good stuff in the pre-season and that there are grounds for optimism. I, for one, am feeling extremely optimistic about the season. However, I was responding to a thread in which the general mood was one of "thank god we've got Lyon". And, like the Fireman earlier, I think it's a bit early for us to be feeling this way: as opposed, for instance, for being thankful that we have the two Nicks, Harves, Fraser G, Kosi, Joey, Lenny, Bally, Chips, etc, etc.

[barks4eva]

This has been a most amusing read. It seems that RL is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Those of you sprouting the "it's only a praccy match" stuff care to advise us of how RL should then have tackled the NAB cup?? Like Paul Roos?? Some of you also don't rate him either!! From where I was sitting I saw St.Kilda play 4 pretty good praccy matches where they won each one without really trying to!! So was this a terrible result?? If you read some crap on here you'd think it was a shocking effort!! The reason I am so optimistic from this series is that they have developed the gameplan, added to their structure and have been obviously better conditioned based on how they have been finishing games. Anyone who failed to see any of that is in denial. The don't get carried away crap is just that - no-one is. Certainly not the St.Kilda Football Club and no-one on here is. BUT - what we have / are witnessing is a refreshing looking team with a very solid structure, who appear to have mastered the coach's gameplan. Everybody, and I mean everybody in the football industry is getting highly encouraged by what RL has managed to achieve going into 2008 - football experts are predicting flags, we supporters, who are also getting a little optimistic, are getting shot down by killjoys on here determined to harp on last season's results from a team that appears to have knowingly taken a step back before heading forward from last year. I am going to the footy this year with a spring in my step because I reckon our current coach has opened the window again.

here here, well said

The player's have also had time to develop a relationship with Lyon, this does not just happen overnight and from all reports the relationship between the coach and players is very good.

Ross Lyon has got all the bases covered, whereas even half the flogs on here could give conman Thomas a lesson about footy, Ross Lyon is the font of wisdom, the genuine article, the Real McCoy, a coach with a game plan, tactics and a real grasp on what is required, without ignoring any of the basic fundamentals.

Ross Lyon knows what type's of player's are needed, know's what levels of fitness are required, know's what processes need to be adhered to and it's no wonder that Robert Harvey speaks of him glowingly after having played for half a decade in a team that virtually coached itself.

Why the need for closed training sessions?

Well we now have a fair dinkum coach who actually has a real gameplan and some tactics, which is the polar opposite of what happened previously.

I'm fair dinkum rapt to know that the coach of the St.Kilda Football Club has much more of a clue about footy than I could ever hope to know whereas the previous buffoon was just like any other know nothing flog on the terraces, only glorified by his own self appointment and snakeoil merchant sales routine.

[skeptic]

When GT took over as coach, the club had no money and no means to put in place what GT wanted...

times changed, we got a bit of $$$ and GT implemented what he wanted, the way he wanted and for a while it worked... we were top of the line

the problem with GT was that he ran out of ideas... he took us to a point and couldn't take us any further and as the game evolved he was unable to adapt hence we stagnated and the wheels began to fall off... make no mistake GT would have made an excellent coach in the 90s along with Pagan and a whole bunch of other coaches that had 1 great style for their eras but couldn't adjust with the times.

The fortune with Ross Lyon is that he worked/had influence at a club that is used to having the best of the best in terms of equipment, personel, resources etc
Coming to St.Kilda... a St.Kilda with $$$ for the 1st time in its history, he is able to bring a lot of this knowledge and invest it in key personel, equipment and resources.

He is truly in a unique position... no St.Kilda coach has ever had this before.

Whether or not he is a great coach will depend on if he has innovations or can find innovations to make/keep us with the elite teams or is he a 1 trick pony??? That's where the juries out.


On side note, personally I don't believe the coaching selection process was quite and "clean" as has been made out. I just don't believe that the board at the time sacked the coach of a team that had finished 4th, 4th and 8th over the previous few years without somebody in mind.

Thats not to say that the process was corrupted or applicants never really had a hope of toppling Ross, but personally I think the position wass Ross' to lose...
I remember that most of us hadn't even heard of him until the final four was announced... and the rumour mill had it that he was the last interviewee and that his interview took place in secret late the night b4. I suspect that at the very least, the board were very keen on some1 who had worked with the resources of an interstate club... might have swung the balance between him and the WB assistance coach Bond??? who was remarked to have performed slightly better in the interview

[Oh When the Saints]

If we win a premiership in 2008, how much credit does Ross Lyon deserve?


Let's see where everyone stands ...

[saintsRrising]

If we win a premiership in 2008, how much credit does Ross Lyon deserve?


Let's see where everyone stands ...

Good question.....but not really answerable as we have not seen how???

Any Premiership can only be achived by many contributing...so it would bea safe bet to say that he would as a minimum have been a very signiciant factor. The coach by definition has more influence than most.

Will it have been due to King, Gardi and Schneider all having great years? Though in the case of KG just have reasonable years would bea vast improvement...and a benefit gained due to RL's securing them.

Will it have been due to what appears to have been good play with variations for each team?


Will we have had a an average soft tissue injury rate...or something out of the box? How well will Misson, The new Club Doc and the others on the Conditioning team go..

etc

One remark I have heard from RL is that he is looking for a more even contribution from our 22.

Not said....but what I am assuming is that RL will also be looking for a more even contribution from ALL of the offield team.

RL strikes me as a team man...and wanting a full team effort from both his on feld and off field teams.

[JeffDunne]

If we win a premiership in 2008, how much credit does Ross Lyon deserve?

I really was going to stay out of this but I can't leave this.

Really - what sort of question is that?

IMVFHO, it's an indication of how ridiculous this entire discussion has become.

If Lyon wins a flag he deserves total credit.

Full stop - end of story.

[jonesy]

While I loved the innovation of GT I can't help but be thankful for the selection panel that appointed RL.

To me the timing of the sacking of GT and the subsequent coaches that we had to choose from as a replacement was a stroke of good fortune that has turned our club into a formidable outfit this year. At the time there were no other clubs as far as I recall that were on the market for a coach. As a consequence we were so lucky that we could choose from the best available across the AFL at the time. I doubt that it was planned this way but for me the timing has proved impeccable. I posted last year about my strong feeling of support for RL and my wife who always seems to be far more intuitive than me (unfortunately she supports the maggies) told me in no uncertain terms that last year would be one of consolidation and this year would be when we shine.

I have a strong belief that this or next year will be our Yang year (after the bad luck and probably more realistically the bad management of our recent Ying years - sorry for any Chinese ancestry Saints supporters who probably know far more about this than me as the son of a white immigrant).

In my view the appointment of Dave Misson has provided the impetus for something special over the next year or three (anyone had a look at the Sydney injury list recently).

Yours in Sainthood - Darwin Lazy

Off topic..

Good too see another Darwinite on the forum . I'm in a house of all recent ex pat's Victorians,and even better we're all Sainters. We're thinking about trying to organise a Stkilda supporters group to watch the games at a pub each week. Stay tuned if it go's ahead...

[lendog heaven]

My recollection of events was that RL did not apply for the job but was approached by throbby balls as the short list was contracting and not throwing up an ideal candidate.

I like the fact that RL does not appear to have the Rialto-sized ego of his predecessor and that the footy department budget is not being spent on scouring the slums of Soweto so GT can look like Brighton's version of Mother Teresa.

Let's just keep our fingers crossed and hope to God that RL can deliver that which we crave (and f**ing deserve!)

And you posters that turn on each other just because of a difference of opinion are doing yourselves a disservice-unless this site has been infitrated by filth and blue shite suporters and I've been too stupid to realise.

Keep the faith!

[barks4eva]

If we win a premiership in 2008, how much credit does Ross Lyon deserve?

I really was going to stay out of this but I can't leave this.

Really - what sort of question is that?

IMVFHO, it's an indication of how ridiculous this entire discussion has become.

If Lyon wins a flag he deserves total credit.

Full stop - end of story.

We should never forget the important part that Tim Watson played though

[barks4eva]

I like the fact that RL does not appear to have the Rialto-sized ego of his predecessor and that the footy department budget is not being spent on scouring the slums of Soweto so GT can look like Brighton's version of Mother Teresa.

Good stuff, keep em coming

[vacuous space]

I was not talking about defence....which is what your stats are....but rather having a defensive game plan for when the opposition have the ball.

I don't understand the difference. Isn't stopping the opposition attack when they have the ball exactly what a defence is? Fact is, our defence got statistically worse last year.

[bigcarl]

If we win a premiership in 2008, how much credit does Ross Lyon deserve?

if he wins us a flag he'll get due credit. he'll be feted as a hero and legend of the club.

but i think he'd be the first to admit he was handed some pretty good equipment to work with ... a group of talented boys that GT and the RB administration nurtured and stuck with.

but it is a pretty big if. let's worry about it when it happens.

[saint08]

Another element has been good recruiting and trading....

Another element of what??

As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) we had a top list that missed the top 4 on % in 2006, then missed the finals last year.

What, and where is this magical improvement you keep referring to?

I think that when the team goes from 3rd to 4th to 8th to 9th, it is not going in the right direction. Many factors play a part in that. Luck, training models, coaching, leadership and morale, resources, injury, coaching team skills, cohesion and experience, etc etc.

Ross seems - at this early stage- to have us moving back in the right direction now. But lets see how we go when the real thing starts. I am more optimistic than I was at the start of 2006 or 2007.

[rodgerfox]

Another element has been good recruiting and trading....

Another element of what??

As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) we had a top list that missed the top 4 on % in 2006, then missed the finals last year.

What, and where is this magical improvement you keep referring to?

I think that when the team goes from 3rd to 4th to 8th to 9th, it is not going in the right direction. Many factors play a part in that. Luck, training models, coaching, leadership and morale, resources, injury, coaching team skills, cohesion and experience, etc etc.

Ross seems - at this early stage- to have us moving back in the right direction now. But lets see how we go when the real thing starts. I am more optimistic than I was at the start of 2006 or 2007.

Now that's a sensible post.

Although I don't totally agree with basing our status on where we finished officially after a finals series, this is a very fair post.

One thing that really bothers me with this thread, and so many like - usually all by the same few posters, is that everything comes back to GT.

Lyon is good because GT would have done this. Lyon is astute because he did this differently to GT. And so on, and so on.

What GT did, what he didn't do, what he was going to do - does not relate to Ross Lyon and his ability.

Certainly it can be argued that it would impact his record, but not his actually ability.

This has been my point all along with Lyon.

People seem to be declaring his greatness - simply because he isn't GT. It doesn't work that way.

Just because he isn't GT, doesn't mean he will be any good. Just because he is better than GT - doesn't mean anything.

Why do the usual suspects have to raise GT in comparisons everytime a Ross Lyon thread comes up?

For god's sake - he's gone. Move on.

[barks4eva]

One thing that really bothers me with this thread, and so many like - usually all by the same few posters, is that everything comes back to GT.

Lyon is good because GT would have done this. Lyon is astute because he did this differently to GT. And so on, and so on.

What GT did, what he didn't do, what he was going to do - does not relate to Ross Lyon and his ability.

Certainly it can be argued that it would impact his record, but not his actually ability.

This has been my point all along with Lyon.

People seem to be declaring his greatness - simply because he isn't GT. It doesn't work that way.

Just because he isn't GT, doesn't mean he will be any good. Just because he is better than GT - doesn't mean anything.

Why do the usual suspects have to raise GT in comparisons everytime a Ross Lyon thread comes up?

For god's sake - he's gone. Move on.

"Lyon is great because he isn't GT, it doesn't work that way"

FAIR DINKUM and what colour's the sky, dodgy?



You don't get it do you!

Lyon's genuis and ability as an astute football thinking coach has got nothing whatsoever to do with snakeoil salesman Thomas, and quite frankly I'm flabbergasted that you'd even think/interpret such a simplistic notion, but then again you've always been a bit laterally challenged on matters regarding football, dodgy.

Lyon is a brilliant coach and he would still be the same brilliant coach, even if our last coach was either Norm Smith, Leigh Matthews, Paul Roos or Isaac Newton.

It just so happens that Lyon address's the basic fundamentals, and is one of the smartest football thinker's going around, whereas Thomas is just like any know nothing buffoon/flog on the terraces only glorified by his own self appointment and snakeoil sales routine.

Any comparison's are merely to highlight the difference between chalk and cheese, not too hard to understand for most, I'm assuming, but a bit too much for you to grasp, nonetheless.

[rodgerfox]

Lyon's genuis and ability as an astute football thinking coach has got nothing whatsoever to do with snakeoil salesman Thomas, and quite frankly I'm flabbergasted that you'd even think/interpret such a simplistic notion, but then again you've always been a bit laterally challenged on matters regarding football, dodgy.

Lyon is a brilliant coach and he would still be the same brilliant coach, even if our last coach was either Norm Smith, Leigh Matthews, Paul Roos or Isaac Newton.

It just so happens that Lyon address's the basic fundamentals, and is one of the smartest football thinker's going around, whereas Thomas is just like any know nothing buffoon/flog on the terraces only glorified by his own self appointment and snakeoil sales routine.

I rest my case.

[st.byron]

We had a disgusting year last year.

Anyone who disputes that is either in denial, or delusional. It was embarrassing for our club, and a disgrace that a list as good as ours can miss the 8.

"Won 7.5 out of last 11 last year and the pre-season has been solid, focused and almost injury free."

the only part I see as being of any relevance is the last bit. Won 7.5 of the last 11???!! WTF? Are we hanging our hats on that?

Fair dinkum.

Not hanging any hats on anything just yet Rog. Agree that really solid results are yet to come. But it's true that fitness and list depth is better than at any time since before Thomas was in the driving seat. Lyon deserves commendation for that and I don't see why you and Babble-a-lot can't give credit where credit's due. Westaway and his team have given the management of the club a really sound structure, delivered a sponsorship coup and made a clear decision about our future home base. All with no bloody razzle-dazzle nonsense. Just like Lyon they're getting on with the job of making St.Kilda football club a professional and winning outfit.
No chocolates or flowers at this stage, agreed. But the signs are encouraging and that deserves some acknowledgment.

[Devilhead]

I rest my case.

Far from it!!

You have yet to answer my simple question and put your head on the chopping block!!

Cmon Rodg ... where are the Saints going to finish this year??

Simple question!!