Forget Reputations - How good are we really?

[mad saint guy]

Warning - long, long post

Since 2004 we have always had a mass of big-name players, yet have never made it to a grand final. Some of our players have been dubbed as superstars of the competition because of a good season over three years ago or even just a few good games every now and then. We have some genuine stars, but many players who are considered automatic selections really aren't performing any better than the guys battling it out for the 21st/22nd spot in the team.

This is how I would rate our players based solely on their recent form (2008, nab cup, some 2007 influence), completely ignoring their reputation and irrelevant achievements from a time when the game was played in a vastly different style.

A = Superstar of the competition. Absolute elite. You won't find more than 3 or 4 of these at any club
B = Very good, consistent, effective player. These guys are the ones who can step up every few weeks into A grade form and win you games. Most teams would want at least 5 of them.
C = The bulk of the team. C+ is more than comfortable at AFL level, while C- can usually hold his own, but only just.
D = Not AFL standard. Backup in an area in which a team is lacking and likely candidates for delisting.

Jason Gram - Good rebounder who struggles defensively and has no inside game whatsoever. Skills can be damaging but also unreliable. If let loose can cause trouble, but is easily stifled with a tag. B-

Steven King - Solid backup ruckman. Wins hitouts but can't direct them. Positions himself well around the ground but lacks the overhead marking to have any real impact. C

Xavier Clarke - Inconsistent midfielder/half forward who shows flashes of brilliance but also goes missing far too often. His skills and effort are elite, but doesn't get enough of the ball to be considered a great player. C+

Ben McEvoy - NA

Leigh Fisher - Fairly effective tagger, but offers little else. His skills are reasonable, he is good overhead and has good ground level skills, but doesn't hurt the opposition with the ball and doesn't rack up possessions. Too slow to play on most small forwards. C

Lenny Hayes - Excellent inside game, but is not hugely damaging with the ball and needs skilled runners supporting him if he is to make a real difference. B+

Max Hudghton - When fit he is the best negating defender in the competition. Brilliant spoiling technique, excellent timing and good closing speed. His durability however is a massive worry, and he doesn't give anything on the rebound. B+

Fraser Gehrig - Smart leading forward who needs excellent delivery if he is to have any impact. If it is kicked well to him he'll kick plenty of goals and if he doesn't get the delivery he won't. Simple as that. He doesn't create goals, apply defensive pressure, support the midfield or win the ball at ground level. Not suited to a game plan that involves frequent flooding and slow ball movement. C+

Steven Baker - Good tagger who can also win his own footy. Not hugely damaging and he won't keep a star midfielder to 10 possessions, but he earns a spot in the team. C+

Leigh Montagna - Very good running midfielder. Good pace, solid skills, good endurance and ball-winning ability. Not elite, but a good all-round package and we need more of his type. B

Nick Riewoldt - One of the best players in the competition. Elite endurance and marking ability. Covers a huge amount of ground, is very consistent and will usually convert simple shots at goal. However he does need space to lead into and a midfield flood from the opposition can restrict him. A

Adam Schneider - Good goalkicking midfielder. Finds plenty of the ball and uses it well. Doesn't have much of a defensive game and he does drift in and out of games a bit, but is a true asset to the team. B-

Luke Ball - Excellent inside game but offers absolutely nothing else. If he has skilled runners feeding off him then he could be very effective, but if he isn't supported then his inside work is wasted. C+

Michael Gardiner - When fit he has reasonable tap work and reads the play very well. Is just starting to get some confidence in himself and is flying for marks and backing himself to get to more contests. His skills aren't particularly sharp but he kicks it long and tries to give his teammates the advantage in the contest. Potentially an above-average number one ruckman, but needs to string a good two months of footy together first. C+

Raph Clarke - Has a good defensive game and his skills are generally good, however he has laspes on concerntration which can cost the team pointless goals. He seems to be permanently rusty, and unless this changes he should not be kept in the side. C-

Aaron Fiora - Good backup outside midfielder. He comes on the ground, works hard to make an option in the midfield and generally uses the ball well. Has no inside game, however he is one of the few players at the club with fitness, pace and skill. C

Brendon Goddard - NA

Sam Gilbert - He is a good offensive half back or wingman, however he is being taught to play as a key defender. This may be good for him in the long run, however right now he is playing ordinary footy and probably doesn't deserve a spot in the team. C-

David Armitage - NA

Matthew Ferguson - Can do a reasonable job as a medium defender, but has no attributes that make him stand out. Backup only. D

Shane Birss - Reasonable backup midfielder with no huge strengths or weaknesses. He can hold his own at AFL level, but isn't best 22 material. C-

Justin Koschitzke - Inconsistent ruckman/forward with good marking, mobility and courage however struggles to read the play as a forward and his goalkicking has been poor. As a ruckman he is beaten in the hitouts however is excellent around the ground. C+

Sean Dempster - NA

Sam Fisher - Elite rebounding defender. His offensive game is brilliant and can perform a negating job when required. Very good skills, composure and reading of the play. Plays best when able to play on a weaker opposition tall/medium forward. A

Nick Dal Santo - Midfielder with brilliant skills and composure, though constantly fades in and out of games. When onball his inside game is also good, though he has no accountability whatsoever. B-

Jason Blake - Utility who can play any position on the ground and do an almost acceptable job. He is in the side for the ensurance he provides in case we lose a player during the game and also because he is one of the few players at St Kilda with elite fitness. Skills and pace below average. C-

Charlie Gardiner - Medium forward who has limited skills, but can provide a solid marking option coming out of defence. Will not kick goals at this level, though his workrate allows him to get some distance on his opponent on long leads to the wing. C-

Michael Rix - Poor ruckman who offers nothing more than durability and ensurance. Tap work poor, skills terrible and has no idea how to read the play. Does not use his bulk to monster opponents. D-

Brad Howard - NA

Matt Maguire - NA

Andrew McQualter - Small tagger who can get the ball but doesn't break the lines and rarely kicks more than 30m. Not AFL quality. D-

James Gwilt - Strong, skilled medium/tall defender who struggles to stay fit and lacks a bit of pace. Looks lost when played further up the ground and doesn't have great ground-level skills. C-

Jack Steven - NA

Robert Harvey - Good backup outside midfielder who runs hard to get the footy and has excellent delivery into the forward line. Lacks pace but is a quick thinker and rarely gets in trouble. C+

Jarryd Allen - NA

Eljay Connors - NA

Clinton Jones - Hard working midfielder/forward with good pace and fitness but poor skills, terrible composure and decision-making. Not up to AFL standard. D

Luke van Rheenen - NA

Robert Eddy - NA

Glen Chivers - NA

Jarryn Geary - Smart running flanker with solid skills and good composure. Not a dominant player, but capable at AFL level and could play in a number of different roles. C

Jayden Attard - NA

Stephen Milne - Clever small forward who can get goals from either crumbing or finding space in the forward line and presenting as a marking target. Is reasonably consistent and his defensive pressure is just acceptable. C+

Luke Miles - NA

We have a few very good players, followed by a mass of average players. We need guys like Dal Santo, Xavier Clarke, Kosi and Ball to go up a level as the likes of Bartel, Johnson, Egan, Ling and Kelly did at Geelong. Dropping Raph Clarke and Jason Blake isn't going to solve our problems. They can only be replaced by players with equal or les ability than them. We have a group of GOPS who should be guns. They are the players who can make the difference.

[Saintschampions08]

Steven Baker - Good tagger who can also win his own footy. Not hugely damaging and he won't keep a star midfielder to 10 possessions, but he earns a spot in the team. C+

I think you might have forgotten what he was like

You should ask Judd, or Davey (two that spring to mind) whether they got kept to 10 possessions, and whether he was hugely damaging.

[mad saint guy]

I think you might have forgotten what he was like

You should ask Judd, or Davey (two that spring to mind) whether they got kept to 10 possessions, and whether he was hugely damaging.

When has he done that recently? That is exactly the point of my post. Our players are living off their reputations from 2004-2005, but in the past couple of years they simply haven't been that good. We (and the media) see names, think of the great things they have done and mark them down as stars, regardless of their form in the past couple of years.

[The Peanut]

Pretty fair assessment - much more realistic than many others I have seen lately - the scores especially are fairly close to where I have them.

[Goose is king]

I can remember Gary Ablet giving Baker a touch up. He didn't quite dominate the true talent last year as he had in the past.

[Richter]

Yep. You are basically pointing out the obvious (i don't mean this as a critiscism btw), but nevertheless a cruel, cold, harsh, honest and IMO truthful assessment of where individual players are at.

At a team context it equates to this - where is the midfield penetration? That is what will win flags.

We have been used to having enough hard inside players in the midfield to get us there or thereabouts.

On Friday we really missed the likes of Powell and Thompson. We are now SOFTER in the midfield than 4 years ago but without any injection of pace or youth to back it up.

The other thing which you eloquently point out is that the established guns need to step up. Dal has the ability to be A. Ball has the ability to be B+. X similarly. Add in a returning Goddard, Armitage to be given a chance and show something..... if If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride......

[mad saint guy]

Yep. You are basically pointing out the obvious (i don't mean this as a critiscism btw), but nevertheless a cruel, cold, harsh, honest and IMO truthful assessment of where individual players are at.

Absolutely I am, but it is something that is just pushed aside every year as the club states that we've had a great pre season and everyone is going to have their best season ever. The supporters and media get caught up in fantasy land and then turn rabid once we lose a few.

[saintsRrising]

Yes they are about right...as in terms of where players currently are at.

Mine would be similar....Gwilt is the main one that I would rate lower.


We have too many players such as Dal, X etc who are playing below their potential. Not all players reach their potential.

Others such as Kosi are in between players (ie as ruckman he is ok around he ground, but lousy in tapwork etc; asa key forward he is basicallya mark and kick man....and does not lead or have much in the way of ground skills). many rate him on his 5 game Brownlow streak.....

[mad saint guy]

Yes they are about right...as in terms of where players currently are at.

Mine would be similar....Gwilt is the main one that I would rate lower.

I think C- is fair for Gwilt. Whenever he has been fit an in the seniors he's done a reasonable job. Last year he played a few good games at full back with Max and Goose out (admittedly he had a lot of support). Good skills, strong build, decision-making not too bad. However for a for a fringe player his constant injuries probably will mean that he isn't around in 2009.

[Solar]

It's so sad when you start looking at the next generation coming through. Can allen, stevens, bigmac etc. make the grade, we need alot more B's as you put it. Look at collingwood, they have their players playing at the top of their game.

[Otiman]

How good are we? We're the best team in the competition!

If you think otherwise, go support another team.

[saintsRrising]

How good are we? We're the best team in the competition!
If you think otherwise, go support another team.

Geeze...if I followed that advice I would not have been a Saints fan for the last 4 decades.

You support your team, because they are your team...not because of how good or bad they are in any given year.

[Otiman]

How good are we? We're the best team in the competition!
If you think otherwise, go support another team.

Geeze...if I followed that advice I would not have been a Saints fan for the last 4 decades.

You support your team, because they are your team...not because of how good or bad they are in any given year.

I've decided to ban myself from objective criticism of the team this week, it's good therapy

[hAyES]

I think we have a very good list. What we're missing though is players who win the hard ball. Lenny does it every week, and so does Ball. Compare this to 2004 where it was our specialty and we have a long way to go in this department. If we bring in Armo and have him, Hayes and Ball at most of the stoppages then most of the time we should win the contested ball.

[saintsRrising]

MSG you should re-do your list at Round 22.

Part of what Ross needs to achive is a positive re-rating of our playing list on average.

[Lion Cozi]

I'm a long time reader of Saintsational and I'll like to say that you have an excellent list and should make it at least to the prelim finals this year. Wait until the end of round 12 to make an assessment like this, three games into a season isn't adequate. You never know what can happen in footy, you may just win the next 10 straight, like what you did in 2004. No one knew that Fremantle, the Western Bulldogs would miss out on the finals completely last year after showing promise in 2006.

All you have to do is support them whatever happens.

Good Luck!

[widereceiver]

a fine balanced post MSG.

I fundamentally agree with your ratings but would elevate Bakes into the low Bs

NDS could not possibly rate a B on what he has shown this year. (I can't believe he got votes in some columns for Friday's effort.) I hope he gets it together because there is no finer sight than 26 in full flight and boy! do we need a bit of spark.

[spert]

Look, we're basically OK, and the team probably wont hit peak form until mid season. Once RL finds the right balance, we'll be looking a lot better and we should be pretty good in the second half of the season when it counts

[aussiejones]

""Look, we're basically OK, and the team probably wont hit peak form until mid season. Once RL finds the right balance, we'll be looking a lot better and we should be pretty good in the second half of the season when it counts "

Remember what we wanted last year ...... a full list
That we have .
I would rather a slow start and be on our game later in the year.

Still though I hope we can forget the dooggies game soon.

May just be the wake up needed ?

[meher baba]

The team is not going well. Hence, many of our players - including some of our stars - are not looking that flash.

Rewind to Geelong in 2006: many of their players were not looking like world beaters either.

The fact is, significantly more than half the coaches in the comp would happily swap their list for ours: including, I suspect, Rodney Eade.

Our list is good. We have some very penetrative midfielders - Ball, Dal, Hayes, Harves, Joey, X, BJ, potentially Armo, perhaps Birss. In recent matches, I have not seen enough of these players actually playing in the middle of the field - especially at centre bounces - all at the same time: except, oddly enough, for the first quarter against the Dogs.

Much of the rest of the time, I have seen the likes of Dal and Joey playing well back and the likes of Fish and Blake in the middle tagging.

Perhaps if Barney the Dinosaur was prepared to give our midfield a proper go at playing like a midfield, we might see something different. Basically the same group of players used to regularly dominate in 2004-06.

[meher baba]

""Look, we're basically OK, and the team probably wont hit peak form until mid season. Once RL finds the right balance, we'll be looking a lot better and we should be pretty good in the second half of the season when it counts "

Remember what we wanted last year ...... a full list
That we have .
I would rather a slow start and be on our game later in the year.

Still though I hope we can forget the dooggies game soon.

May just be the wake up needed ?

A wake up call to the Board IMO...........

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were paying a great deal of attention.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Unlike many posting in response, I disagree with a number of the individual assessments )I'd rate Ball a B on last years form. I'd rate Dal a B+ or A- (didn't like his game on Friday though), I'd rate Kosi a B... I also suggest that it should be remembered Baker is one of the rare taggers who can shut down in and unders. There are others that +/- I'd either up or down a single rating). However, I don't think that's actually the issue, and I can understand where all of those ratings come from, and I respect the opinions as put forward.

I think the biggest issue the Saints have is that they're not able to play games on their own terms. They don't have the games decided by their A players, or those who are close to being A players. Other teams successfully isolate Jason Blake with the ball late in the game. Dal Santo when tagged is taken off the ball... and of course injuries over the last 3 years have rarely seen the bulk of our good players all playing at the same time.

Playing good team football will make less able lists look good... equally, not playing good team football will make quality lists look bad.

[Persuader]

This is actually a very positive post - in that it demonstrates there is such room for improvement. This is how we'll lift. If our team was playing to its full potential and we were being smashed, then we'd really have problems.
I just wonder if our game plan suits the type of player we have. Can it be that fundamental?
Also have to vehemently disagree with the assessment of Baker - is so much more than a tagger. Has the ability to be an elite midfielder and I think it will happen if he's ever allowed back on the park.

[saintsRrising]

I thought MSG's excellent early season post was worth re-visiting.

I have typed in bold my current ratings in front of his earlier work for each player..

Unfortunately while some have improved..the trend is that many have gone backwards.

A = Superstar of the competition. Absolute elite. You won't find more than 3 or 4 of these at any club
B = Very good, consistent, effective player. These guys are the ones who can step up every few weeks into A grade form and win you games. Most teams would want at least 5 of them.
C = The bulk of the team. C+ is more than comfortable at AFL level, while C- can usually hold his own, but only just.
D = Not AFL standard. Backup in an area in which a team is lacking and likely candidates for delisting.

Now C- Jason Gram - Good rebounder who struggles defensively and has no inside game whatsoever. Skills can be damaging but also unreliable. If let loose can cause trouble, but is easily stifled with a tag. B-

C+ Steven King - Solid backup ruckman. Wins hitouts but can't direct them. Positions himself well around the ground but lacks the overhead marking to have any real impact. C

C Xavier Clarke - Inconsistent midfielder/half forward who shows flashes of brilliance but also goes missing far too often. His skills and effort are elite, but doesn't get enough of the ball to be considered a great player. C+

Ben McEvoy - NA

C- Leigh Fisher - Fairly effective tagger, but offers little else. His skills are reasonable, he is good overhead and has good ground level skills, but doesn't hurt the opposition with the ball and doesn't rack up possessions. Too slow to play on most small forwards. C

A Lenny Hayes - Excellent inside game, but is not hugely damaging with the ball and needs skilled runners supporting him if he is to make a real difference. B+

B+ Max Hudghton - When fit he is the best negating defender in the competition. Brilliant spoiling technique, excellent timing and good closing speed. His durability however is a massive worry, and he doesn't give anything on the rebound. B+

D Fraser Gehrig - Smart leading forward who needs excellent delivery if he is to have any impact. If it is kicked well to him he'll kick plenty of goals and if he doesn't get the delivery he won't. Simple as that. He doesn't create goals, apply defensive pressure, support the midfield or win the ball at ground level. Not suited to a game plan that involves frequent flooding and slow ball movement. C+

cannot really rank Steven Baker - Good tagger who can also win his own footy. Not hugely damaging and he won't keep a star midfielder to 10 possessions, but he earns a spot in the team. C+

B- Leigh Montagna - Very good running midfielder. Good pace, solid skills, good endurance and ball-winning ability. Not elite, but a good all-round package and we need more of his type. B

A- (fitness has been restricting him I think... Nick Riewoldt - One of the best players in the competition. Elite endurance and marking ability. Covers a huge amount of ground, is very consistent and will usually convert simple shots at goal. However he does need space to lead into and a midfield flood from the opposition can restrict him. A

C- Adam Schneider - Good goalkicking midfielder. Finds plenty of the ball and uses it well. Doesn't have much of a defensive game and he does drift in and out of games a bit, but is a true asset to the team. B-

C+++++ is on the improve but needs to use the ball more effectively to bea B Luke Ball - Excellent inside game but offers absolutely nothing else. If he has skilled runners feeding off him then he could be very effective, but if he isn't supported then his inside work is wasted. C+

C+ Michael Gardiner - When fit he has reasonable tap work and reads the play very well. Is just starting to get some confidence in himself and is flying for marks and backing himself to get to more contests. His skills aren't particularly sharp but he kicks it long and tries to give his teammates the advantage in the contest. Potentially an above-average number one ruckman, but needs to string a good two months of footy together first. C+

D Raph Clarke - Has a good defensive game and his skills are generally good, however he has laspes on concerntration which can cost the team pointless goals. He seems to be permanently rusty, and unless this changes he should not be kept in the side. C-

D Aaron Fiora - Good backup outside midfielder. He comes on the ground, works hard to make an option in the midfield and generally uses the ball well. Has no inside game, however he is one of the few players at the club with fitness, pace and skill. C

B- Brendon Goddard - NA

C Sam Gilbert - He is a good offensive half back or wingman, however he is being taught to play as a key defender. This may be good for him in the long run, however right now he is playing ordinary footy and probably doesn't deserve a spot in the team. C-

C David Armitage - NA

NA, though has done enough at Casey to earn another chance. Matthew Ferguson - Can do a reasonable job as a medium defender, but has no attributes that make him stand out. Backup only. D

C+ Shane Birss - Reasonable backup midfielder with no huge strengths or weaknesses. He can hold his own at AFL level, but isn't best 22 material. C-

C Justin Koschitzke - Inconsistent ruckman/forward with good marking, mobility and courage however struggles to read the play as a forward and his goalkicking has been poor. As a ruckman he is beaten in the hitouts however is excellent around the ground. C+

C- Sean Dempster - NA

A Sam Fisher - Elite rebounding defender. His offensive game is brilliant and can perform a negating job when required. Very good skills, composure and reading of the play. Plays best when able to play on a weaker opposition tall/medium forward. A

B Nick Dal Santo - Midfielder with brilliant skills and composure, though constantly fades in and out of games. When onball his inside game is also good, though he has no accountability whatsoever. B-

C- Jason Blake - Utility who can play any position on the ground and do an almost acceptable job. He is in the side for the ensurance he provides in case we lose a player during the game and also because he is one of the few players at St Kilda with elite fitness. Skills and pace below average. C-

C- Charlie Gardiner - Medium forward who has limited skills, but can provide a solid marking option coming out of defence. Will not kick goals at this level, though his workrate allows him to get some distance on his opponent on long leads to the wing. C-

D Michael Rix - Poor ruckman who offers nothing more than durability and ensurance. Tap work poor, skills terrible and has no idea how to read the play. Does not use his bulk to monster opponents. D-

Brad Howard - NA

C- Matt Maguire - NA

May be worth a go now after improved VFL form...Andrew McQualter - Small tagger who can get the ball but doesn't break the lines and rarely kicks more than 30m. Not AFL quality. D-

Has not really shown much at Casey this year on a consistent basis. James Gwilt - Strong, skilled medium/tall defender who struggles to stay fit and lacks a bit of pace. Looks lost when played further up the ground and doesn't have great ground-level skills. C-

Jack Steven - NA

A- Robert Harvey - Good backup outside midfielder who runs hard to get the footy and has excellent delivery into the forward line. Lacks pace but is a quick thinker and rarely gets in trouble. C+

Jarryd Allen - NA

Eljay Connors - NA

C to C- Clinton Jones - Hard working midfielder/forward with good pace and fitness but poor skills, terrible composure and decision-making. Not up to AFL standard. D

Luke van Rheenen - NA

Robert Eddy - NA

Glen Chivers - NA

C- Jarryn Geary - Smart running flanker with solid skills and good composure. Not a dominant player, but capable at AFL level and could play in a number of different roles. C

Jayden Attard - NA

B- Stephen Milne - Clever small forward who can get goals from either crumbing or finding space in the forward line and presenting as a marking target. Is reasonably consistent and his defensive pressure is just acceptable. C+

Luke Miles - NA

[congorozides]

Pretty fair assessment - much more realistic than many others I have seen lately - the scores especially are fairly close to where I have them.

same here. sober, objective and honest assesment. similar to what other clubs would think of us.