We could be a very good side.

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

chook23
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7260
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:31am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 136 times

Post: # 546773Post chook23 »

The_Dud wrote:chook, do you watch the game?

not manning up spare players in our forward line who REPEATEDLY hurt us, two weeks in a row, is ALL the coach's box
do you!!!!

Ist quarter very good last week and this ......

WE could not sustain.......

fitness? leg speed exposed over journey......

Player based

sloppy skills.......sloppy defensive skills in contests.....


watched the game and understood what happened.........

you accused me of not watching :roll:

maybe you just don't undertand :wink:

COULD NOT SUSTAIN A GAMEPLAN that was OK in first.......


saint4life
saintsrus
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2324
Joined: Sat 01 Oct 2005 5:10pm
Location: F.K.A. saintsforlife
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: We could be a very good side.

Post: # 546780Post saintsrus »

LENNY LEADS THE WAY wrote:
The_Dud wrote:
st.byron wrote:Dal Santo soft as.
i'll have to disagree there, went in hard many times today, was at the bottom of many packs, had a few good clearences in close
Spot on Dud, Dal wasn't great today but he clearly went in hard why can't people see this
We must have been at different games, what I saw was he got the old fashioned towelling up today from Ling


Before Im 85
SainterX
Club Player
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat 08 Mar 2008 10:11pm

Post: # 546785Post SainterX »

Chook have you considered then that the gameplan may be too taxing physically and/or mentally if they cannot sustain it past the 1st quarter? If that is the case then you must admit something is wrong. The players don't make the game plan, the coach does.


chook23
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7260
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:31am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 136 times

Post: # 546804Post chook23 »

SainterX wrote:Chook have you considered then that the gameplan may be too taxing physically and/or mentally if they cannot sustain it past the 1st quarter? If that is the case then you must admit something is wrong. The players don't make the game plan, the coach does.
understand that...

If it was the full flood........back and forth....would be extra taxing.
YES

the game plan in the 1st of both last and this was not that......

WE could not SUSTAIN the the intensity etc......fitness....fitness/ability.....

Geelong sustained longer......

maybe just .....overated.....

all teams capable just others for longer.


saint4life
User avatar
The_Dud
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13520
Joined: Sun 27 May 2007 9:53pm
Location: Bendigo
Has thanked: 1308 times
Been thanked: 2012 times

Post: # 546807Post The_Dud »

chook23 wrote:
SainterX wrote:Chook have you considered then that the gameplan may be too taxing physically and/or mentally if they cannot sustain it past the 1st quarter? If that is the case then you must admit something is wrong. The players don't make the game plan, the coach does.
understand that...

If it was the full flood........back and forth....would be extra taxing.
YES

the game plan in the 1st of both last and this was not that......

WE could not SUSTAIN the the intensity etc......fitness....fitness/ability.....

Geelong sustained longer......

maybe just .....overated.....

all teams capable just others for longer.
whats fitness or sustaining a gameplan got to do with the Coach not manning up loose players in defense?


All posters are equal, but some posters are more equal than others.
SainterX
Club Player
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat 08 Mar 2008 10:11pm

Post: # 546808Post SainterX »

well we got Dave Misson, the supposedly super Sydney Swans guy who kept them injury free and fully fit in their grand final years so what else can we do?


User avatar
Saints43
Club Player
Posts: 1826
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:01pm
Location: L2 A38
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Post: # 546849Post Saints43 »

barks4eva wrote:What was wrong with the game plan in the first quarter, hey?
What was wrong with the game plan in the first quarter last week?

FRICKEN NOTHING, we just don't have the leg speed or skill levels to match others sides that do have thses things in abundance.
Has it ever occurred to you the that it is the players who execute the gameplan so effectively in these first quarters?

The opposition coaches then get a go at countering the plan.

And we start getting beaten.

Players don't get slower and less skilled in the second quarter.

The_Dud is right when talking about zoning, coralling, limiting damage before any has been inflicted. It's negative. Gutless.

We seem to be getting not much out of plenty.

Have a look at our first quarters? Fair dinkum? Have a look at the whole game.



Lets face it - Your first solution was Rix - now it's Ferguson. And you reckon others are clueless...


Harvey To Hayes
Club Player
Posts: 716
Joined: Fri 09 Apr 2004 1:04pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Post: # 546861Post Harvey To Hayes »

barks4eva wrote:
Harvey To Hayes wrote:Blake did Ok today. Linked well and set up a lot of forward thrusts. Getting better, some are late bloomers...
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Any chance of you getting a clue sometime, or are you really at the end of the day, that stupid?

FAIR DINKUM
OMG, I just got owned by the biggest wanker ever to post on the internet. Sucks to be me...

Out: Blake In: Rix?

At least you finally did a post that didn't regurgitate the same flaccid moronisms about GT. I guess congratulations are in order...

As I have said many times in the past, I am appalled that you use a pseudonym invoking the memory of such a great player and clubman to post your pathetic and inane drivel. It's an insult to a great man...


The future's so bright I've got to wear shades...
User avatar
barks4eva
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10748
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:39pm
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 92 times

Post: # 546896Post barks4eva »

Harvey To Hayes wrote:
to post your pathetic and inane drivel.

Harvey To Hayes wrote:Blake did Ok today. Linked well and set up a lot of forward thrusts. Getting better, some are late bloomers...
pfft.....and you accuse me of pathetic and inane drivel

you're post above shows what a complete clueless tosser you are

FAIR DINKUM


DO THE MATHS AND THE SQUARES ARE ALL ROOTED.
Harvey To Hayes
Club Player
Posts: 716
Joined: Fri 09 Apr 2004 1:04pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Post: # 546899Post Harvey To Hayes »

barks4eva wrote:
Harvey To Hayes wrote:
to post your pathetic and inane drivel.

Harvey To Hayes wrote:Blake did Ok today. Linked well and set up a lot of forward thrusts. Getting better, some are late bloomers...
pfft.....and you accuse me of pathetic and inane drivel

you're post above shows what a complete clueless tosser you are

FAIR DINKUM
Mate if I come on here to post an opinion about today's game I shouldn't be subjected to moronic taunts by some internet cowboy who clearly has no life skills, let alone any relevant ideas about the St. Kilda Football Club. You seriously are a liability to this forum, and an embrassment to Saints supporters everywhere. Why don't you bite the bullet and buy a Richmond membership, you'd fit in well there...


The future's so bright I've got to wear shades...
User avatar
rodgerfox
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9059
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 9:10am
Has thanked: 425 times
Been thanked: 327 times

Post: # 546957Post rodgerfox »

barks4eva wrote:
What was wrong with the game plan in the first quarter, hey?
What was wrong with the game plan in the first quarter last week?

FRICKEN NOTHING, we just don't have the leg speed or skill levels to match others sides that do have thses things in abundance.
What was wrong with the list in the first quarter? What was wrong with their speed?

What was wrong with the list in the first quarter last week? What was wrong with their speed in the first quarter last week?


User avatar
rodgerfox
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9059
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 9:10am
Has thanked: 425 times
Been thanked: 327 times

Post: # 546963Post rodgerfox »

Saints43 wrote: Lets face it - Your first solution was Rix - now it's Ferguson. And you reckon others are clueless...
You'll learn quite quickly as to why AndrewBolt4Eva rarely actually talks about football, and prefers to talk about GT.

He has no idea. Get's it wrong every time. It's very funny.

Rod Butterss was the best there was. We were going to win the flag last year - mark his words. We had the best list in the comp, now that we've got a coach with a clue we'll win the flag. Rix will be AA ruckman this year.

The list just goes on.

It's classic stuff.


Harvey To Hayes
Club Player
Posts: 716
Joined: Fri 09 Apr 2004 1:04pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Post: # 546998Post Harvey To Hayes »

rodgerfox wrote:
Saints43 wrote: Lets face it - Your first solution was Rix - now it's Ferguson. And you reckon others are clueless...
You'll learn quite quickly as to why AndrewBolt4Eva rarely actually talks about football, and prefers to talk about GT.

He has no idea. Get's it wrong every time. It's very funny.

Rod Butterss was the best there was. We were going to win the flag last year - mark his words. We had the best list in the comp, now that we've got a coach with a clue we'll win the flag. Rix will be AA ruckman this year.

The list just goes on.

It's classic stuff.
I've got a sneaking suspicion old mate would be devastated if we won a flag, because he wouldn't have anything to vent his vitriolic waffle on. Pretty sad really....


The future's so bright I've got to wear shades...
kaos theory
Club Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 8:38pm
Been thanked: 25 times

Post: # 547021Post kaos theory »

its the coach's crap gameplan, its the coash who decides not to man up, its the coach who works out the teams structure

the coach SHOULD tell them to play man-on-man, no more loose player in defense

the gameplan is at the root of most of our problems
What utter garbage...

So when the cats players break clear from a clearence or a turn over, our players are supposed to suddenly & miraculously be glued to a cats player so that the cats won't find a loose player when they tear through the center with a series of handballs and quick kicks???

Do you actually understand anything about the game???

Our players (other than anyone performing a hard tag), prior to geelong getting possesion, will have been trying to make space and run free of their oppoents so that they could receive the ball in SPACE (ie. metres CLEAR of a cats player). So then, when a team wins the ball from a turnover or a contested ball, particularly a good one like geelong, the opposition (e.g. us) will ALWAYS appear to be a few yards behind, and out of position.

Its skill errors, failure to execute of the plan/style effectively and a lack of concentration and intensity, which causes the problems, and therefore the players appear to be slow, out of position, and not 'manning up'.

All of this is caused by either 1) lack of skill, or 2) lack of confidence (hence poor/slow decision-making), or a bit of both.

This mindless, idiotic rant about the fnk 'game plan' is stupid. We do not hava a game style of deliberately playing slow, backward, be out of position when the opposition gets the ball.....All this is a CONSEQUENCE of other more fundamental issues atm.


User avatar
groupie1
Club Player
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun 18 Jun 2006 4:21am
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 52 times

blake

Post: # 547331Post groupie1 »

He's too slow, he kicks dreadully, he's got no ability to think, act or move with any urgency and when under pressure, these things get about 30% per cent worse.

Is he a scapegoat? No - not at all. He's just not good enough, that's all.


Couldn't agree more. He is not good enough to play in a premiership side, and needs to be let go. L fisher too - works hard, but too slow. Fiora i'd be happy to see go, although he's better than he used to be.

I'd like to see a L Fisher, Blake, Fiora - less side.


Gordon Fode couldda been Plugga
User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7122
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 472 times

Post: # 547369Post meher baba »

This is the most interesting thread on the current situation at the club that I have read for a while.

There seem to be two main schools of thought

1. the players are too slow, execute poorly, the game has passed them by, they don't try hard enough, aren't skilled enough, never were up to AFL standard, etc., etc.

2. It's the coach and the game plan.

IMO the problem confronting those who keep wanting to choose explanation 1 over explanation 2 is that the reason the Board sacked GT and his coaching staff and replaced them with Lyon and his crew in 2006 was because they believed explanation 2 was the reason we hadn't "gone to the next level".

At half time on the telly yesterday, we were treated to the sight of Archie Fraser - a man with a soccer background, but who has longstanding connections to Paul Roos and the Sydney Swans - telling us time and again that the club had full faith in "Ross Lyon and his game plan".

In 2006, the Board, with active encouragement from Fraser, was persuaded that the reason we lost the 2005 PF was because the Swans were playing "modern football" and we weren't.

Like Butterss and the Board in 2006, many posters on this forum bought that idea lock, stock and barrel, and it's a source of great amusement for me to watch them backpedalling away from it at a rapid rate of knots.

"It's not about the game plan, we can see that the game plan worked ok in the first quarter, the game plan doesn't make players miss their targets, etc, etc."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Saint_in_SA
Club Player
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun 03 Sep 2006 11:52pm

Post: # 547370Post Saint_in_SA »

kaos theory wrote:
its the coach's crap gameplan, its the coash who decides not to man up, its the coach who works out the teams structure

the coach SHOULD tell them to play man-on-man, no more loose player in defense

the gameplan is at the root of most of our problems
What utter garbage...

So when the cats players break clear from a clearence or a turn over, our players are supposed to suddenly & miraculously be glued to a cats player so that the cats won't find a loose player when they tear through the center with a series of handballs and quick kicks???

Do you actually understand anything about the game???

Our players (other than anyone performing a hard tag), prior to geelong getting possesion, will have been trying to make space and run free of their oppoents so that they could receive the ball in SPACE (ie. metres CLEAR of a cats player). So then, when a team wins the ball from a turnover or a contested ball, particularly a good one like geelong, the opposition (e.g. us) will ALWAYS appear to be a few yards behind, and out of position.

Its skill errors, failure to execute of the plan/style effectively and a lack of concentration and intensity, which causes the problems, and therefore the players appear to be slow, out of position, and not 'manning up'.

All of this is caused by either 1) lack of skill, or 2) lack of confidence (hence poor/slow decision-making), or a bit of both.

This mindless, idiotic rant about the fnk 'game plan' is stupid. We do not hava a game style of deliberately playing slow, backward, be out of position when the opposition gets the ball.....All this is a CONSEQUENCE of other more fundamental issues atm.
Spot on Kaos, a major difference between the two sides was our kicking efficiency compared to theirs, that comes down to skill, confidence.... no game plan works effectively if you keep turning the ball over with poor decisions and skills. The amount of times we kicked to Roo when he had two or three blokes on him, and they just ran the ball down to their end was ridiculous and used to happen with the previous mentor..... not good enough. The kicks were OK at times but the DECISION to kick it to him in those circumstances is indeed DUMB.


A-HUH A-HUH A-HUH
brown-coat
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2034
Joined: Wed 03 May 2006 11:18pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 547371Post brown-coat »

As far as i can see....we have a lot of problems.

4 or 5 more losses out of our next 5 games and the players will lose faith in trying.

Gameplan, coach, crappy slow players who can't kick properly, etc etc. It's a collection of problems.

The signs are there for another Watson-esque 1999-2002 era.


User avatar
rodgerfox
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9059
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 9:10am
Has thanked: 425 times
Been thanked: 327 times

Post: # 547408Post rodgerfox »

meher baba wrote:This is the most interesting thread on the current situation at the club that I have read for a while.

There seem to be two main schools of thought

1. the players are too slow, execute poorly, the game has passed them by, they don't try hard enough, aren't skilled enough, never were up to AFL standard, etc., etc.

2. It's the coach and the game plan.

IMO the problem confronting those who keep wanting to choose explanation 1 over explanation 2 is that the reason the Board sacked GT and his coaching staff and replaced them with Lyon and his crew in 2006 was because they believed explanation 2 was the reason we hadn't "gone to the next level".

At half time on the telly yesterday, we were treated to the sight of Archie Fraser - a man with a soccer background, but who has longstanding connections to Paul Roos and the Sydney Swans - telling us time and again that the club had full faith in "Ross Lyon and his game plan".

In 2006, the Board, with active encouragement from Fraser, was persuaded that the reason we lost the 2005 PF was because the Swans were playing "modern football" and we weren't.

Like Butterss and the Board in 2006, many posters on this forum bought that idea lock, stock and barrel, and it's a source of great amusement for me to watch them backpedalling away from it at a rapid rate of knots.

"It's not about the game plan, we can see that the game plan worked ok in the first quarter, the game plan doesn't make players miss their targets, etc, etc."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So true.

So very, very true.


User avatar
Saints43
Club Player
Posts: 1826
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:01pm
Location: L2 A38
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Post: # 547440Post Saints43 »

Saint_in_SA wrote:
kaos theory wrote:
its the coach's crap gameplan, its the coash who decides not to man up, its the coach who works out the teams structure

the coach SHOULD tell them to play man-on-man, no more loose player in defense

the gameplan is at the root of most of our problems
What utter garbage...

So when the cats players break clear from a clearence or a turn over, our players are supposed to suddenly & miraculously be glued to a cats player so that the cats won't find a loose player when they tear through the center with a series of handballs and quick kicks???

Do you actually understand anything about the game???

Our players (other than anyone performing a hard tag), prior to geelong getting possesion, will have been trying to make space and run free of their oppoents so that they could receive the ball in SPACE (ie. metres CLEAR of a cats player). So then, when a team wins the ball from a turnover or a contested ball, particularly a good one like geelong, the opposition (e.g. us) will ALWAYS appear to be a few yards behind, and out of position.

Its skill errors, failure to execute of the plan/style effectively and a lack of concentration and intensity, which causes the problems, and therefore the players appear to be slow, out of position, and not 'manning up'.

All of this is caused by either 1) lack of skill, or 2) lack of confidence (hence poor/slow decision-making), or a bit of both.

This mindless, idiotic rant about the fnk 'game plan' is stupid. We do not hava a game style of deliberately playing slow, backward, be out of position when the opposition gets the ball.....All this is a CONSEQUENCE of other more fundamental issues atm.
Spot on Kaos, a major difference between the two sides was our kicking efficiency compared to theirs, that comes down to skill, confidence.... no game plan works effectively if you keep turning the ball over with poor decisions and skills. The amount of times we kicked to Roo when he had two or three blokes on him, and they just ran the ball down to their end was ridiculous and used to happen with the previous mentor..... not good enough. The kicks were OK at times but the DECISION to kick it to him in those circumstances is indeed DUMB.
When we break from full back - all 16 of them - and we get to the back of the square two of Gehrig/Kossi/Roo are in the goal square 100 meters away from the player with the ball.

No-one in between.

That happened more than 10 times yeserday.

And so we kicked the ball forward to empty space. Not surprisingly this results in a turn over most times.

Is it the kick that causes this or the way we play?

I wonder sometimes if some people who post on this forum actually attend matches. I sometimes watch the replays on telly after the game and while it gives you a great insight into the 'in & under' aspects (Luke Ball is a much better player on TV) it gives no idea of the 'shape' of the team.


devil saint
Club Player
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu 06 Apr 2006 6:38pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 7 times

Post: # 547492Post devil saint »

Prior to 2004 we all went to watch the saints pretty much expecting to lose and if we won it was a bonus. We generally wouldn't get that worked up or upset 'cause it was just a given. Maybe we need to go back to that frame of mind. Maybe we are just not that good. If we keep playing like we have so far this season we are not even a top 8 side let alone a top 4 side and those are the facts. You can't win if you can't hit the target or kick the goals and the saints are crap in both these areas!


bigcarl
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18520
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
Has thanked: 1847 times
Been thanked: 825 times

Post: # 547503Post bigcarl »

rodgerfox wrote:What was wrong with the list in the first quarter? What was wrong with their speed? What was wrong with the list in the first quarter last week? What was wrong with their speed in the first quarter last week?
it is either lack of fitness or something that is happening between the ears of the players.
Last edited by bigcarl on Sun 13 Apr 2008 4:26pm, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
hAyES
Club Player
Posts: 572
Joined: Fri 30 Jul 2004 4:08pm
Has thanked: 1 time

Post: # 547504Post hAyES »

B4E, you can keep making assessments from one quarter of a game while everyone else makes them off last year, the games this year and the footy background that Ross has. We smashed Geelong in a stat that they rarely lose, and yet we still get pumped by 40 points? We're getting the ball, but after that there's absolutely nothing to go to because we were too busy manning up, or we have 18 players in the backline.


maverick
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5011
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:42am
Location: Bayside
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 91 times

Post: # 547519Post maverick »

I think its a bit of both, gameplan and players.

The gameplan differences between all clubs is quite minor I reckon.
Most clubs re load from half back and run in waves kicking spotting up blokes through midfield, who then kick long to key forwards if they have them or spot up kicks to the 50 arc if they don't.

The difference in execution is speed of ball movement, whether that be line breakers through run and carry, or long kicking.

We seem to lack leg speed in run and carry, but also have limited movement from our half forward line to provide the link to our key forwards.

The ball movement is too slow from defence as a consequence which finds us chipping the ball sideways far too often leaving the opposition to flood back giving our forwards no chance.

The game plan is not the problem, the ability to coach on gem day to free players up to execute the game plan is what i question.

In the Doggies game momentum was shifting, why not shift a Gilbert, Raph or BJ forward and send a L Fisher, Dal or X back. Not enough change up in the box to keep the game plan on track for mine. Both in the Doggies and Cats games, we had at least 4 unanswered goals kicked from centre clearances. Why not put Roo in there for a minute or two to swing momentum.

Yeah we need more run, the players are there to do it, mix it up a bit in the coaches box, get something happening in the game when we are challenged. Its what they are paid to do, the last thing we want is a Craig type coach that has an inflexible gameplan that is a PROVEN failure in finals.


User avatar
Iceman234
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6533
Joined: Wed 20 Jul 2005 1:29am

Post: # 547527Post Iceman234 »

maverick wrote:In the Doggies game momentum was shifting, why not shift a Gilbert, Raph or BJ forward and send a L Fisher, Dal or X back. Not enough change up in the box to keep the game plan on track for mine. Both in the Doggies and Cats games, we had at least 4 unanswered goals kicked from centre clearances. Why not put Roo in there for a minute or two to swing momentum.
That paragraph and particularly the last line is the key.

Flexibility to throw some players around, try something different. I think it was early in the third when Geelong burst out and kicked 3 or 4 in a few minutes, ended up being 6.1 without a score to us. After the second goal alarm bells should have been ringing - that's the time to throw Roo in the middle, Kosi to help out at FB; - just for a few minutes is all that may be needed to stem the flow.

But do something.


Post Reply