Skill.......or rather the lack of it...

[saintsRrising]

Game plan...Cat's vs Saints....had probably nothing to to with the result.


The difference was the skill and poise of the players.


The Cats players when there was a goal to be kicked....kicked them.

Yes they had 11 goal kickers..the Saints only 6.

BUT the Saints had 10, yes TEN players that kicked a point, and 14 who kicked a point and or a goal. 14!!!

The Cats had only had 11...so we actually had MORE players having shots at goal than the Cats.

On goalkicking apart from accuracy lack of penetration in our kicking hurt badly...we must have had 4 or 5 shots touched on the line.....most from close range shots.

The Saints had 29 scores to the Cats 31, but the margin was 42 points!!!!!


The Saints field kicking was poor too.

How many times did you see a Saints forward having to stop and prop due to poor delivery whereas Cat forwards ran full pelt at the ball with accurate passes finding their outstretched hands??????


Those berating the Saints game plan are completely oblivious to the fact that the Saints had ample forward entries and shots at goal. There were ample scoring opportunties.

But for sloppy kicks the Saints would have had more goals, should have had more goals....and the Cats should have less goals from way too many turnovers by the Saints.


The harsh reality at present is pure and simply that the Cats players execute far better than the sloppy Saints.


When you look at the individual players from 2004 the Cat's players have continued to improve.

The Saints have quite probably declined in skill level.....maybe treaded water if you are feeling generous.


Now this just not the Saints and Cats.....most teams seem to have a number of players that can slot goals on the run.

The Saints do not.

[SaintBot]

I think I saw somewhere that we have the 2nd worst accuracy for goal in the league, with only Melbourne below us.


Should be hiring a few kicking specialist, or at the least a goal kicking coach

[saint-stu]

Is this something they can turn around as the season progresses, or are they just not up to it?

[saintsRrising]

Yes that could be part of it....we need to develop our players better.

Another part is that over the years that footskills have not rated high enough in the matrix of criteria that go into player selection.

Not saying that every player has to be brilliant....just that on average we seem over a long period of time rercuited too many players with below average footskills.

[saintsRrising]

Is this something they can turn around as the season progresses, or are they just not up to it?

In terms of footskills...I think confidence can play a role..

Certainly pressure or less pressure can too....but many of our poor shots at goal were by players who had ample time to steady and kick.

But a lot of it no...so effectively we have to outperform a team in other ways so that we can overcome our poor kicking.

[brown-coat]

Recruiting players who can't kick the football at a consistently good level.

It's ASTONISHING.

Astounding. What an astounding stuff up from the recruiting department. Too busy endlessly reviewing pointless standing stilll jump tests, hamstring stretchyness, blood pressure and body fat ratio.

Who cares if he can kick! As long as he can gun the beep test. AYE!

This club makes me want to scream sometimes.

[saintsRrising]

From our existing list i would like to seea bias go to guys that havea knack of kicking goals.

For this reason I would keep Milne (9 goals in 4 weeks)......

Play Birrs instead of Blake ( has the knack of kicking goal and can play asa the run with tagger who wins his own ball as well).

I would like to see Armo given a run now....as he has shown that he can kick goals. Lets see if he can do it in the big stuff too now that he is fit.

Fiora who I have stuck up for is out of form....and is not kicking the goals he should. this is a pitty as he has pace and his around the round passes are by and large good.

Gram....opposition coaches of good teams seemed to have sussed him out and are exploiting his weaknesses. there are cals to play him asa mid...but I don't think his ball winning ability is good enough. Time to play Grammy asa HF I think....

3 tall Forwards. i am nota fan of this structure when two are lumbering. Gtrain us past his peak...and osi alos off his. I think the 3 crowd one another...and that effectively you are getting the outut of only two from three.....so only play two. this frees upa place for an extra mobile player in the team...gives us more midfield support and importnatly gives the two big talls moe space to work in.

Joey Of our curent midfielders Joey is the one I fancy most as beeing able to slot golas. I woulf therefore like to see him drifting forward more often.

Dal should be slotting more goals...but does not.

Gilbert Our swing man seems to have the knack of kicking goals too. Not the best field kicker by any means...but he seems to like kicking goals when he goes forward. I think he needs to play both ends....but needs to go forward regularly.

BJ is coming along nicely...I don; want him asa HFF though.
I want him across half back with his long and accurtae kicking setting up our forwards.

[Shaggy]

Game plan...Cat's vs Saints....had probably nothing to to with the result.


The difference was the skill and poise of the players.


The Cats players when there was a goal to be kicked....kicked them.

Yes they had 11 goal kickers..the Saints only 6.

BUT the Saints had 10, yes TEN players that kicked a point, and 14 who kicked a point and or a goal. 14!!!

The Cats had only had 11...so we actually had MORE players having shots at goal than the Cats.

On goalkicking apart from accuracy lack of penetration in our kicking hurt badly...we must have had 4 or 5 shots touched on the line.....most from close range shots.

The Saints had 29 scores to the Cats 31, but the margin was 42 points!!!!!


The Saints field kicking was poor too.

How many times did you see a Saints forward having to stop and prop due to poor delivery whereas Cat forwards ran full pelt at the ball with accurate passes finding their outstretched hands??????


Those berating the Saints game plan are completely oblivious to the fact that the Saints had ample forward entries and shots at goal. There were ample scoring opportunties.

But for sloppy kicks the Saints would have had more goals, should have had more goals....and the Cats should have less goals from way too many turnovers by the Saints.


The harsh reality at present is pure and simply that the Cats players execute far better than the sloppy Saints.


When you look at the individual players from 2004 the Cat's players have continued to improve.

The Saints have quite probably declined in skill level.....maybe treaded water if you are feeling generous.


Now this just not the Saints and Cats.....most teams seem to have a number of players that can slot goals on the run.

The Saints do not.

As an analysis of one game that is fair enough.

However looking at the big picture we have only won 8 out of 26 final quarters under RL with points for being 498 and against being 642.

We are the fade outs.

IMO we do not have the requistite superior stamina for RL's game plan. This leads to (1) loss of confidence, and (2) real tiredness. Poor skill and poise of the players is the result and not the cause.

In the first quarters we actually look as good as we ever were from 2004.

[saintsRrising]

I agree about your point of lacking finishing capacity...but I don't think it is due to game plan.....and I cratainly do not believe thata "GT" Plan A game plan would allow them to finish more strongly.

In the first quarters we actually look as good as we ever were from 2004.

I think the problem is that most good teams have improved their skill levels from 2004.....the Saints have not.

I have seen actuallya lot of wasted first quarters from the saints this year...were we have wasted the chance to blow apart games due to poor finishing skills and footskills.

When you are on top in general play you have to exert scoreboard pressure and kick goals.

Given the opportunities the Saints are not actually scoring enough.

Poor footskills meant that at the end of the first quarter that we did not have the healthy lead that we should have.

Ditto for the Swans game.

Games often go in ebbs and flows. When the Saints are flowing it is vital that they nail goals...they often do not.

When the Cats are on a roll...they score and score heavily.



Ifa team is going to play Shock and Awe.....you are let down badly if you do not actually Awe by kicking the goals.

[Shaggy]

I agree about your point of lacking finishing capacity...but I don't think it is due to game plan.....and I cratainly do not believe thata "GT" Plan A game plan would allow them to finish more strongly.

In the first quarters we actually look as good as we ever were from 2004.

I think the problem is that most good teams have improved their skill levels from 2004.....the Saints have not..

This is where we disagree. Under GT's game plan we won 41 out of 70 final quarters in the last 3 years compared to 8 out of 26 under RL. In 2006 we won 14 out of 23 final quarters.

And yet our players now are much more fitter under RL and we don't have the injuries.

Its not that GT was a more astute coach than RL. It is just that GT played a game plan that our list was best at after several years of experimentation.

The essence of the cats is their midfield which primarily were drafted back in the late 1990's. The game changes when strong cores reach their peak/maturity and depending upon their specific strengths that is where the new focus is (but it tends to be 10 years too late in drafting).

Skill levels may have improved (as they always will) primarily due to under age coaching. Most footballers have 10+ years of football before being drafted. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks (Loewe being the major exception). There will always be a gradual improvement in skills in the draftees but it takes years to take effect at AFL level.

[saintsRrising]

This is where we disagree. Under GT's game plan we won 41 out of 70 final quarters in the last 3 years compared to 8 out of 26 under RL. In 2006 we won 14 out of 23 final quarters.

.

So bearing in mind that post-Bonnie Doon when the Saints win loss ratio improved when GT finally adopted Plan B anda more defensive game planwhich included flooding.....your figures would seem to show that GT's succes rate went up when he had the players run more.

[bobmurray]

Yes that could be part of it....we need to develop our players better.

Another part is that over the years that footskills have not rated high enough in the matrix of criteria that go into player selection.

Not saying that every player has to be brilliant....just that on average we seem over a long period of time rercuited too many players with below average footskills.

I think when you use the same recruiter over a reasonable amount of time you get players with similar skills and similar weaknesses.Obviously footskills were not the main criteria when selecting our recruits.I wish we had more players who win more contested footy than their opponent........

I remember posters on here saying we should recruit Cyril Rioli with our first round draft pick...he'd be a handy type right now....

[GrumpyOne]

Top series of posts SRR.

IMO you are correct every inch of the way.

As I said in another post - accuracy is the key.... the cats had it, we did not.

[Sam23]

Agree, we lost on Saturday due to our foot skills and goal accuracy, not because of endeavor.

A few times throughout the match, we'd control the game for 5-6 minutes, kick 3 points, they'd run it up the other end with their awesome foot skills and kick a goal.

Things I noticed throughout the game -

1. Riewoldt is pretty reliable in front of goals these days, one bad miss in the end, but, much rather have him kicking for goal than just about anyone except for Gehrig.

2. Geelongs midfielders kicks goals, Goddard, first scoring shot of the day for us, no pressure, 40 out missed. They (Geelong) rarely missed a goal when in a midfielders hands. Ball also missed an easy one when the game was dead.

3. Milne is really looking good this season, using his (rather small) body to edge out Hunt a few times was good, set up 1 or 2 goals and booted a few himself. Kicked 9 goals in 4 games and he looks back to some of his very best stuff.

4. When kicking to players on the lead - Geelong, put the ball around 30 meters in front of their players, really making them work to get their and a lot of the time, just getting their, diving to take the mark. While we, kick it straight at our players, not in front of them. This gives us no time to get a real break on our opponents and often results in it going over the head of our player.

5. Really liked how we played, on saturday. You can see what Ross is trying to do, and to say it's a defensive game is stupid. Geelong actually played quite similar to us but looked much quicker due to their superior foot skills and awareness.

6. Ball is looking better every week. Still can't kick over 40 meters but is obviously getting better each week for mine. You can see the base of a gun is still their, just hopefully the gun comes to the surface.

7. Goal Accuracy, already mentioned this in a previous point although i don't think I put enough emphasis into this. 2 less scoring shots for a 7 goal loss. Not acceptable. Kicking goals from 45 and 35 meters out should be a lock, simply don't put enough of our shots through the big sticks. 4.7 after 1 quarter, and instead of being 3 goals up we were just 1.

8. At the moment, we are a 4-8 side I think and while our foot skills and goal accuracy is low, I don't think we can finish higher than 4th unless we receive a lot of luck.

9. Gehrig needs to improve rapidly, still a very good kick. Need to start looking for him more perhaps?

10. It seems that 60% of our forward attacks go through Riewoldt, I think this is because his the only one of the forwards moving. Gehrig and Koschitzke often standing their signaling "Kick it Long". Need to get Koschitzke on the move in the forward line.

11. We aren't 'that far' behind Geelong. A 4 goal loss would've been a an accurate result I think. They are a very good football side though and for about 30 minutes from the 15th minute mark of the 2nd to the 20th minute mark of the 3rd were virtually impossible to compete with. Their strength around the ball and to flick the ball out when getting tackled was second to none. Midfielders getting back to make it a pack mark situation at every opportunity was very good.

[Otiman]

I would also argue that running ability and speed was a huge factor in our loss. The amount of times we trailed our opponents by more than 2m was astonishing. Probably not noticable on TV, but it looked like we were about 3 strides slower at every contest.

[GrumpyOne]

Agree, we lost on Saturday due to our foot skills and goal accuracy, not because of endeavor.

A few times throughout the match, we'd control the game for 5-6 minutes, kick 3 points, they'd run it up the other end with their awesome foot skills and kick a goal.

Things I noticed throughout the game -

1. Riewoldt is pretty reliable in front of goals these days, one bad miss in the end, but, much rather have him kicking for goal than just about anyone except for Gehrig.

2. Geelongs midfielders kicks goals, Goddard, first scoring shot of the day for us, no pressure, 40 out missed. They (Geelong) rarely missed a goal when in a midfielders hands. Ball also missed an easy one when the game was dead.

3. Milne is really looking good this season, using his (rather small) body to edge out Hunt a few times was good, set up 1 or 2 goals and booted a few himself. Kicked 9 goals in 4 games and he looks back to some of his very best stuff.

4. When kicking to players on the lead - Geelong, put the ball around 30 meters in front of their players, really making them work to get their and a lot of the time, just getting their, diving to take the mark. While we, kick it straight at our players, not in front of them. This gives us no time to get a real break on our opponents and often results in it going over the head of our player.

5. Really liked how we played, on saturday. You can see what Ross is trying to do, and to say it's a defensive game is stupid. Geelong actually played quite similar to us but looked much quicker due to their superior foot skills and awareness.

6. Ball is looking better every week. Still can't kick over 40 meters but is obviously getting better each week for mine. You can see the base of a gun is still their, just hopefully the gun comes to the surface.

7. Goal Accuracy, already mentioned this in a previous point although i don't think I put enough emphasis into this. 2 less scoring shots for a 7 goal loss. Not acceptable. Kicking goals from 45 and 35 meters out should be a lock, simply don't put enough of our shots through the big sticks. 4.7 after 1 quarter, and instead of being 3 goals up we were just 1.

8. At the moment, we are a 4-8 side I think and while our foot skills and goal accuracy is low, I don't think we can finish higher than 4th unless we receive a lot of luck.

9. Gehrig needs to improve rapidly, still a very good kick. Need to start looking for him more perhaps?

10. It seems that 60% of our forward attacks go through Riewoldt, I think this is because his the only one of the forwards moving. Gehrig and Koschitzke often standing their signaling "Kick it Long". Need to get Koschitzke on the move in the forward line.

11. We aren't 'that far' behind Geelong. A 4 goal loss would've been a an accurate result I think. They are a very good football side though and for about 30 minutes from the 15th minute mark of the 2nd to the 20th minute mark of the 3rd were virtually impossible to compete with. Their strength around the ball and to flick the ball out when getting tackled was second to none. Midfielders getting back to make it a pack mark situation at every opportunity was very good.

Good post Sam.

Much better than the play the kids sack the coach rubbish on the other threads.

[Shaggy]

This is where we disagree. Under GT's game plan we won 41 out of 70 final quarters in the last 3 years compared to 8 out of 26 under RL. In 2006 we won 14 out of 23 final quarters.

.

So bearing in mind that post-Bonnie Doon when the Saints win loss ratio improved when GT finally adopted Plan B anda more defensive game planwhich included flooding.....your figures would seem to show that GT's succes rate went up when he had the players run more.

Thats what I liked about GT. He would adapt and experiment.

But the figures actually show that the Saints were consistently good from 2004 under GT. GT always did adapt our game plan. RL does too but they are they coming from different corners. GT reached his corner through experimentation with the list. RL reached his corner through his Swans experience.

No question GTs way is much more suited to our current list even with 2 drafts gone.

I made some very good money in 2006 after hitting on the Saints after our Adelaide loss half way through the season. We were still in the 8 after GT made the biggest stuff up by giving us the lightest pre-season a club has ever seen to get over the injuries. We were an unfit side and yet still in the 8 at the half way mark with alot of key players to come back.

We were a very under done team in 2006 and it cost GT his postion as coach.

I really made some very good money on the Saints in 2006 on multiple bets at the half way mark ( and haven't bet since on the Saints).

But RL really has it all wrong for our list.

[kalsaint]

Agree, we lost on Saturday due to our foot skills and goal accuracy, not because of endeavor.

A few times throughout the match, we'd control the game for 5-6 minutes, kick 3 points, they'd run it up the other end with their awesome foot skills and kick a goal.

Things I noticed throughout the game -

1. Riewoldt is pretty reliable in front of goals these days, one bad miss in the end, but, much rather have him kicking for goal than just about anyone except for Gehrig.

2. Geelongs midfielders kicks goals, Goddard, first scoring shot of the day for us, no pressure, 40 out missed. They (Geelong) rarely missed a goal when in a midfielders hands. Ball also missed an easy one when the game was dead.

3. Milne is really looking good this season, using his (rather small) body to edge out Hunt a few times was good, set up 1 or 2 goals and booted a few himself. Kicked 9 goals in 4 games and he looks back to some of his very best stuff.

4. When kicking to players on the lead - Geelong, put the ball around 30 meters in front of their players, really making them work to get their and a lot of the time, just getting their, diving to take the mark. While we, kick it straight at our players, not in front of them. This gives us no time to get a real break on our opponents and often results in it going over the head of our player.

5. Really liked how we played, on saturday. You can see what Ross is trying to do, and to say it's a defensive game is stupid. Geelong actually played quite similar to us but looked much quicker due to their superior foot skills and awareness.

6. Ball is looking better every week. Still can't kick over 40 meters but is obviously getting better each week for mine. You can see the base of a gun is still their, just hopefully the gun comes to the surface.

7. Goal Accuracy, already mentioned this in a previous point although i don't think I put enough emphasis into this. 2 less scoring shots for a 7 goal loss. Not acceptable. Kicking goals from 45 and 35 meters out should be a lock, simply don't put enough of our shots through the big sticks. 4.7 after 1 quarter, and instead of being 3 goals up we were just 1.

8. At the moment, we are a 4-8 side I think and while our foot skills and goal accuracy is low, I don't think we can finish higher than 4th unless we receive a lot of luck.

9. Gehrig needs to improve rapidly, still a very good kick. Need to start looking for him more perhaps?

10. It seems that 60% of our forward attacks go through Riewoldt, I think this is because his the only one of the forwards moving. Gehrig and Koschitzke often standing their signaling "Kick it Long". Need to get Koschitzke on the move in the forward line.

11. We aren't 'that far' behind Geelong. A 4 goal loss would've been a an accurate result I think. They are a very good football side though and for about 30 minutes from the 15th minute mark of the 2nd to the 20th minute mark of the 3rd were virtually impossible to compete with. Their strength around the ball and to flick the ball out when getting tackled was second to none. Midfielders getting back to make it a pack mark situation at every opportunity was very good.

I have bagged Nick's inaccuracy and now realise he has improved this. I apologise. He now needs to ensure that when he leads this is not to pockets to further increase his value.

Yes endeavour was heaps better Satruday over last Friday. The clearance stats show this.

Foot skills let us down in general play and as did set shots in front of goal. It is interesting that Goddard missed the first shot this time around. I rate this guy so highly as he is first class in disposal. We need this guy in the midfield or at half forward.
Reasons are he's:
hard at it at ground level (ie bigger body causing forward pressure),
a great mark (ie more leading forward opportunity, if Charlie Grdiner is not used),
a huge kick (creates doubt for the oppo on whether to protect the goal square or watch for short passes),
has presence around the ball (this should help protect the ball carrier to make better scoring positions and generally elevate the value of our midfielders, they will start to score with protection).

[Red]

Does anybody think fitness is an issue. We seem to be going quite well in

the first 20 minutes, but after that we seem to be second to the ball.

Skills obviously deteriorate as you tire.

[plugger66]

Does anybody think fitness is an issue. We seem to be going quite well in

the first 20 minutes, but after that we seem to be second to the ball.

Skills obviously deteriorate as you tire.

I would think most if not all sides are as fit as each other. The way we play is very tiring and you will get skill errors because of that.

[saintsRrising]

Does anybody think fitness is an issue. We seem to be going quite well in

the first 20 minutes, but after that we seem to be second to the ball.

Skills obviously deteriorate as you tire.

1/ They do not deteriorate that quickly...and besides....we kicked 4.7 in the first quarter.

Running through the banner is simply not that tiring.

2/On a broader perspective fitness is and always be a an issue.

From our previous endemic high injury we have now dropped back to a "reasonable" injury rate (it would be nice, but completely unrealistic to expect no injuries).

However this previous horrific run while having now been overcome with most players avaialble has also had us entering the season with many "underdone" players.

Lenny Hayes is only now getting back to his best.

BJ is only just back and will get much better.
Ball we all have croosed fingers will continue with his recovery (he is now running much freerer, but still lacks distance and accuracy in his kicking)


Goose is very underdone.


It is my "hope" that our fitness should continue to build and that this will, as one factor, improve our competitiveness in the second half of the year.

However it will not in itslf turn around our current wasteful use of the ball.

From what I read in one article we won the clearances in the first quarter 14 to 2....this should have been converted into a signifcant lead at quarter time. Instead it was wasted.

[saintsRrising]

Footskills at the Saints....when Aussie was at the Saints he stood out for his sublime kicking skills.

However in large part this was due to fact that many of his team mates were average to poor in footskills.


Several years on the saints have not improved in this regard...BUT the rest of the competion has

Apart from BJ who at the Saints has good, let alone superb, footskills????

We basically do not have anyone else!!!!

Dal is ok...but misses easy goals.
Gram has distance...but currently just bangs it aimlessly (with the one exception this year of the NAB GF).

Fiora has his moments....but cannot kick easy goals.

Banger is often sublime at 30m or less, but is another that is goal shy.


GTrain is probably our best and most reliable kick at goal..but he now struggles to grt his hands on the ball.

Joey is pretty reliable...which at the Saints means that he rates as a good kick!!!!





Due to our current poor foot skills, for the Saints to win we virtually have to over-achieve in every other department.

[BringBackMadDog]

However looking at the big picture we have only won 8 out of 26 final quarters under RL with points for being 498 and against being 642.

We are the fade outs.

This is the most telling stat. The fade outs are simply the result of a game plan that requires 80% of the team to run up and down the length of the field for no apparant reason!!! We basically run ourselves into the ground. The Sydney style flooding only works effectively on their postage stamp sh1thole, it does not work on bigger grounds.

[GrumpyOne]

Due to our current poor foot skills, for the Saints to win we virtually have to over-achieve in every other department.

Yes!

[karnaby]

Due to our current poor foot skills, for the Saints to win we virtually have to over-achieve in every other department.

Further to the above: virtually none of our players punishes the opposition by kicking goals from beyond 50m. Frequently we get a mark or free kick at 47-48m and instead of going back and kicking a frigging goal we p1ss around looking for near impossible passes. This makes it heaps easier for our opponents, as for most teams have to defend all of the area out to 55m from goal, whereas against us they only have to try to really lock down an area out to 45m, so there is another facet of the game that we have to do extra to compensate for.