the Luke Ball arguement

[Dan Warna]

Many folks look longingly at Judd and wish we selected him at St Kilda

when we went for Ball, we looked to have our wings in place with some nice talent in Lenny Hayes, Dal Santo, X Clarke and possibly Judd at pick 5, as well as then the ever young thomo, health black and andrew thompson

what ball promised was a more naturally talented version of Burke

as we now know he's suffered for the better part of 1/2 a decade with OP

given that he has been averaging 20 odd possessions a game, 5 clearances and 4 tackles per game.

compared to many 'inside' on ballers, at the end of his career, Luke Ball will be compared with the best 'inside' on ballers st kilda have had.

Also I reckon he'll have a reputation for decency and loyalty and humility on comparison with Robert Harvey.

Chris Judd is the premier player of his type in the competition, he is every bit the wingman nicky winmar was, and perhaps a bit better with the ball, while not as good in the air, Now judd isn't soft, but he's not the in and under player and without the scotlands or Kerrs to shovel it out to him, his return is limited.

For me, folks are crying there is a lack of hardness in st kilda, and yet want to trade one of our hardest players for the past 6 years for another wingman.

a lot of players could learn by WATCHING ball, in fact a lot of fans could learn from watching ball.

he doesn't get the kudo's for dash and delivery, but IMO in the next few years, injury willing, ball has shown he will be the shovel man in the middle every bit as lethal as diesel williams, nathan burke, brett rattan, sam mitchell and co.

folks see dash and glamour but fail to see the hard men that make the dash men work.

I reckon cousins and Kerr, helped judd achieve his potential, Now we need the st kilda midfield to work together to help ball/hayes/dal santo and monty achieve their potential.

Go luke Ball.

I couldn't be happier we scored such a quality individual, such a loyal individual and such a decent human being as one of our players.

Cheers

[rexy]

here here

[JeffDunne]

Both Ball and Judd have their strengths but I've never been disappointed we took Ball.

In hindsight you could mount an argument that one decision might have cost us a flag given how Judd was performing when Ball was injured, but you could also mount an argument that Ball might not have had the problems had his career path been different.

Luke Ball has been as asset from the moment we drafted him.

How could you possibly be disappointed with that?

[BigMart]

Chris Judd - every bit the wingman Nicky Winmar was......

Premiership Captain
3 * Best & Fairest
Brownlow Medal
Norm Smith Medal
Best player in the AFL without Question in 2005/2006

Not sure Nicky (as good as he was) ever reached those heights....Juddy is a superstar....

Judd is not (nor has ever been) a wingman......he is one of the best INSIDE mids in the AFL (S.Mitchell, D.Cross, S.Black, G.Ablett, M.Priddis) and has been for a long time......he is almost entirely 'inside these days...

[Dan Warna]

Chris Judd - every bit the wingman Nicky Winmar was......

Premiership Captain
3 * Best & Fairest
Brownlow Medal
Norm Smith Medal
Best player in the AFL without Question in 2005/2006

Not sure Nicky (as good as he was) ever reached those heights....Juddy is a superstar....

Judd is not (nor has ever been) a wingman......he is one of the best INSIDE mids in the AFL (S.Mitchell, D.Cross, S.Black, G.Ablett, M.Priddis) and has been for a long time......he is almost entirely 'inside these days...

winmar played 1/2 his career in shyt teams, with limited if any player welfare, player development or modern training techniques.

in the 80s and early 90s st kilda were well behind WCE, essendon and the like in player development.

Winmar was a very very special player on natural talent.

[Stephen Theodore]

Dan Warna wrote:
Winmar was a very very special player on natural talent.

Spot on, St Kilda lagged behind nearly every club in resources in that era. Winmar got by on natural talent alone, and I still dont believe he received the accolades from the football world he should have. There has not been a more natural footballer play the game than Winmar, IMO.

[saintbrat]

was interesting to hear Buckley comment on Ball the other evening-

"hardness, body use magnificent
getting on top of the ground, covering it very well,running into space- in close his toughness and hardness magnificent"

(despite not liking Buckley- possibly just because he got the accolades the Likes of Harvey didn't despite them both having never won a flag)
I always like to hear what others have to say about the Saints- especially those in the ' industry'

[Spinner]

Chris Judd is the premier player of his type in the competition, he is every bit the wingman nicky winmar was, and perhaps a bit better with the ball, while not as good in the air, Now judd isn't soft, but he's not the in and under player and without the scotlands or Kerrs to shovel it out to him, his return is limited.

That statement is wrong on so many levels.

a) It proves that you have only watched highlight reels of Chris Judd.

b) Combined with a) it shows how you haven't taken the time to watch Chris Judd play.

Judds contested possessions are second to none. He actually gets it out himself...and have the talent to run away with it.

Also, calling Scotland an 'in and under' player is almost more of a joke than this thread.

[BigMart]

Nicky winmar was a great player........about two levels below C.Judd...that's how good Judd was/will be...

Those who say N.Winmar was the most naturally gifted footballer ever....umm, Gary Ablett snr....James Hird.....Nathan Buckley....Robert Harvey....Wayne Carey....Michael Voss....Tony Lockett.....Mark Riccutio....

are the best...

I would have Nicky grouped with

P.Matera....A.McLeod......B.Harvey.......D.Jarman.....J.Akermanis......B.Johnson.....Burgoynes......etc..

[plugger66]

Nicky winmar was a great player........about two levels below C.Judd...that's how good Judd was/will be...

Those who say N.Winmar was the most naturally gifted footballer ever....umm, Gary Ablett snr....James Hird.....Nathan Buckley....Robert Harvey....Wayne Carey....Michael Voss....Tony Lockett.....Mark Riccutio....

are the best...

I would have Nicky grouped with

P.Matera....A.McLeod......B.Harvey.......D.Jarman.....J.Akermanis......B.Johnson.....Burgoynes......etc..

That is a very good post.

[starsign]

There was hell of lot to like about Ballys game Friday night, he reminded me heaps of Diesel Williams, and looks like he's finally shaking off the injury he has been bravely carrying all this time
We are yet to see the best of this champion bloke and footballer, stay tuned!

[evertonfc]

Can't be upset we took Ball. He didn't come with the injury issues Judd did - ironic, eh?

However, he must learn how to become Greg Williams v2. He's showing signs; he's lost his pace, so he must learn how to become the game's leading inside midfielder.

[BigMart]

Would like to see him win some outside (easy footy) in general playoccasionally aswell as the contested ball he wins.....needs to be more than a stopage specialist to be a VG player

[n1ck]

I heart Luke Ball.

If he never plays another game, i'll still not regret that we took him.

Quality footballer, quality individual. Will be remembered in 50 years time as one of our best.

Give him time.

[congorozides]

here here

its hear hear

ball is nowhere near judd or hodge.

[congorozides]

I heart Luke Ball.

If he never plays another game, i'll still not regret that we took him.

Quality footballer, quality individual. Will be remembered in 50 years time as one of the best.

Give him time.

you have to be joking.

50 years one of the best?

baldock, lockett, winmar, barker, harvey....

and nathan burke was terrible. so he had "spirit" and courage. but it was a waste of time because he turned it over every time he fought to win.


what u smoking?

[stinger]

good thread.....but to me nicky was simply the best ......on talent alone....as the words of the song go....better than all the rest......he could play anywhere......even as a high marking forward....judd coould never be that ffs........nicky had ball skills the others can simply dream about.....


....for sheahan not to include him in his best 50 footballers shows just what a footballing clown he really is......


sure, carey was stronger.......plugger a better...but not higher ,mark......ablett tougher......but nicky was....well simply .,...nicky...and i loved him....still do.......

[n1ck]

I heart Luke Ball.

If he never plays another game, i'll still not regret that we took him.

Quality footballer, quality individual. Will be remembered in 50 years time as one of the best.

Give him time.

you have to be joking.

50 years one of the best?

baldock, lockett, winmar, barker, harvey....

and nathan burke was terrible. so he had "spirit" and courage. but it was a waste of time because he turned it over every time he fought to win.


what u smoking?

Have you ever watched Luke Ball a game? Get a grip mate.
His clearance work is stunning and getting better. His skills are getting better every game. Just wait till we see the Luke Ball of 2004 again. Would get the clearance, handball out to Dal or Harves who would give it back to him running full pelt and hed slot it from 50 on his left. Watch it happen.

Like I said, in 50 years time, he will be remembered as a St Kilda great.

[Dan Warna]

good thread.....but to me nicky was simply the best ......on talent alone....as the words of the song go....better than all the rest......he could play anywhere......even as a high marking forward....judd coould never be that ffs........nicky had ball skills the others can simply dream about.....


....for sheahan not to include him in his best 50 footballers shows just what a footballing clown he really is......


sure, carey was stronger.......plugger a better...but not higher ,mark......ablett tougher......but nicky was....well simply .,...nicky...and i loved him....still do.......

concur

watching nicky winmar burn off players with blistering speed before drilling goals from 55 metres without any deviation or hitting plugger or heatly or buckets lace out on the chest.

Torps from 70m, he was the most spectacular mark st kilda has had along with trevor barker.

while trevor barker threw himself at the ball like a rag doll, winmar soared to get the ball.

his evasive skills were amazing, running through the centre, and given he played 2 seasons as a HBF he still managed to rack up 320 odd goals in his 250 game career.

IMO had he been in a good team for his whole career, he would be one of the standout players of the 90s, as is many put him along with the best wingman of the era, and natural talent to burn.

I'd say very few players ever have had hte natural ability of winmar.

[Mr Magic]

One of my strongest memories of Nicky's ability was a day at Moorabbin when we played Geelong.
Ablett had been killing teams playing wing/hff and the Coach ( don't recall who?) decided to play Nicky on him.

What an afternoon!
It seemed like they were taking turns at using each other as a step-ladder to take marks - each one trying to outdo the other.

[Dan Warna]

yeah winmars good games were breathtaking, just swanning around the wing, ripping tackles that left opposition players rubbing their bruises, soaring marks that left players counting the stud marks on their shoulders and lace out drilled passes that you could here the 'oof' as it slotted into their guts.

strangely I can't remember too many winmar handpasses.

[markinUSA]

I agree... Nicky was a champion. Champion.

And he could do everything - Dan, I do remember him handpassing... and is handpasses were spearing - they were so fast and well-aimed. He could create opportunities in many, many ways.

Definitely one of the best I've ever, ever seen.

Him and Plugger... don't get me started! I'll never stop!

[yipper]

Winmar to Lockett was on a par with c Marsh b Lillee, Phar Lap and Tommy Woodcock!!

There were a few positives from Friday Night - the big one being Luke Ball. Just brilliant all night - very tough, hard player. Mentally tough (unlike most of his teammates) - he looks back to his best now.

[jonesy]

Nicky winmar was a great player........about two levels below C.Judd...that's how good Judd was/will be...

Those who say N.Winmar was the most naturally gifted footballer ever....umm, Gary Ablett snr....James Hird.....Nathan Buckley....Robert Harvey....Wayne Carey....Michael Voss....Tony Lockett.....Mark Riccutio....

are the best...

I would have Nicky grouped with

P.Matera....A.McLeod......B.Harvey.......D.Jarman.....J.Akermanis......B.Johnson.....Burgoynes......etc..

Please!
You're telling me Bangers is a more naturally gifted footballer than Winmar?? No question bangers is better,but not even in the same stratosphere on natural talent than Nicky. That's just ridiculous. The names you quote,only Ablett could be argued to more naturally talented,and I'd argue that Winmar was a far superior tackler than Gary ever was. Nicky didn't have an flaws in his technical game,he was perfect at everything. His only deficiency was the mental side of it all.
Nicky's only downfall was his consistency,no arguments there. He was brilliant one week,then gone the next

Unfortunate that he played for a rabble of a club,and in an era that aboriginal footballers copped it hard. Otherwise he'd be talked as one of the greats.

[Red]

Whether we are fans of Luke Ball or not doesn't matter. The fact is that

with Judd we probably would have won a premiership. West Coast won

one because he was in their side. In hindsight and this is hindsight no true

football judge would say you would pick Ball over Judd.