Ben McEvoy selection dilemma?????

[CURLY]

Would the selection of Ben in the seniors go against his development as a ruckmen the role we recruited him for? Playing as a third tall Im confident enough to say he could handle admirally but his ruck time would be limited. Reading reports of his underage football it seems he was played up forward as he could win games from there and didnt ruck as often as his development required. Is this a reason that could hold him back from senior duties the fact we need him to develope his ruckwork?

[ausfatcat]

If we played him non-stop there for the next three years then yes. As a stop gap measure untill Roo comes back to give him a feel for the game at senior level and a few minutes in the ruck will do him a world of good.

[bigcarl]

Playing as a third tall Im confident enough to say he could handle admirally but his ruck time would be limited. Reading reports of his underage football it seems he was played up forward as he could win games from there and didnt ruck as often as his development required. Is this a reason that could hold him back from senior duties the fact we need him to develope his ruckwork?

third tall is often a young ruckman's entree into the big time.

he's maybe not mature enough physically to go all day against the fully-grown monsters, but he can contribute as a tall forward option.

i like what i've seen of mcevoy.

he has sticky fingers and is mobile and an interview with him on saintscentral showed him to be a good type of bloke.

unfortunately for him, another young tall, allen, probably is before him in terms of getting a shot in the forward line.

[fonz_#15]

young ruckmen need time. There is no point bringing him in if he isn't physically developed enough to play in the ruck.

Playing him as a stop gap forward when touted as a ruckmen does nobody any good. he is used to being a ruckman, and if he is introduced to an unfarmiliar position (forward) in a league that is 5 times better than what he is used to from his junior days, a bad game would see a severe drop in confidence for the young man.

play him when he is physically ready.

[saintsRrising]

You would think that the more mobile Allen and Ferg would both be considered first considering that King and Gardi will play ruck....and the cumbersome Kosi will be playing up forward.

Do we really wanta forward line with tow "ruckmen" as the the two key forward options? One is ok....2 is one two many.

Allen has shown good form this year even if in the wind and wet he was a bit quiet last week.


Ferg you would think would get one more recall to the seniors....make or break.

[CURLY]

I was thinking he could play a Westhoff type role in a pocket. Maybe a good game with 4-5 grabs and a couple of goals. I just beleive that hes been groomed as a ruckmen and in the VFL he gets to play a majority of time there.

[yipper]

Reckon his body needs more work yet before they put him into the cut & thrust of AFL.

[spert]

Blood new players as soon as possible. Lets try him in the forward line -anyone is worth a try at the moment.

[saintsRrising]

I was thinking he could play a Westhoff type role in a pocket. .

I don't think Ben is anywhere near as nimble as Westhoff is....

Westhoff is also a pretty quick lead.

[Otiman]

If Kosi plays back (imo a worthwhile move), then McEvoy up front could give us the spark we need. Needs to learn to be accountable to his defender.

[big_mac_evoy5]

guys he isn't just a ruck. he got drafted as a ruck forward they. at the bushrangers there were two ruckman and big mc when the other dude was doing well forgot his name was killing is at full forward i think he isn't a forward he is more of a ruck but he can play there like luenberger.

i also think that we doulbe dring in allen and furgerson

if i picked the team this week it would be:

in: mc evoy,allen,ferguson
out: gehrig,r.clarke,c.gardiner

those three haven't been doing there bit and gehrig is injured.
allen kicked 3 in his first nab game ferguson doesn't get enough chances i would rather him the raph clarke and mcevoy as a third tall develop him he will be a gun

[saintsRrising]

guys he isn't just a ruck. he got drafted as a ruck forward they. at the bushrangers there were two ruckman and big mc when the other dude was doing well forgot his name was killing is at full forward i think he isn't a forward he is more of a ruck but he can play there like luenberger.

Yes we know that..

But in the Saints forward line there is another "ruck-forward" dude called Kosi......and two such ruck-forward-dudes in the one forward line is one slowish dude too many.

I like Ben...and think he will become a great player for us...but you would think that this week that the more mobile Allen and Ferg would be more likely options if they want another marking forward option.

[bigcarl]

I like Ben...and think he will becomea great player for us...but you wuld think that this week that the more mobile Allen and Ferg would be more likely options if they want another marking forward option.

agree.

it will only take injury, loss of form (or continued lack of it) from kosi, m. gardiner or king for bigmac to get his chance though.

[saintsRrising]

I like Ben...and think he will becomea great player for us...but you wuld think that this week that the more mobile Allen and Ferg would be more likely options if they want another marking forward option.

agree.

it will only take injury, loss of form (or continued lack of it) from kosi, m. gardiner or king for bigmac to get his chance though.

Or perhaps King or Gardiner being rested at some stage.....which is probably quite likely.

Next time we play Carlton for example.

[hotdish]

If he is in form play the kid.

He is not a porcelain Doll - he will not just break in half.

Remember he does play in the VFL where some big blokes do play.

He is 2 meters tall and weighs over 95kg, these arguments that we need to give him more time are bullcrap.

Sure, monitor him and give him alot of time rotating through the bench, but there is no reason to wrap him in cotton wool unless he is suffering from chronic soreness of OP

[Goose is king]

I agree with Hotdish. Play him if his form it good enough. He might not be as physicaly strong as opponents but he is not a twig. He would have to benefit for playing seniors. He can learn first hand off some of the best instead of learning of Rix.

[Bernard Shakey]

From what I saw at training McEvoy is not being considered for this week.

He did ruck drills with Rix while King and Gardiner worked together.

As McEvoy was not involved with the forward setup drills, I would say no chance.

[bigcarl]

I agree with Hotdish. Play him if his form it good enough. He might not be as physicaly strong as opponents but he is not a twig. He would have to benefit for playing seniors. He can learn first hand off some of the best instead of learning of Rix.

i think what srr is saying is that playing mcevoy along with king, gardiner and kosi would give us four ruckmen out there.

[congorozides]

Would the selection of Ben in the seniors go against his development as a ruckmen the role we recruited him for? Playing as a third tall Im confident enough to say he could handle admirally but his ruck time would be limited. Reading reports of his underage football it seems he was played up forward as he could win games from there and didnt ruck as often as his development required. Is this a reason that could hold him back from senior duties the fact we need him to develope his ruckwork?

no doubt he should play 4-6 senior games this year. they have to bring young guys in gradually over a few years and there is no better time to start than the present! if you are good enough to get drafted you are good enough to play some games. Most of the other top draft picks have had a sniff of the senior stuff already this year. Its good for the kids. Keeps them motivated and teaches what they are up against in the big league.

[saintsRrising]

For a bit of context....

Matthew Leuenberger was taken in the superdraft at pick 4.

Some said at the time he was good enough to be No 1 if you took a long term view of ruckmen taking longer to ripen

He is more talented than Ben...and played his first game at Round 14.
Beau McDonald went out in Round 9...and did not come back (injured???).

Now after Round 13 the Lions had only won 4 games...their season clearly over in terms of finals...so they quite rightly concentrated more of preparing for 2008...so Matthew came in.

After Matthew the next ruckman taken I think was Shaun Hampson at pick 17. He was only brought in for rounds 21 and 22 despite the fact that the Blues ruck stocks were dreadful.



Back to Ben

The Saints are still very much in the race for the finals. In the ruck we presently have both King and Gardi avaialble. They are both quite rightly preferred options.

Up forward there is Kosi and maybe Roo.

If you want to give a young tall forward a go...the logical one is Allen who has been in good form and who has an extra years development into him (even if he missed a chunk of last year due to injury).



I very much hope that Ben geta rucking slot next time one opens up...or we rest on of King or Gardiner. From now on I would prefer Ben to Rix.

If Kosi goes down then I would also consider him up forward though I would want to try Allen first.


Now...going back in time....would I have already give Ben a game or two this year given our injuries..and GTrain being out of sorts ? Yes I would.

But for this weekend I would go for Allen rather than Ben.

[rodgerfox]

I think it's an ideal time to play him.

Brisbane don't have a great 'tall' defense so he wouldn't get a good defender.

But, if he goes anywhere near the ruck Jamie Charman would beat the shiit out of him.

Not an ideal ruckman to debut against for a kid I wouldn't think.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I think it's an ideal time to play him.

Brisbane don't have a great 'tall' defense so he wouldn't get a good defender.

But, if he goes anywhere near the ruck Jamie Charman would beat the shiit out of him.

Not an ideal ruckman to debut against for a kid I wouldn't think.

While contemplating this with some friends, it was pointed out to me that for all the talk of 3 tall forwards being too much:
#1 Buddy's Box was built around a 4 marking forward setup, and
#2 It was against (an admittedly much weaker) Brisbane in rd. 22 2006 that the Saints played 4 tall forwards to the great effect of making it look like Barry Brooks career might now have been over (conversation came up when a dogs fan couldn't remember who the 4th tall had been in that forward line).

Merrett is a good spoiler, and Patful is improving a lot, but their backline can be exposed... one could argue that this is what Hawthorn did, as they allowed Brisbane some freedom to rebound (Brisbane did a very good job of isolating Bradshaw at true CHF) with an offensive forward line and backed themselves to kick a bigger score.

I'd worry that St Kilda would struggle to win that balance... but I also worry that we'll struggle to stop their rebound regardless (McGrath looked very good coming out of the backline last week, and Drummond is a Goddard quality kick)... but such an approach wouldn't be very Ross Lyon.

I don't know that it's a bad time to play him, but I suspect we'll struggle in the middle, and as a result not get the kind of quantity of opportunity he'd need to have a fair opportunity to have an impact... so he might be better off rucking in the V than getting a great view of the game... but that's a very negative reason NOT to select someone...

[rodgerfox]

I think it's an ideal time to play him.

Brisbane don't have a great 'tall' defense so he wouldn't get a good defender.

But, if he goes anywhere near the ruck Jamie Charman would beat the shiit out of him.

Not an ideal ruckman to debut against for a kid I wouldn't think.

While contemplating this with some friends, it was pointed out to me that for all the talk of 3 tall forwards being too much:

1 of the tall forwards we used isn't a forward at all.

Another has OP and busted hands.


So I don't really think the '3 talls' as such the issue - it's more who those talls are.

3 Jonathon Brown's would go alright I reckon.

[congorozides]

just a small qualification to my comments. if both gardi and king are available we have to play them. we recruited them to play games in the here and now.

i was just suggesting that as opportunities come up if one of them gets a short term injury then Ben should come in for the odd game here and there and play 50 minutes or so.

I think Rixy should be back-up in case we have a serious long-term injury to withe Gardi or King.

But no doubt that if gardi and king are avaliable they should be playing tihs year.

[saintsRrising]

While contemplating this with some friends, it was pointed out to me that for all the talk of 3 tall forwards being too much: ...

I can't speak for others, but my "talk" was of 3 tall forwards being too much when 2 of the three were slow and cumbersome (ie Kosi and GTrain).


If I had Buddy...would I say play Buddy, Roo and Kosi up forward = yes.

#1 Buddy's Box was built around a 4 marking forward setup, ...

True...but Williams is only 180cm.

The Hawks tall forwards were all mobile to extremely mobile with good ground skills.

It was not built around two slows in a GTrain well past his best whose ability to gathera lose ball this season has been dismal...and the 2008 version of Kosi.

Indeed it was built around the freakish gifted athletic Buddy... with some other reasonably mobile and young talls as well. I mention the young...as younger talls tend to not be as filled out and tend to be more mobilke. For eaxmple the young Kosi was mobile enough to play CHB...the 2008 kosi is not.

#2 It was against (an admittedly much weaker) Brisbane in rd. 22 2006 that the Saints

Now if you also remember that game you will remember that the rebound of the Lions out of defence from our cumbersome forward line was ferocious......but that the Lions then wasted that rebound with continued dreadful turnovers.

The 2008 Lions will rebound just as much...but will not turn it over like the 2006 Lions.

played 4 tall forwards to the great effect of making it look like Barry Brooks career might now have been over (conversation came up when a dogs fan couldn't remember who the 4th tall had been in that forward line)....

We played Roo, GTrain, Brooks, Sugar and Kosi...the last 3 all also played ruck though. Even Roo had 4 Hit outs!!!