Is it time for a risk?

[BigMart]

At seasons end we will have failed miserably......

St.K has been synonymous with excitement, passion and flair......we can be atrocious, but still make headlines.....still be entertaining (late 70's early 80's and 2001-03) , and when we are good (60's, 91/2, 97, 2004/5), we are exhilatating. That's what our fans love.

Right now we have a bunch of mediocre players, some stars who are playing in a fashion that they appear dour and negative, and a style of footy that makes neutral fans refuse to watch us. This is not what our culture is.....we love to party (fans)....we love to excite (players)...lets get back to scoring 20+ a game, let individuals shine rather than curbing their instincts.

And lets harden the F*** up and get tough again...

Some decisions need to be made......start with revitalising the match committee..

A footy manager who sells the club, and is a football man....with industry experience and a succesful background.

Sheedy/N.Daniher/Pagan/Thomas etc..

A contemporary Coach.....Footy intelligent, HIGH profile, highly respected.
ie....Buckley/Hird/Bell etc....
the lure of a senior coaching postion would be tantalising for them. They are untried, and a risk....but this is what I'm on about.

A backline coach who was attacking and a smart operator...
ie...Clement/Leppitch/Wellman/A.Jones etc...

A Mid Coach who has a good reputation......I think Rock has one, but there are many....this is where games are won and lost.

A Fwd Coach who controlled a fwd line
Hamill/Grant/Nietz/Gehrig

A great Ruckman as Ruck Coach
Dempsey, Madden, Newman, Rehn, Wynd, Primus

all coaches have been great leaders and commanded respect, most have been great captains.

Playing List....

Keep Core of players (18)
Gram, McEvoy, Hayes, Max, Montagna, Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Gilbert, Armitage, Kosi, S.Fisher, Dal Santo, Maguire, Allen, Steven, Geary.
All required

Look closely at
King, X.Clarke, Baker, Schneider, Gardner, Raph, Milne.
As to their worth at the club, or as a trade value.

Trim average players
L.Fisher, Fiora, Ferguson, Birss, Dempster, Blake, C.Gardner, Rix, Howard, McQualter, Gwilt, C.Jones, Van Reenan, Eddy, Chivers, Attard, Miles, Conners.
Retain depth players who, are able to compete at AFL standard where need, and that add depth where it is most required.

[Otiman]

Do we need a new wooden spoon or three in our collection?

[Saints Premiers 2008]

allen and stevens have not even played a game between them yet they are in the keep part??

they have done nothing...

man this forum goes into orgasm mode over certain players with no basis or facts...

there is nothing to suggest they will be good at all...they might 'show a bit' in the vfl but then again so did mark mgough...

[BigMart]

or perhaps they are kept because of the fact they are 1st or 2nd year players who are developing......and the rest have had a shot and either passed or failed......they have done niether...McEvoy is in the same boat.

Not sure about an orgasm, just a bit of common sense with regards to list management....

[saintsRrising]

A great Ruckman as Ruck Coach
Dempsey, Madden, Newman, Rehn, Wynd, Primus

.

Well you at least have one of your wishes...

Simon Madden has been our ruck coach since this year.

[BigMart]

These are not my wishes.......they are just ideas...

My wish is for

Ross Lyon to start coaching the side to it's strngths

use the

Engine and athletisism of Riewoldt

The Delivery of Dal Santo and Harvey

The creativity of Goddard

The mobility and strength of Kosi

The The ball carrying ability of Gram, S.Fisher, Montagna, X.Clarke, Geary.

The clearance work of Hayes, Ball, Armitage.

The raw talent of Raphael Clarke...

The crumbing ability of Milne and Schneider...

The overhead marking ability of Either Ferg/C.Gardner.

Fitting the G-Train in the front half somewhere.

and after all that finding defensive match-ups....by using either
Dempster, Baker, L.Fisher....

[Shaggy]

There is the major problem IMO.

RL is not coaching to get the best out of our players.

He is coaching how he thinks a premiership can be won with the right mix.

[Teflon]

I cant understand your logic at all Marto - lets get back to playing exciting footy cause we've been the "party" club?

IMHO We've failed because we've been "the party" club. We allowed players with individual "flair" to dominate our culture - whether that be Lockett's, Everitts, Halls et al we are the best club in the AFL for revering the "individual" - NO ONE does it better. In part cause we've not had the ultimate success but its also self perpetuating in that everytime we dont get success (often) we revert to the "individual" IMO and round we go...

You have to break that cycle to succeed - THATS what Westaway clumsily tried to say when he talked of maintaining a coach for 10 years or more (forget the contract talk that was drivel - focus on the sentiment). In that regard Westaway spoke with Frank Costa and asked him what had they done at Geelong and learnt along way to getting the ultimate success - Costa's response????? STABILITY/CONTINUITY - in short when Caroline Wilson and the pack were screaming for Bomber Thompsons head - Costa/Cook held their nerve, backed their man and got the results. IMO under Thomas/Butters we didnt have this option cause both shot each other (and the club) at twenty paces weekly via the media.....we have that option NOW and I hope we hold our nerve and take it.

We've had flair as a team and as individuals before and will again. IMO what the club and the team hasnt had across the board is DISCIPLINE. I'm not talking 20 lashes...Im saying weve not had a culture where as a group we adhere to a TEAM plan so to speak THAT ISNT CONTINGENT ON INDIVIDUAL SUPERSTARS. Even in our golden "04" 10 game streak... we had to have the blonde superstar in Riewoldt? and the myriad of individual brilliance be it Gehrig/Hamill or Harvey...IMHO and while we were no doubt consistent in 04 I still felt as a team we were led by individual brilliance and thats why we couldnt sustain it in my view - the tough, truly team disciplined sides have it across every line - Im talking Sydney now, Hawks 80's, Lions, Eagles 90's etc - yes theyve got/had stars but EVERY member of those team knew their role and played it. In these sides there really wasnt the "weak links" that we have ALWAYS had at St Kilda and that's the difference. These sides didnt carry a Fiora.......they wouldnt.

Collingwoods a good example at present (they have to sustain it yet...) but Malthouse demands players adhere to a strict game style, they have roles and if they dont adhere to them he drags them and occasionally spits it at them in the media (see Dale Thomas) - but have a look what avg players he's able to get the best out of by approaching it from the TEAM DISCIPLINE approach?

Sydney is the current classic example - yes they have super players but theyve been "up" for so many years built on team discipline and thats what Lyon wants from St Kilda. Have a look at how Sydney have performed without arguably their best player in Hall?????(some say theyve been better!!) - why? cause the DISCIPLINE around this side is such that the next player in the TEAM is EXPECTED to stand up.

Lyon has his work cut out to change this cause we as a club dont have the patience (understandably...we'd like a flag yesterday) but it aint gonna happen its gonna take time and the sooner many resolve to that and focus on what we can do to FINALLY put TEAM ahead of individual at the "party" club the better.

Sadly thats also gonna mean allowing Lyon the time to bring in players he can mould to the TEAM way of thinking. Its also why so many said Michael Voss's earlier season article about St Kilda was on the money.

Right now St Kilda doesnt need "party" or "flair" or "excitrement"- it needs to learn the meaning of TEAM and fast.

[BigMart]

Party Culture, I want to have a party everytime I go to the Dome.....The players....I want to take risks!


If this is what Lyon is trying to instill......it aint working......cause it aint no fun playing by his rules....they suck...so it seems

BTW - I disagree...

All great sides allow their stars to shine...

Kangaroos were about W.Carey....

Brisbane had the the flair of Aker....and two defenders who half the time didn't realise they had opponents (leppitch and Johnson) and of Course Pikey...

Geelong gets the ball in the hands of G.Ablett as much as possible....and plays by NO rules.....they overpossess...play on....and take risks and take the game on.

Hawthorn....in the 80's had a list Man U would be jealous of....and currently clear room for Buddy Love.....notice how they have changed there GP with the growth of their team in the last 18 months..

Port has had teams full of indigenous talent and flair...

Sydney is the only DOUR team to achieve the ultimite prize....but this was done with the most offensive player going around....A.Goodes....but also I believe they had a group of workman like players who thrived on this..Kirk, Bolton*2 etc..

WCE - with a midfield Group of Cox, Kerr, Judd, Cousins, Embley....how could they not win a flag.....in the 90's they

and Collingwood - have achieved ZERO...

This year the winners will be

The Bulldogs

Players with flair and excitement (aka matchwinners)
Cooney, Griffin, Aker, Johnson, Murphy, Gilbee, Ray, Gia

[n1ck]

Defensive coach: Hardwick
Midfield coach: Buckley or Voss
Forward coach: Gehrig

Wouldnt have Bucks or Voss as senior coach just yet... Tim Watson, anyone?

Neale Daniher or Kevin Sheedy would work well with these guys as their assistants, and as much as I hate to say it, I wouldnt mind either of them as Chief at this point in time.

[Teflon]

Party Culture, I want to have a party everytime I go to the Dome.....The players....I want to take risks!


If this is what Lyon is trying to instill......it aint working......cause it aint no fun playing by his rules....they suck...so it seems

BTW - I disagree...

All great sides allow their stars to shine...

I'll stop you there.

Do show me in my post above where I said those sides with TEAM DISCIPLINE stop their stars from shining?

And your honestly telling us that Ross Lyon is purposefully stopping his "stars" from shining?

Righto....

You also forgot to mention that most of those great sides also had their fair share of non-superstars, players who did the team thing and stuck to doing it. Teams that could MAINTAIN their structures, roles under pressure and play the game on their terms.

Ive seen Sydney win that many times without Goodes having any impact and now without Hall at all???? and your telling me its all about "stars" shining?......it is at St Kilda. Thats my point and I suspect Michale Voss's also....but what would he know... ...I mean it was Brett that said theres at least half the side who dont play for team?

BTW Hawks/Dogs havent done a thing yet also.

To me it seems your more about "having fun" at the Dome. Thats cool there's a Cristian meeting each year full of singing and dancing and touching etc...get along...knock yourself out.

I go there to win and if that means ugly I'll take it (that line got me into trouble in nightclubs a bit in the 80's.... )

[BigMart]

Well then Teflon, why are we not firing, seeing as the coach has got the right idea..

[Teflon]

Well then Teflon, why are we not firing, seeing as the coach has got the right idea..

2 reasons IMMO.

1. Skill/Ability across the board isnt there - yeah we have some great players......we're carrying far to many who'd struggle at other clubs also IMO. This category also includes a lack of run - saw that first hand last week. We look slow and whats worse.......its compounded by having 2 great by foot in the whole side.....thats an indictment on recruiting over the past 3-4 yrs....

2. Its only my view but I dont believe weve learnt to play as a team yet and under a rookie coach (lets face it hes learning too) its gonna take time. FWIW I truly believe Lyon wants us to instinctively know when to attack and when to apply the brakes. Unfortunately that balance hasnt come easy yet but on the glimpses where we have got it right IMHO we've shown great pressure AND an ability to score quickly (under the Thomas model we looked great in all out attack.........we went to water when sides dropped men back and decided they didnt want to play shoot out with us).

The coach has a lot to do. I ageee with an earlier point of yours...he needs to look at some the assistants.......and Barker is an obvious one. I also hope Ross isnt so entrenched in tactics and is focussing on allowing his passion to come through to the playing group - that can be infectuous.

[BigMart]

So Barker is the scapegoat.....who's GP is he teaching the fwds...

in reality
Footballers are instinctive.....make them second guess, they lose their confidence...

If you want to play a defensive, shut down game (evidence is there, no matte the spin) he needs players of that ilk....Just like Essendon and Richmond are currently paying for trying to replicate Geelong, when they do not have the cattle...We are trying to play a similar way to Syd/Adel and do not have the footskill or discipline to slow the game down...

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Keep Core of players (18)
Gram, McEvoy, Hayes, Max, Montagna, Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Gilbert, Armitage, Kosi, S.Fisher, Dal Santo, Maguire, Allen, Steven, Geary.
All required

Trim average players
L.Fisher, Fiora, Ferguson, Birss, Dempster, Blake, C.Gardner, Rix, Howard, McQualter, Gwilt, C.Jones, Van Reenan, Eddy, Chivers, Attard, Miles, Conners.
Retain depth players who, are able to compete at AFL standard where need, and that add depth where it is most required.

how can you have such a glowing endorsment on Allen and Steven yet "trim" players like Eddy Chivers Miles and Conners ?? how do you know who is going to perform in the AFL when they all havent even had a crack at the big time ??

[congorozides]

its not a glowing endoresment but we cant get rid of 18 year old kids

i think u get a 3 year buffer when u are young. unfortunately raph, fizz,ferg, b brooks and a few others got more than that.

i like st marts post.

i just dont think RL has any risk/imagination/innovation in his bones. he has it in his head that the swans premierhip of 05 is the ONLY way to win won. in truth every premiership is different. every year, every team different.

id love sheeds to be at the club. and somelike fresh succesful modern and smart like hardwick, bucks, peter bell like u mentioned.

[BigMart]

Because they are very ordinary......

Conners, Chivers, Van Reenan, Haretuka are Casey reserves players without a hope of getting a senior game unless there is real shortage....and they do not even get in the best there......

Miles and C.Jones are quite good state league players IMO.....both do not have the skill level required at AFL level......but have terrific assets at State league level.....which is why they are drafted late.....they have shone in the WAFL..

Eddy is a different story......he is a McQualter, Ferguson, L.Fisher, Blake, T.Schwarze, B.Schwarze, Dempster, Attard type GOP.....no outstanding qualities, but a solid state league player, who can play a role at AFL level. but how many of those can you have.

Howard is similar to a young Miles and Jones......has an upside (pace), but skill flaws.....will be a good player in the QAFL.

McEvoy, Steven, Geary, Allen, Armitage, Gilbert....have all walked into the VFL as senior players at 17-19yo and performed straight away against older bodies, and have looked right at home in AFL practise matches......

Steven, Geary and Armo should be getting groomed to supprt Ball, Dal, Montagna, Hayes....whilst.....Gilbert (194) and Allen (192) will replace Gehrig and Hudghton.....McEvoy will replace King...that 6 will be automatic selections in 2010.

[Teflon]

So Barker is the scapegoat.....who's GP is he teaching the fwds...

in reality
Footballers are instinctive.....make them second guess, they lose their confidence...

If you want to play a defensive, shut down game (evidence is there, no matte the spin) he needs players of that ilk....Just like Essendon and Richmond are currently paying for trying to replicate Geelong, when they do not have the cattle...We are trying to play a similar way to Syd/Adel and do not have the footskill or discipline to slow the game down...

I agree with some of that - although Im not convinced hes trying just replicate "shut down blan footy" I think thats a myth cause as I said at times Ive seen us play fast, free scoring footy - I think he wants both and the players are struggling to adjust.

Agree about the cattle - to me its clear we dont have the right mix yet.

No ones a "scapegoat" - Eade got rid of 3 assistants last year.....were they scape goats?

Sometimes you need to turn em over and I dont believe the fwd line has functioned this year - Barker'r sole role. He IMHO should move on. Thats not just looking for blame - its looking for synergy in and out of the box.

[saintsRrising]

Anyone that thinks that theCcats did not play disciplined football last year needs to perhaps really consider what each cats player does.

While there are various ways to play......none will be successful unless a team plays disciplined fooball for the vast majority of the game...and each and every team member performs his role.


Whil some focus on the Cats as being attacking free flowing....they are ignoring that this only works due to great discipline.

All the Cats players run and support...they can play on quickly because they work hard, and run hard...and each does the role set by the coach.

Cats players do not rely on individual brilliance...though they do have some brilliant players.

Most of all they rely on each team member doing what they are meant to...again, again and again...

They can dish off that quick handball because they know that a team-mate..or a chain of team-mates will be there.

That they can actually hit targets with hanball and foot just makes it work all the better. But discipline to the gameplan is what actually makes it all work.

[congorozides]

Defensive coach: Hardwick
Midfield coach: Buckley or Voss
Forward coach: Gehrig

Wouldnt have Bucks or Voss as senior coach just yet... Tim Watson, anyone?

Neale Daniher or Kevin Sheedy would work well with these guys as their assistants, and as much as I hate to say it, I wouldnt mind either of them as Chief at this point in time.

agree. i still feel bucks and voss have much harder heads and more tactical nouse than timmy.
but i agree with everything else u said here.

[congorozides]

There is the major problem IMO.

RL is not coaching to get the best out of our players.

He is coaching how he thinks a premiership can be won with the right mix.

agree

[desertsaint]

Many members here suggest the problem lies with our current list and argue we need to develop our youngsters and even trade away players for draft picks so lyon can develop them as a team able to play to his style.
Fine but there is one question i have - wasn't Lyon chosen to tweak a team? There was nothing in his resume (or job description) that suggests he would have been chosen to develop a team from scratch - does he have the ability or experience?

[bergsone]

Many members here suggest the problem lies with our current list and argue we need to develop our youngsters and even trade away players for draft picks so lyon can develop them as a team able to play to his style.
Fine but there is one question i have - wasn't Lyon chosen to tweak a team? There was nothing in his resume (or job description) that suggests he would have been chosen to develop a team from scratch - does he have the ability or experience?

IMO NO