Our 'List'

[rodgerfox]

Does anyone think our list looks better now than it did a month ago?

[The Saintsational Man]

Yeah well that was expected should we win a few games.

Get past Carlton then upset the Hawks.

Then we'll be rated nationally again.

[Red]

No, I still don't think we have the same cattle as Geelong and the Dogs.

[rodgerfox]

No, I still don't think we have the same cattle as Geelong and the Dogs.

What did you think of Geelong's cattle in 06?

And of the Bulldogs' cattle last year?

[Con Gorozidis]

No, I still don't think we have the same cattle as Geelong and the Dogs.

What did you think of Geelong's cattle in 06?

And of the Bulldogs' cattle last year?

agree rodger but dogs and cats (it sounds like a veterinary clinic) only had one down year each.

saints are looking at 2 down years.

i think you will also find (and i hate to sound like a broken record) but whether they were up or down they still blooded some new talent. W are just doing it now - albeit in a panic/rush.

Remember Everitt and Higgins for the Dogs last year? Both quality kids.

[rodgerfox]

No, I still don't think we have the same cattle as Geelong and the Dogs.

What did you think of Geelong's cattle in 06?

And of the Bulldogs' cattle last year?

agree rodger but dogs and cats (it sounds like a veterinary clinic) only had one down year each.

saints are looking at 2 down years.

Yes, but neither of them were adapting to a new coach.

i think you will also find (and i hate to sound like a broken record) but whether they were up or down they still blooded some new talent. W are just doing it now - albeit in a panic/rush.

Remember Everitt and Higgins for the Dogs last year? Both quality kids.

True - both were blooded last year and showed some ability. However they have only played 4 and 2 games this year respectively when the Dogs are doing very well.

They've been squeezed out for rejects and 'top-ups'.

[yipper]

So, are you of the view our list is in better shape now than it was a month ago?? Where are you going with this?

[Sobraz]

No, I still don't think we have the same cattle as Geelong and the Dogs.

What did you think of Geelong's cattle in 06?

And of the Bulldogs' cattle last year?

agree rodger but dogs and cats (it sounds like a veterinary clinic) only had one down year each.

saints are looking at 2 down years.

Yes, but neither of them were adapting to a new coach.

i think you will also find (and i hate to sound like a broken record) but whether they were up or down they still blooded some new talent. W are just doing it now - albeit in a panic/rush.

Remember Everitt and Higgins for the Dogs last year? Both quality kids.

True - both were blooded last year and showed some ability. However they have only played 4 and 2 games this year respectively when the Dogs are doing very well.

They've been squeezed out for rejects and 'top-ups'.

Higgens has been out injured all year.. He is a walk up start at the doggies, and will be included ahead of West if one possie is availble come finals time..

Im not sold on the dogs, their 'rejects' (Hudson, Welsh, Aker) have all performed way above themselves... Good on them, but it wont last..

As for the orginal question, I still, as always rate our list highly... Its about getting the right balance and confidence.. These two are so so important, and i think we are getting there...

Look at the Hawks, duds like Osborne, Clarke, Ladson are backing themselves... Similarly at geelong, 2 years ago James Kelly was playing 2's with a trade for anything side on his head... This year he's an 'all-star'.. Confidence is the key...

We have the cattle to be there abouts, but they need the belief... slounds fairy floss, i know, but i think its the difference at the moment..

[Teflon]

Does anyone think our list looks better now than it did a month ago?

Weve beaten lowly Freo and Nth who are struggling away from Melb and that vindicates the list now?

And you reckon the "ross lovers" shoot the bolt early.....FFS.....stop being silly.

[yipper]

I think fitness is crucial - our better players are coming into good form (so it seems over the last 2 weeks) and this will have a huge bearing on how well we are playing. Riewoldt has shed those bandages and appears to be fully fit - result he gets 2 BOGS in successive weeks, we also happen to win both games!!

Gram appears free in his movements now and is kicking longer and more accurately as a result. Kosi has come back seemingly refreshed - starts taking marks and contesting hard, also running into dangerous spots. Goddard is fit and now firing, ditto Joey. Our list looks pretty good right now because everyone is up and about. They have had their integrity as footballers questioned - and have responded accordingly. It's fitness and what's between the ears that determines how we go now.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

It's going to sound strange, but I'm more concerned about our list after a couple of wins where we appear to be turning it around then I was a couple of weeks ago playing badly, taking the wins against bad teams and relying on single quarter efforst to keep us int he game vs better teams.

While there's always value to a youth infusion to add some zest for the game, and it's certainly appeared to be a contributor in getting our team onto the same page, it leaves one wondering whether going to our "best 22" is really an option.

i.e. on talent alone, X > Jones, Raph > Gwilt (lots will disagree, but point is Gwilt is solidifying his spot in the position we wanted Raph to really take hold of), Baker > a truckload of guys in the team right now (let's say Mini for the sake of it), Hayes > well... who've you got? (we'll say Eddy for the sake of it), Maguire > Blake, and we'll probably be slotting in a move like M Gardiner > Allen too.

The only one that's not set to come back soon is Maguire... but I wonder, if we had all those players fit, would making that degree of change be counterproductive? With the exception of Baker (who one can rely on to put in) and Hayes, we're looking at a group of players who have been part of the Saints while they appeared to not be playing for the coach, and not been in as the Saints appeared to start doing so.

If we take a longer term view than the must-win Carlton game, I think the next test for Lyon is getting his best 22 to play with the team buy-in of the Freo game and passion of the North game. On the upside, the Saints would appear to be in a position to demand that those players earn their way back via Casey, and the malaise is no longer club-wide... but if they can't, some hard calls are going to need to be made on some good talents, and who knows where that leaves us - nothing against Eddy, Allen and Geary, they may have exceptional AFL careers ahead of them, but there's no guarentee with any of them. Mini's still on pretty thin ice IMO, and while Jones has shown Fiora the door and improved more than I would have expected, I wonder how much improvement is left in him.

All of this is just me musing on the list and state of play - I'm actually pretty upbeat about where we're at (well, in comparison to 2 weeks ago, not in comparision to this time in 2004 ). For the first time under Lyon alst weekend the team's performance was greater than the sum of it's parts. I wonder where that leaves some of the individuals that weren't part of that but are parts of why we looked so good on paper to so many a few months back.

[rodgerfox]

So, are you of the view our list is in better shape now than it was a month ago?? Where are you going with this?

Not really going anywhere Yipper.

I am interesting though if many think our list still has gaping holes - like alot pinned our form on.

Or if now, some people think that our list is actually very talented - considering that individual talent and acts of brilliance have got us over the line the past 2 weeks.


I think our list is, and always has been a top 4 list in terms of talent. It's just that now, our good players seem to be playing good footy.

It was a very hot topic when we were getting rolled, so I think it's worth discussion now that we have won a couple.

[yipper]

So, are you of the view our list is in better shape now than it was a month ago?? Where are you going with this?

Not really going anywhere Yipper.

I am interesting though if many think our list still has gaping holes - like alot pinned our form on.

Or if now, some people think that our list is actually very talented - considering that individual talent and acts of brilliance have got us over the line the past 2 weeks.


I think our list is, and always has been a top 4 list in terms of talent. It's just that now, our good players seem to be playing good footy.

It was a very hot topic when we were getting rolled, so I think it's worth discussion now that we have won a couple.

Fair enough!!

[rodgerfox]

What is also interesting I think, is that players carrying us over the line are not new to the club.

Roo, Kosi, Bally, Kosi, Max, Dal, Joey, Milne, Gram and Sam Fisher had very good games.

These guys need to play well for us to win.


I don't really think the output or roles played by our new recruits were, or have been any better than the 'depth/fringe' players they replaced.

[rodgerfox]

In addition to that....

With Lenny, Harves, Armitage, Baker, X, Goose, BJ aswell - that is a pretty impressive 17.

Only Armitage is new to the club.


To have 16 really talented and very good footballers on your list who have played at least 50 games together is a very good situation to be in.

That is a seriously talented and capable core.

Trim off Harves and Max due to the fact thay won't be there for another 2-3 years, and we still have a core 14 really good footballers.

Every one of them, has been tagged during their career. Perhaps bar X and Bakes - but he's won a B&F.


I think our list is good. Very good.

[Otiman]

We have a few gaping holes covered in crepe paper. A few drops of rain and we'll be leaking like a sieve.

No FF.
No CHB.
No Half Forward Flankers.
Injury Prone FB.

[Teflon]

What is also interesting I think, is that players carrying us over the line are not new to the club.

Roo, Kosi, Bally, Kosi, Max, Dal, Joey, Milne, Gram and Sam Fisher had very good games.

These guys need to play well for us to win.


I don't really think the output or roles played by our new recruits were, or have been any better than the 'depth/fringe' players they replaced.

Any side in the comp relies on its better players to win on most occasions - nothing startling in that revelation...

I dont agree on the output of those "fringe" players you refer to - I actually think C Jones is playing above himself, Gwilt also (I had him for trade/delist....am now thinking he actually "may' be able to compose himself and be a player...), King has been excellent in the ruck - last 2 games his standout and Gardiner (prior to injury) was also contributing well I thought. Dempsters another much maligned on here...yet continues to look solid down back....for what? nothing in the draft.....Birrs (cant crack the side cause Lyon is trying others) has also impressed me this year - he's kicked goals AND been able to play a shut down role.......handy.

I dont share your "negativity" at all when it comes to the current fringe BUT there is still much work on the list to be done before we're seen as a flag threat - we need a CHB, FB replacement for a start and still lack a true mid sized fwd/HFF who kicks goals since Hamill's demise. I also think we still need to bridge the midfield gap between our starting line up and our second tier....Armo is leading that charge but needs others.......and on top of that Id like to see an injection of players who can run/carry (main reason C Jones is getting a game for mine).

List needs work no question.

[Red]

Rodger it's 2008 and Geelongs players have improved and ours have

treaded water. Not only that but if I remember rightly the FOX REPORT

lambasted our bottom 6 or 7 players. Are they not included in our list?

Also I think that Baker winning a B&F says a lot about our list, as much as

I love what he does for the team he really shouldn't be in our best 2 players.

[saintsRrising]

No nothing changed...in terms of what is required....

If the question you are struggling to hint is that the "2006 list " is good enough to be Top 4. Then no it is/was not.

List had still dipped in quality and RL needed to add talent and depth (don't forget that Cats, Dogs and Hawks have alll improved in quality and quantity...and where their players are at):

Top 4 list??...only if the younguns and older recruits all come on quick...

Yes there was an existing core (some of whom like Roo and Gram were hampered by injuries..and other like BJ and Hayes, Ball were still recoveing) witha lot of quality..bu ta lot of flaws too.

The "existing core" had been undercahieving this season...and the coach needs to cop some of the heat on this.

Baker not playing has hurt us. With attard also out we have lacked aplayer who can shut down small forwards.

This core is not enough however.

To be Top 4 you need:

The mature recuits of King, M Gardiner and Schneider to all be playing good football. Schneider is yet to achieve this.

Demspter and Charlie were bonus picks for extra depth. Lately Demspter is a shaping as first 22 player. this is a bonus as it helps to free up Sam and Gram. Birss was surprisngly dropped when he appeared to have been in good form. This may have been for structural reasons though.

Non-core

Blake has impressed me of late. With Goose out he has improved asa backman which I think suits him better. His spoiling skills are now probably No 2 at the club behind only Max. No star, but has beena handy replacement for Goose and this allos Sam Fisher to be used in damaging roles including spells in the midfield.

Fiora has sadly sunk. This has not been good as we lack pace and run.

X..and Raph have personal problems at present....I won't say more. But X in the team would be handy.

Gwilt is an unknown...still short of the quality required..and with Raph out of form we may well need him to step up.


Rookies

With a shallow list we needed some to come on. So far Geary, Eddy and Jones have all shown promise with CJ in particular showing ok form. The rokie Mini has also looked ok, without dominating. asa group they have added extra depth though which has been helpful.

Younguns

Many of our draft picks the last two drafts have been long term development players including bottom age picks.

McEvoy and steven look the goods..but were always picks for a few years time and not now.

Armitage is now coming on nicely.


Workrate

I posted at the start of last season that this would remain RL's biggest challenge..and this has been the case for most of his time with us. Dropping Dal and Milne would appear to have done wonders for getting the team to lift in this regard.



For us to go well in the finals this year (not to mention to actually make the finals in the first place) it will require players like King, Gardiner and Schneider to all be firing along withe "2006" players along with a younung and/or rookie or two....ALL playing with GOOD workrates and endeavour.

It will also need one or two players like Blake and Dempster to play good footy too.

[rodgerfox]

Our bottom 6 aren't playing good footy.

They are playing very ordinary footy I think.

My view is, and always has been, that this doesn't really matter that much.

Your best 6 players win flags. You're bottom 6 just come along for the ride and play cameos. Last week, Dempster was horrible. However some think he was been very good. I think he was just as bad as ever, but with our mids on top and run from Fisher and Gram, he looked better.

I disagree with the theory that your bottom 6 are the most important players.

Your bottom 6 looks good when your top 6 is playing well. It doesn't matter whether or not this bottom 6 are veterans in their twilight, rejects from other clubs or kids in their first year.

As long as your core is very good, it just doesn't matter. Your core is your top 6 and your middle 6 (my definition).

We have a very good top 6. In the top 4 of the comp. We also have a very middle 6 - in the top echelon of the comp.

Geelong have a very good top 6, and a very good middle 6 also. Ditto the Bulldogs.

Hawthorn have a very, very good top 6 - but I think an average middle 6.

For this reason, I believe Hawthorn are vunerable.

Brisbane have an awesome top 6. But an ordinary middle 6.


People look at drafting kids as crucial. It's a theory that can be made to fit various circumstances.
People say you shouldn't top up. Another theory that can be made to fit various circumstances.

Both theories also have exceptions.


The key to it all, is your core. You need a very good top 6. Your stars. You need a very good middle 6. These 12 guys need to play 50 games together to become very effective.
As older 'core' players become 'bottom 6' players, you need to be replacing them in the core.

Sometimes, you'll have a hiatus where your core shrinks from 12, to 9 or 10 players. This often will be when a team drops for a year or so when good players retire or leave. Sometimes happens during a 'dynasty' even. The top 6 can still be good enough to make the 8, but sometimes a year or two passes before the 'core' is settled again. If you manage it well, it only takes a year or so to recover - if you hold your nerve and keep the rest of the core together.
It can also happen if your top 6 gets injured.


The rest of the list doesn't matter.
Hell, look at some of the duds that have played in premiership teams. Also look at some premiership players that have gone from being a bottom 6 flag player (in a team with a very good core) to a dud at another club who's core can't carry them.


Currently, our core is very good. It's one thing that we as a club, have managed to do very well. Keep a core for an extended period of time.

What we need to do, and this is why recruiting is important, is to ensure that core is solid for years to come.
It doesn't matter whether or not they come as draft picks via the National Draft, or 'discards' from other clubs - as long as they can play 100 games and can become a top 12 player for you reasonably quickly, then you're adding to your core.

As long as you keep your core at 12 players and keep it in the upper echelon of the league, you'll be a contender.


If you're reasonably well coached, that is.

[rodgerfox]

To be Top 4 you need:

The mature recuits of King, M Gardiner and Schneider to all be playing good football. Schneider is yet to achieve this.

Demspter and Charlie were bonus picks for extra depth. Lately Demspter is a shaping as first 22 player. this is a bonus as it helps to free up Sam and Gram. Birss was surprisngly dropped when he appeared to have been in good form. This may have been for structural reasons though.

Do you mean finish top 4? Or to be a top 4 list?

Workrate

I posted at the start of last season that this would remain RL's biggest challenge..and this has been the case for most of his time with us. Dropping Dal and Milne would appear to have done wonders for getting the team to lift in this regard.

I think is the only absolute given in footy. To be any good, your workrate needs to be consistently very high.

Having that, won't guarantee you success, but not having it will guarantee you won't have success.

[Quixote]

We have a few gaping holes covered in crepe paper. A few drops of rain and we'll be leaking like a sieve.

No FF.
No CHB.
No Half Forward Flankers.
Injury Prone FB.

Good point.

Our biggest worry is no FF.
Max is a great FB - fingers crossed.
HFF'ers - hopefully Allen can step up, X when back, Ferg...
CHB - another worry. We need Sam elsewhere. Blake?

[barks4eva]

Does anyone think our list looks better now than it did a month ago?

Things started to improve onfield, when Ross Lyon adopted the b4e gameplan, let's be honest here!

Play the kids, give them opportunities, the ONLY WAY FORWARD and the quickest way at that, our list has some players capable of becoming elite and a few that already are Hayes, 36 yo Harvey, Riewoldt, but we did not recruited and draft well for a sustained five year period and in the cyclical nature of AFL football this will ultimately become your achillees heel unless you do something to dramatically address this.

I'm just wondering why it took Ross Lyon so long to play the kids to begin with!

Our list obviously has potential, given some of the quality stars we do have, BUT no team with aspirations to be a premiership team right now, can afford to carry passengers, there is no hiding from this and it is fair to say that such are our circumstances right now, IMHO our list is off the pace,

but it does not stop me from hoping for miracles, afterall we are having this discussion over the internet, accessed via computer modems, some 4.6 billion or so years after so called human civilisation first took root, with us (according to some Darwinian theory) having evolved from monkeys, subsequent to first having assumed some noble position in amongst the ancestry of lungfish or some other slimey, slithering and slippery sea slug in the pre-historic emulsion.

[rodgerfox]

Does anyone think our list looks better now than it did a month ago?

Things started to improve onfield, when Ross Lyon adopted the b4e gameplan, let's be honest here!

Play the kids, give them opportunities, the ONLY WAY FORWARD and the quickest way at that, our list has some players capable of becoming elite and a few that already are Hayes, 36 yo Harvey, Riewoldt, but we did not recruited and draft well for a sustained five year period and in the cyclical nature of AFL football this will ultimately become your achillees heel unless you do something to dramatically address this.

I'm just wondering why it took Ross Lyon so long to play the kids to begin with!

Our list obviously has potential, given some of the quality stars we do have, BUT no team with aspirations to be a premiership team right now, can afford to carry passengers, there is no hiding from this and it is fair to say that such are our circumstances right now, IMHO our list is off the pace,

but it does not stop me from hoping for miracles, afterall we are having this discussion over the internet, accessed via computer modems, some 4.6 billion or so years after so called human civilisation first took root, with us (according to some Darwinian theory) having evolved from monkeys, subsequent to first having assumed some noble position in amongst the ancestry of lungfish or some other slimey, slithering and slippery sea slug in the pre-historic emulsion.

'Playing the kids' does one of 3 things only....

1) Gets you another 'bottom 6' player.
2) With some luck, gets you a 'middle 6' player within the first year. Very rare.
3) Starts the ball rolling with a 'core player' that will give you benefit in 2-3 years time.


'Playing the kids' has had no relevance to us winning the past 2 games.

[saint patrick]

...... afterall we are having this discussion over the internet, accessed via computer modems, some 4.6 billion or so years after so called human civilisation first took root, with us (according to some Darwinian theory) having evolved from monkeys, subsequent to first having assumed some noble position in amongst the ancestry of lungfish or some other slimey, slithering and slippery sea slug in the pre-historic emulsion.

Quite an interesting existential observation Barks

A succinct and humerous short history of humanity ...particularly like the last line...slimey,slithering and slippery sea slug in the pre-histioric emulsion....

Do you mind if I use that?

Evokes a wide range of emotion and vivid imagery

Reminds of some of the partys I attended and survived during my UNI days