Eleven reasons why we won't win another game in 2008

[SainterX]

Max did better on Franklin then Scarlett did and he still gets no respect

[saintbob]

You forgot No.26, some of his first and second efforts were disgraceful last night to say the least.

[saintbob]

All very nice about Milne but his output is not good enough at this level. It is this mediocrity that we are beginning to accept in an environment of low level performance by the rest of the team.

SPOT ON!!!!

Has been this way for way to long

[Bernard Shakey]

Where was No 23, did he play?

[St. Luke]

We are unbelievably slow - even slower than Collingwood!

Wow, although I also thought we showed a lack of heart, are we talking about the same Collingwood who thumped the Cats??? perhaps my sunken heart isn't placing this fact in perspective either??? Collingwood play like we do...with major inconsistency! (goddamn I hate that word!! Grrrrr )

[St. Luke]

ps: I won't ( and refuse to) stomach crap about Milne! one of the only blokes who shows a bit of passion and tries to fire up what was a lifeless lump on Saturday night! The Wizzbanger still rates highly in my books!

[perfectionist]

...Very disrespectful to the best fullback weve had in a very long time, since Bob Murray Id dare to say

Barry Lawrence
Trevor Barker
Danny Frawley (just, couldn't mark either, but could kick better)
Luke Penny

The fact that he has remained at full back is not his fault - just like his inability to mark the ball in a contest isn't his fault, he just can't do it. He has one string to his bow, the punch away, which he does well, but punches can go anywhere and should not be first resort but last.

Look at the premiership teams of the last decade, no make that ever. They all have backlines with one, two or three contested marking players. Look at Geelong, four of their back six can and do take the contested mark. The only other team that comes close is Hawthorn.

In 1997, Vidovic actually performed this role until the last fifteen minutes of round 22, and it was his injury, not Everitt's (which didn't help) that cost us the flag.

90% of premierships are won by the team with the best backline. Simple. Constantly asserting that Max is a 'gun' fullback is ridiculous and simply flies in the face of results. He is the best we have - but that's our problem not our solution.

[HarveysDeciple]

...Very disrespectful to the best fullback weve had in a very long time, since Bob Murray Id dare to say

Barry Lawrence
Trevor Barker
Danny Frawley (just, couldn't mark either, but could kick better)
Luke Penny

The fact that he has remained at full back is not his fault - just like his inability to mark the ball in a contest isn't his fault, he just can't do it. He has one string to his bow, the punch away, which he does well, but punches can go anywhere and should not be first resort but last.

Look at the premiership teams of the last decade, no make that ever. They all have backlines with one, two or three contested marking players. Look at Geelong, four of their back six can and do take the contested mark. The only other team that comes close is Hawthorn.

In 1997, Vidovic actually performed this role until the last fifteen minutes of round 22, and it was his injury, not Everitt's (which didn't help) that cost us the flag.

90% of premierships are won by the team with the best backline. Simple. Constantly asserting that Max is a 'gun' fullback is ridiculous and simply flies in the face of results. He is the best we have - but that's our problem not our solution.

Max Hudghton was a couple of late season injuries away from being a dual all australian.

Has been beaten 4 times in 3 years.

[Winmar7Fan]

Seems like all these players are being defended by someone so I suppose everyone played a good game ?

[Ralphy]

dude he is bagging out maxxie, clearly he knows nothing

[WayneJudson42]

No 8
No 11
No 13
No 17
No 19
No 24
No 32
No 33
No 40
No 42
No 44

None of them can win a contest let alone actually do something with the ball if they get it although, in that respect, they are like almost everyone else in the team.

I saw not one Saints player accurately dispose of the ball with the non preferred foot. Last night, I saw fifteen Geelong players do it. How can that be?

We are unbelievably slow - even slower than Collingwood!

The fastest player in the team, physically and mentally is the oldest. Riewoldt with a broken hand took more contested marks than the rest combined. Our backman think contested marks are something other clubs do.

We will be smashed in the last three games.

Change the title to "11 Reasons why we won't win a flga" and you'll be closer to the mark.

[perfectionist]

Change the title to "11 Reasons why we won't win a flag" and you'll be closer to the mark.

It's both, unfortunately.

[perfectionist]

Max Hudghton was a couple of late season injuries away from being a dual all australian.

When, and who were the lucky mugs who beat him?

In fact, he played his best football in 2004 and 2005 when he could play the supporting role to Penny and, therefore, play on lesser players.

[WayneJudson42]

Max Hudghton was a couple of late season injuries away from being a dual all australian.

When, and who were the lucky mugs who beat him?

In fact, he played his best football in 2004 and 2005 when he could play the supporting role to Penny and, therefore, play on lesser players.

What's your views on Penny and Aussie btw?

[HarveysDeciple]

Max Hudghton was a couple of late season injuries away from being a dual all australian.

When, and who were the lucky mugs who beat him?

In fact, he played his best football in 2004 and 2005 when he could play the supporting role to Penny and, therefore, play on lesser players.

lesser players like Lynch, richo, nathan brown, Barry Hall etc?

[WayneJudson42]

...Very disrespectful to the best fullback weve had in a very long time, since Bob Murray Id dare to say

Barry Lawrence
Trevor Barker
Danny Frawley (just, couldn't mark either, but could kick better)
Luke Penny

The fact that he has remained at full back is not his fault - just like his inability to mark the ball in a contest isn't his fault, he just can't do it. He has one string to his bow, the punch away, which he does well, but punches can go anywhere and should not be first resort but last.

Look at the premiership teams of the last decade, no make that ever. They all have backlines with one, two or three contested marking players. Look at Geelong, four of their back six can and do take the contested mark. The only other team that comes close is Hawthorn.

In 1997, Vidovic actually performed this role until the last fifteen minutes of round 22, and it was his injury, not Everitt's (which didn't help) that cost us the flag.

90% of premierships are won by the team with the best backline. Simple. Constantly asserting that Max is a 'gun' fullback is ridiculous and simply flies in the face of results. He is the best we have - but that's our problem not our solution.

Makes sense. Max should not be our #1 full back. He's only there coz we never replaced Penny. Good player, but I reckon the opposition are happy for him to have the ball.

AAH the big Lazar! Such swett memories. That was the key in 97, combined with Everitt going forward.

BTW, you forgot to mention Cowboy Neale doing drop-kicks from kick outs He went on to win the TV during the night series at the LAkeside Oval IIRC

[perfectionist]

Peter Hudson told me not to include Cowboy!

"What's your views on Penny and Aussie btw?"

See my post on Leigh Fisher. But to add, Aussie kicked the goals that Leigh Montagna misses by one metre and Luke Penny took the mark and choose the option that Max never seems to see. They had class - they could kick either foot.

[St DAC]

Luke Penny took the mark and choose the option that Max never seems to see. They had class - they could kick either foot.

And your credibility as a footy guru evaporates ...

[WayneJudson42]

Luke Penny took the mark and choose the option that Max never seems to see. They had class - they could kick either foot.

And your credibility as a footy guru evaporates ...

I'll buy the Aussie part, but I reckon Penny lacked ticker.

[HarveysDeciple]

A question for those who say Max shouldn't get the best forward........which ones ever beat him?

Neitz used to but that's the only one I can think of who regularly troubled him.

and when has he ever had to take the lesser forward? even in the Penny days he always got Alistair Lynch, Matthew Richardson, Matthew Lloyd, Brendan Fevola etc and cained them.

Poor disposal yes agreed.

Outstanding defender.......no question.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Over the last 5 years, there are 3 fullbacks who stand apart in my view.

Matthew Scarlett,
Darren Glass,
Max Hudghton.

Why? Not because of dash, though Scarlett's the most exciting of the 3. Not for wrestling, though all 3 are capable, but because of closing speed, these 3 are the toughest players in the league to beat when fit. The 3 above have all made quality players look foolish many more times than the reverse. They win 1-out, they win with numbers, they make their teammates better around them.

Max has gotten done a couple of times this year (from memory I think Brown and Franklin both kicked 3+ on him, which has been VERY unusual since he took over the reigns in the backline), but has had one of the best shutdown records in the AFL. His great defense is a big part of the reason that Penny is rarely cited as a major loss between the Saints of '04 and now.

He doesn't get his due mainly because he doesn't run the ball, he's not a great disposal, and so he never shows up looking good on TV... so he doesn't get any press. He could line his house with the scalps he's taken though.

What I like most about Hudghy is he can play smalls as well as talls.

[perfectionist]

Over the last 5 years, there are 3 fullbacks who stand apart in my view.

Matthew Scarlett,
Darren Glass,
Max Hudghton.....

.... His great defense is a big part of the reason that Penny is rarely cited as a major loss between the Saints of '04 and now.

He doesn't get his due mainly because he doesn't run the ball, he's not a great disposal...

First, comparing Scarlett to Hudghton is like comparing Kingsley to Lockett! And what about Mal Michael (three flags) and Dustin Fletcher (2) and even Leo Barry? Can you imagine Max taking that premiership winning mark? He hasn't taken a contested mark in his whole career. It's punch, punch, punch.

As far as Penny is concerned I suggest you get DVDs of 2004 games and see who marked and who didn't, see who kicked both feet and who didn't and see who kicked to position and who didn't.

His "minor" faults that you acknowledge ie not running the ball and not correctly disposing of the ball are two thirds of a full back's job. Yes, he punches away from his opponent who does not score but often directly to another opposition player who does! Great defence!

The sooner he goes the sooner we can start building a premiership winning back line.

[Mr Magic]

And Max is always given the task of playing on teh opposition's most dangerous forward.

Players like :-
Franklin
Fevola
B. Johnson
N Brown

It doesn't matter if they are 'talls' or 'smalls'

Scarlett is considered the pre-eminent full-back/defender of the past decade, yet when was the last time he played on Riewoldt? He always goes to a 'slow tall' so that his team can utilize his dash.

Perfectionist, I think you are being particularly harsh on Max and not giving him the kudos he deserves.

[perfectionist]

...Perfectionist, I think you are being particularly harsh on Max and not giving him the kudos he deserves.

I do say what he can do, but I'm honest about he weaknesses. Just why some players should be immune from criticism whilst others get bagged remorselessly is quite amusing. If you want to win a flag you must start at full back - and you need a star, not a plodder. Simple as that, as history has shown.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Over the last 5 years, there are 3 fullbacks who stand apart in my view.

Matthew Scarlett,
Darren Glass,
Max Hudghton.....

.... His great defense is a big part of the reason that Penny is rarely cited as a major loss between the Saints of '04 and now.

He doesn't get his due mainly because he doesn't run the ball, he's not a great disposal...

First, comparing Scarlett to Hudghton is like comparing Kingsley to Lockett!

You should have read the next sentence. The part between your ellipses about why those 3.

And what about Mal Michael (three flags)

Last 5 years. Got shown up post - Leppitsch.

and Dustin Fletcher (2)

How many flags actually playing fullback? (hint: the guy who played fullback in 2000 is a 2 flag winning fullback, but isn't Fletcher). Last 5 years regularly beaten by leading forwards.

and even Leo Barry?

pfffft.

Can you imagine Max taking that premiership winning mark? He hasn't taken a contested mark in his whole career. It's punch, punch, punch.

That mark made great TV.

It was a really, really stupid thing to do. Spoil for the boundary line every time. If that mark hadn't come off, Barry wouldn't be in the AFL anymore because the attempt would have cost them the game.

Max in the same situation, the ball gets spoiled over the line, the throw in becomes a 2 second scrum and the game ends the same way. Less replays though.

As far as Penny is concerned I suggest you get DVDs of 2004 games and see who marked and who didn't, see who kicked both feet and who didn't and see who kicked to position and who didn't.

Not sure what you're alluding to. I was big wraps for Penny, and think his early retirement was tragic... if you're agreeing, great. If not, well, going by the above, we're not going to agree on fullbacks in a hurry. It's a defensive position.

His "minor" faults that you acknowledge ie not running the ball and not correctly disposing of the ball are two thirds of a full back's job.

You think shutting down the most dangerous offensive player on the ground is a 3rd of his job? We'd all love to have Scarlett... but unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Shutting down his opponent is a fullbacks first job... which is why Scarlett often doesn't play FB anymore...

Yes, he punches away from his opponent who does not score but often directly to another opposition player who does! Great defence!

1) That's nonsense. His spoils hit the boundary regularly, go to advantage regularly.
2) If the balls coming down on his mans head, priority #1 is stopping his man from scoring.
3) Other opposition players have opponents too. Max gives more aid then he recieves.

The sooner he goes the sooner we can start building a premiership winning back line.

Max is perennially underrated. I expect better from Saints fans. He is one of the best shutdown men in the league. He can play tall or small. His disposal is also nowhere near as bad as this thread would imply. It's a deficiency, and he generally covers it well by effectively getting it to someone whose is better.