Cj and the finals

[kaos theory]

I would definately have CJ in at finals,he is hard at it allways ,disposal is not as bad as some on here believe,and NO side in the history of the game has ever had a complete team of silky skilled players

Except for the team that wins the flag....

We have Ball, x c.larke to come in. Who goes out?

We have Mini to fight with Birss for the midfield tagger role (personnaly I would take mini).

The possible outs are:
- c.gardiner
- Eddy
- Jones


R.clarke & gwilt give us critical forward & defensive flexibility. Especially if c. gardiner goes out, we need these guys. Jones doesn't play these roles. Assuming r. clrake keeps his momentum going, he will become very important imo......

[st_Trav_ofWA]

all this talk of CJ being a risk cause his disposal is bad i would say that it is a team wide curse we have possibly the worst dissposal by foot in the comp not just CJ is guilty ... how many Gram kick and hope kicks have we seen this year ? how many Lenny wide open shots at goal have we seen him spray ?? how many bally kicks have missed targets ??
even Bangers has shanked a few this year but unlike the majority of the Team CJ is on the improve when it comes to his disposal . is he going to be the next brownlow medalist for us ? HELL NO but he does offer somthing to the team and he earns his spot each week , hes one of the hardest trainers and he always leaves nothing left in the tank during the game i can see why RL rates him more then the internet baggers

[rodgerfox]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

here i though good opponents didnt let the other team get the ball .....

Yep, I've seen lots of AFL games where a team is kept posessionless for 120 minutes.

[noob]

his getting better but his no match winner.. i just cant see a player the likes of him winning a premiership it doesn't sound right. his a forward player and he can't even kick 50 metres.

[bergsone]

I would definately have CJ in at finals,he is hard at it allways ,disposal is not as bad as some on here believe,and NO side in the history of the game has ever had a complete team of silky skilled players

Except for the team that wins the flag....

We have Ball, x c.larke to come in. Who goes out?

We have Mini to fight with Birss for the midfield tagger role (personnaly I would take mini).

The possible outs are:
- c.gardiner
- Eddy
- Jones


R.clarke & gwilt give us critical forward & defensive flexibility. Especially if c. gardiner goes out, we need these guys. Jones doesn't play these roles. Assuming r. clrake keeps his momentum going, he will become very important imo......

FWIW my outs would be Charlie,eddy...Ball ,X in

[markp]

If he's our worst player we're laughing.

Big heart, sense of urgency, keen as anything, finds the ball.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

here i though good opponents didnt let the other team get the ball .....

Yep, I've seen lots of AFL games where a team is kept posessionless for 120 minutes.

Roger far be it for me to doubt your football brain after all im not the one producing my own weekly report

a player in the heat of the game isnt going to let anyone have the ball do you honestly in the heat of the game think the players know who exactly is getting the ball ?? can you honestly see a player in the pack saying "oh its ok its number 38 got the ball i dont have to takcle him "? its a stupid comment to say players let players like CJ get the ball

[rodgerfox]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

here i though good opponents didnt let the other team get the ball .....

Yep, I've seen lots of AFL games where a team is kept posessionless for 120 minutes.

Roger far be it for me to doubt your football brain after all im not the one producing my own weekly report

You can doubt my 'football brain' as much as you like - that I have no issue with at all. It's that you're a sarcastic smartass that I have the issue with.

a player in the heat of the game isnt going to let anyone have the ball do you honestly in the heat of the game think the players know who exactly is getting the ball ?? can you honestly see a player in the pack saying "oh its ok its number 38 got the ball i dont have to takcle him "? its a stupid comment to say players let players like CJ get the ball

Are you serious?

You seriously believe AFL is played like the U11s where everyone is simply running around ladly trying to get the pill?

Players, coaches and runners know exactly who is getting the ball, and what they're doing with it.

Watch how hard our opponents work to prevent Gram getting the ball at HB. They leave guys like CJ and Max alone to block, zone and double team the damaging players.

It's exactly what happens at AFL level, and infact at most decent levels of footy.

I'm staggered that you aren't aware of this? What do you do when you go to game? Stand there and scream 'kick the bloody thing' every 5 seconds??!

[Otiman]

its a stupid comment to say players let players like CJ get the ball

Not necessarily in pack situations, but i've seen opponents stand 10m off CJ so he's the only target that can be kicked to, then once he has the ball, pressure is on.

Some may say he's good at finding space, others may say the opposition let him have it.

[SAINT JUMP]

so you go to watch the game, just to annalise cj game

[realdeal]

In what was a terrible opening Qtr and a half CJ was one of the guys keeping us in the game with his pressure and constant running and presenting. To see this you'd have to have been at the game.

He'll never be an A grade player but his disposal has improved and he never stops chasing, harrassing etc.. Right now he easily deserves his spot imo.

[meher baba]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

here i though good opponents didnt let the other team get the ball .....

Yep, I've seen lots of AFL games where a team is kept posessionless for 120 minutes.

Roger far be it for me to doubt your football brain after all im not the one producing my own weekly report

a player in the heat of the game isnt going to let anyone have the ball do you honestly in the heat of the game think the players know who exactly is getting the ball ?? can you honestly see a player in the pack saying "oh its ok its number 38 got the ball i dont have to takcle him "? its a stupid comment to say players let players like CJ get the ball

rf put it a bit too crudely, but opposing teams do man up more on some players than others

At one end of the spectrum is a hard tag, and at the other end of the spectrum is where you allow your opponent to run loose when you don't feel that they can do too much damage to you with the ball in their hands.

And we all know that CJ is down the "allowed to run loose" end of the spectrum. Given that, we need to find the right place on the field to use him: which IMO would be inside our forward 50 as much as possible. Yet, on Sunday, he seemed to be spending a fair bit of time back of the centre square, where he is an unjustifiable risk IMO.

And I actually think it is good news that we now have so many quality players fit and in in form that there might not be a spot for him in the team for the finals.

I certainly expect to see him play against the Bombers and I would expect him to play plenty of games for us next season and in years to come. But I think that, up against a Collingwood or Geelong or even the Swans at the G, he is going to be a luxury we can't afford when we are contemplating playing him ahead of an X or a Birss or a McQualter or perhaps even an Eddy.

Because, unlike Raph or Grammy, we aren't simply talking about the occasional stuff up resulting in a goal to the other side. We are talking about as many as a dozen guaranteeed sub-optimal disposals that will detract from our performance on the scoreboard. Sure, he might also win a couple of turnovers, but these need to be balanced off against those he is almost certain to give away.

[bigcarl]

he is going to be a luxury we can't afford when we are contemplating playing him ahead of an X or a Birss or a McQualter or perhaps even an Eddy.

he gets more of the ball than those guys, important in a team that seldom approaches the geelong benchmark of 400-plus possessions per game.

that said, i would find a spot for X and one of birss/mcqualter ... but not at the expense of cj.

[meher baba]

He'll never be an A grade player but his disposal has improved and he never stops chasing, harrassing etc.. Right now he easily deserves his spot imo.

I'm not wanting to single you out, but this comment sums up the analytical approach of so many posters on here: it's all about effort, effort, effort and hardly at all about skills. It's also about magnifying one howler (which any player - even a Harves or a Riewoldt - is sometimes going to make) as the excuse for calling for some highly skilled players to be delisted, while constantly forgiving those who are constantly trying hard but really don't achieve all that much with their efforts.

It's why we are so hard on a Dal or a Raph or (in the past) on a BJ, but are very forgiving of the likes of CJ (although, interestingly enough, we weren't too nice about McGough or, until recently, Blake, so it's all a bit selective at the end of the day).

I know it is often said that a team of champions will always lose to a champion team. But I think it's nonsense: a "champion team" of triers will beat a bunch of prima donnas who are so far up themselves that they think that they just have to show up to play.

But a team full of CJ-type players will be torn to shreds by a team full of Careys, Abletts, Harveys, Vosses, McLeods et al every day of the year.

[saintbob]

IMO RL loves the way CJ goes about it and would never consider dropping him for the finals,
As long as we continue to have so many outside players, CJ will always be in the first 10 picked every week.
His disposal has greatly improved, but its his tenacity at the ball and his ability to run all day and unlike other so called superstars in our side he actually chases and harrasses more than any else in the team, except maybe Lenny and Bally.

[rodgerfox]

For the record, I quite like CJ.

I also don't buy the whole 'will never be a premiership player' line.

There's plenty of average premiership players out there.

[markp]

But a team full of CJ-type players will be torn to shreds by a team full of Careys, Abletts, Harveys, Vosses, McLeods et al every day of the year.

Firstly which team is 'full' of all (or anything resembling) those players?

Secondly, CJ is always going to be in our famous bottom 6, and is referred to in that context. In bottom 6 terms, he is a gem.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

here i though good opponents didnt let the other team get the ball .....

Yep, I've seen lots of AFL games where a team is kept posessionless for 120 minutes.

Roger far be it for me to doubt your football brain after all im not the one producing my own weekly report

You can doubt my 'football brain' as much as you like - that I have no issue with at all. It's that you're a sarcastic smartass that I have the issue with.

a player in the heat of the game isnt going to let anyone have the ball do you honestly in the heat of the game think the players know who exactly is getting the ball ?? can you honestly see a player in the pack saying "oh its ok its number 38 got the ball i dont have to takcle him "? its a stupid comment to say players let players like CJ get the ball

Are you serious? in a word yes

You seriously believe AFL is played like the U11s where everyone is simply running around ladly trying to get the pill? - never said that roger but in the heat of the game the players dont analyse who they will tackle and who they wont when the ball is in the opposing teams possesion all players will try and take it off them weather it be CJ or chris Judd its called being accountable - but then again a GT fan like yourself might not get that

Players, coaches and runners know exactly who is getting the ball, and what they're doing with it. - i know never doubted that

Watch how hard our opponents work to prevent Gram getting the ball at HB. They leave guys like CJ and Max alone to block, zone and double team the damaging players. - playing close attention to more dammaging players is not "letting " less damaging players get the ball it
It's exactly what happens at AFL level, and infact at most decent levels of footy. Really i would love to hear a coach at any serious level say to his players " now son i want you to let no. 38 have the ball " i can tell ya RL never says that in fact i can tell you he stresses maning up and not letting you player get the ball
I'm staggered that you aren't aware of this? What do you do when you go to game? Stand there and scream 'kick the bloody thing' every 5 seconds??!- no

[desertsaint]

Does he deserve to be in our current 22?

IMO yes!

Include Ball and X in last weeks side and who misses out? Down to CJ, Birss, Eddy, Raph, Gwilt, and C. Gardiner. I'd go with Gwilt, Birss, CJ and...(nervous twitching... Raph).

[Saints Premiers 2008]

cj has to play, we need more players who have the same intensity and really look like the way to be out there

cj's primary job is not foot disposal, it is to tackle and harrass...

if you criticize cj's kicking then wil you criticize maxs' kicking efforts??? they are shocking

[python]

i dont think its a matter of letting a certain player have the ball, its more of giving them the easier match ups and allowing them to roam across the ground without a heavy tag. They can get as much of the ball as they like, but if they arent damaging with it, they arent as valuable as those that are, and i wouldnt think the coaches would mind too much if a bloke like cj was getting touches, cos he doesnt hit a target like goddard

Its the damaging blokes theyre worried about stopping, ablett, judd black etc, i know id rather have them have under 15 touches and a guy like cj over 30 cos if you let the stars get that, its pretty much game over, whilst as much as i like cjs game, he doesnt hurt teams as much as others can and will do.

And i can guarantee Lyon would emphasize manning up on one of the guns over the lesser midfielder types, and in doing so, he is allowing the lesser ones a freer reign over the field

[bendigo bob]

Another great insight there Rodger...good players who let their oponent get the ball....yet again showing how much football you have ever played or how much you know about the game. flog

That is very naive.

Opposition want Max, CJ and Blake to get the ball (obviously if we have to get posession at all).

They will leave these guys free and double team BJ, Gram, Sam Fisher etc.

When Max, Blake, CJ etc. are getting the ball across half back, it's no coincidence that as a team, we look slow, inefficient and can't score.

As soon as our coaching department respond and create ways for our good players to get their hands on it - we look better immediately.

It's hardly an insight. It's basic footy knowledge and common sense.


It's also why teams bust their arse to ensure their good kickers are getting loose ball. It's why Geelong work so hard to protect Ablett. It's why we used to work so hard to get the nut in Aussie Jones' hands.

It's often why you find the very good kicks take the kick ins from FB and go short - then end up getting it back themselves. It frees them up and allows to them to get their hands on it.

Sorry bob_71 have to agree with rodger here. Think back to the 97 GF who did the Crows leave unmanned to receive the ball whenever they could - Jack Daniels. Why? - because he was clearly the worst kick in hte team at that time. If you dont believe it have a look at the replay sometime. It sticks out like the proverbial dogs agates.

[SAINT JUMP]

just watched replay, taped it. cj was on mcleod the whole last quarter. Paper stats last qr cj 6 pos mcleod 2. mmm

[villasaint]

i have definetely changed my opinion on cj. Tackling is good runs all day, does everything but kick the ball properly. His kicking has improved lots in the two season he has been with us and continue to improve. If he continues with his tackling and harassing and continues to get a bit of ball himself as well his place in the team is safe. 10 games ago I would have said there is not way he should be on our ilst let alone in out best 22.

[Bernard Shakey]

CJ has performed admirably this year, but we are at the pointy end of the season now and if he has to make way for the likes of X and Ball, so be it.

As for his last quarter 6 possies to McLeods 2, the game was over.