Dal & Kosi wanted at club

[maverick]

My thoughts from another thread

A trade would be very risky.....and it could hurt more than anything...

Trade him to a rival club for a DP....the kid does not live up to expectation (Armo - at same stage Dal had played 31 games) and he goes to essendon and dominates and they go past us>>>>that would be very silly....

Trade him for Kerr......what is the benefit.....is Kerr any better???? Ling held Kerr to 12 possesions this season, he can be tagged, and has struggled as a frontline mid......how have his stats been since Judd and Cuz hav moved on????
How would Dal go with Judd and Cousins in their prime in the same midfield??????
Kerr is a moron of a bloke, can seriously play, has discipline issues...
He would be great....at what cost?????

Stats are just that - stats....and can be interpereted a couple of ways....his numbers in our losses can also mean that....
he is that important, if you control him we lose.....Lenny on the other hand can play well, but it does not necissarily mean we win.....
Look at his ranking points.....even with 20 touches, he outperforms players with 25+......why????

Defensive side/Toughness......he ranks top 4 in tackles/Hardball gets at the club....

does not stand up in big game?????
Hawthorn in R16 springs to mind (he turned the game).......Collingwood in the Semi (was that not a big game)....just off the top of my head....
Question.....why doe Dal get the #1 tag......and not Joey, Hayes, Harves, Ball....

When looking at a player - do you look at only ONE season to gather their worth to the team?????........what if they had an off year, or were carrying some injury????.....if we took a top 20 DP for Dal in 2007 would you be happy........What about 2005 when he was an AA and finished three in the Brownlow....would we have taken a top 20 then......point is, he can seriously play......you trade good players at your peril....

Last point
The reason a group stays loyal is this.....they become good mates and grow to love the organisation that are at.....if a mate is dumped by the organisation.....the players realise they are dispensible and start thinking of themselves, not the group......trust is gone if loyaly is not shown.....both ways....

actually one more point......his numbers are far from poor.....

is he a scapegoat????

Do we bag him because of unrealistic expectations.......and admire Lenny/Ball who have similar numbers......because they appear to tougher????......I have a theory..

Kosi was injured this season......has anyone considered that....he barely trained and moved like a man with a sore knee and zero fitness.....and still took some grabs (which is all he could do)

Some good points he BM, but the problem with Dal, particularly in the Hawks game, was that I thought Bateman was BOG because not only did he nullify Dal, but he won some quality footy through the middle and set them up. No excuse for not putting pressure back on Bateman, except of course you are injured.

Dal has lost confidence IMO, certainly lays more tackles and is better in close, but doesn't do enough gut running, and takes too many easy options sideways and backwards.

Look at Raph, he gets bagged on here for his clangers, but he constantly takes blokes on and takes risks through dangerous parts of the ground. Dal does none of this. Yes his efficiency is high and his disposal very good, but he plays safe afr too often for me.

I would hate to lose Dal, but he needs to get fitter and take more risks.
I think Kosi was injured as well.

[FortiusQuoFidelius]

I would hate to lose Dal, but he needs to get fitter and take more risks.
I think Kosi was injured as well.

Dal will never take more risks because he is too selfish!

[bigcarl]

Stats can be interpereted a couple of ways. his numbers in our losses can also mean that he is that important, if you control him we lose

very good point.

our opponents realise this and place their best tagger on him week after week.

there must be a way to help him throw off the tags.

for instance how about assigning him a role on one of their stars. he'd benefit from being the hunter rather than the hunted for a while, i think.

[Geezer]

dal and joey.
good one way players.
they need a two way game.


kozi - well KPP dont grow on tree's so you really cant entertain a trade for him unless its a knockout offer.

[Saints94]

dal and joey.
good one way players.
they need a two way game.


kozi - well KPP dont grow on tree's so you really cant entertain a trade for him unless its a knockout offer.

Bulldogs are looking for a tall forward i say trade him for Gilbee and Giansericusa

[SENsei]

Stats can be interpereted a couple of ways. his numbers in our losses can also mean that he is that important, if you control him we lose

very good point.

our opponents realise this and place their best tagger on him week after week.

there must be a way to help him throw off the tags.

for instance how about assigning him a role on one of their stars. he'd benefit from being the hunter rather than the hunted for a while, i think.

Very valid point.

However, this was done on Saturday night with Bateman with no success.

[Richter]

Kosi would have to be a chance to go if the right offer came up. The Bulldogs would be in the market and could make a good play. What if they came up with a first round pick and a player such as Harbrow?

We'd have to be mad not to consider it.

Kosi would not command that much IMO. A first rounder at best.

Kosi is a GOP ruckman and GOP FF. Not the out-and-out star we had all hoped for but still you get two GOPs for the price of one. That makes him excellent value - he is going to continue to fill the utility role as that allows us to play just the one out and out ruckman instead of two.

If we traded him we'd need another around the ground ruckman (who we do not have) or a ruckman AND a FF. And we won't be offered enough of a deal by other clubs to get this.

[Richter]

Why has nobody mwentioned the proposed contract extension for Ross Lyon?

IMO this is a tad premature. He still has a season to run on his contract, and while we came fourth we didn't set the world on fire.

The club is "thrilled" by Lyons efforts this year??????

Well they have a higher thrill tolerance than me.

I thought he went OK with the cattle we had, but it wasn't a really strong performance.

A contract extention may prove to be a millstone around our necks.

I hear you jb, but the article only mentions ONE extra year. That sounds about right to me. I doubt that he's on big $$ so even in the unlikely event that we totally go weak next year and want to ge rid of him it would not be an expensive payout.

Announcing an extra year now would project an appropriate level of stability IMO. The other coaching positions I'm not sure about. SOS, yes. But Rock and Barker must come under some scrutiny one would think.

[St DAC]

Dal will never take more risks because he is too selfish!

And you base that opinion on your detailed intimate knowledge of Dal personally, do you?

We are very quick to label players without any actual facts IMO. Dal hasn't had his best season, but it could hardly be classed as "poor" either. He was a key player in our finals win over Collingwood lo these many days ago.

Short memories around here ... there were plenty others also short of form last Saturday night.

[jk23]

My thoughts from another thread

A trade would be very risky.....and it could hurt more than anything...

Trade him to a rival club for a DP....the kid does not live up to expectation (Armo - at same stage Dal had played 31 games) and he goes to essendon and dominates and they go past us>>>>that would be very silly....

Trade him for Kerr......what is the benefit.....is Kerr any better???? Ling held Kerr to 12 possesions this season, he can be tagged, and has struggled as a frontline mid......how have his stats been since Judd and Cuz hav moved on????
How would Dal go with Judd and Cousins in their prime in the same midfield??????
Kerr is a moron of a bloke, can seriously play, has discipline issues...
He would be great....at what cost?????

Stats are just that - stats....and can be interpereted a couple of ways....his numbers in our losses can also mean that....
he is that important, if you control him we lose.....Lenny on the other hand can play well, but it does not necissarily mean we win.....
Look at his ranking points.....even with 20 touches, he outperforms players with 25+......why????

Defensive side/Toughness......he ranks top 4 in tackles/Hardball gets at the club....

does not stand up in big game?????
Hawthorn in R16 springs to mind (he turned the game).......Collingwood in the Semi (was that not a big game)....just off the top of my head....
Question.....why doe Dal get the #1 tag......and not Joey, Hayes, Harves, Ball....

When looking at a player - do you look at only ONE season to gather their worth to the team?????........what if they had an off year, or were carrying some injury????.....if we took a top 20 DP for Dal in 2007 would you be happy........What about 2005 when he was an AA and finished three in the Brownlow....would we have taken a top 20 then......point is, he can seriously play......you trade good players at your peril....

Last point
The reason a group stays loyal is this.....they become good mates and grow to love the organisation that are at.....if a mate is dumped by the organisation.....the players realise they are dispensible and start thinking of themselves, not the group......trust is gone if loyaly is not shown.....both ways....

actually one more point......his numbers are far from poor.....

is he a scapegoat????

Do we bag him because of unrealistic expectations.......and admire Lenny/Ball who have similar numbers......because they appear to tougher????......I have a theory..

Kosi was injured this season......has anyone considered that....he barely trained and moved like a man with a sore knee and zero fitness.....and still took some grabs (which is all he could do)

Some good points he BM, but the problem with Dal, particularly in the Hawks game, was that I thought Bateman was BOG because not only did he nullify Dal, but he won some quality footy through the middle and set them up. No excuse for not putting pressure back on Bateman, except of course you are injured.

Dal has lost confidence IMO, certainly lays more tackles and is better in close, but doesn't do enough gut running, and takes too many easy options sideways and backwards.

Look at Raph, he gets bagged on here for his clangers, but he constantly takes blokes on and takes risks through dangerous parts of the ground. Dal does none of this. Yes his efficiency is high and his disposal very good, but he plays safe afr too often for me.

I would hate to lose Dal, but he needs to get fitter and take more risks.
I think Kosi was injured as well.

Agreed, I think Kosi has been injured for most of the year...........

[SainterK]

Not to mention Saturday night, in a heavy collision with Luke Hodge....obviously both pulled up very sore, both saw the game out, one receives all the attention for heroics.

[FortiusQuoFidelius]

Dal will never take more risks because he is too selfish!

And you base that opinion on your detailed intimate knowledge of Dal personally, do you?

Just my opinion, thats all.

Isnt that what this forum is all about? Expressing one's opinion?

[plugger66]

only a fool or a nuff nuff forum lurker......probably an opposition supporter to boot.....would consider trading dal or kossi...thankfully ross and the boys are neither...........

Only a fool wouldnt look at offers for any player at your club.

[Duggie1]

If Dal Santo and Kositzke are retained surely they will take note of what their captain has openly said about them and act appropriately. But they both need to start very early, even before the start of the pre season.

[Richter]

only a fool or a nuff nuff forum lurker......probably an opposition supporter to boot.....would consider trading dal or kossi...thankfully ross and the boys are neither...........

Only a fool wouldnt look at offers for any player at your club.

You're right on the money Stinger it would seem.

[Richter]

A trade would be very risky.....and it could hurt more than anything...

........................

he is that important, if you control him we lose.....Lenny on the other hand can play well, but it does not necissarily mean we win.....
Look at his ranking points.....even with 20 touches, he outperforms players with 25+......why????

Defensive side/Toughness......he ranks top 4 in tackles/Hardball gets at the club....

.........................

When looking at a player - do you look at only ONE season to gather their worth to the team?????........what if they had an off year, or were carrying some injury????.....point is, he can seriously play......you trade good players at your peril....

Last point
The reason a group stays loyal is this.....they become good mates and grow to love the organisation that are at.....if a mate is dumped by the organisation.....the players realise they are dispensible and start thinking of themselves, not the group......trust is gone if loyaly is not shown.....both ways....

Just had to re highlight these points. The best things that I have read about this issue in the last few days. The bolded one in particular. There are folks on here who I reckon have never successfully worked in a team environment and will not ever understand the point that you are making here.

One muppet on another thread advocated trading these players and then had the gall to end his/her post with "STRENGTH THROUGH LOYALTY"

[sunsaint]

A trade would be very risky.....and it could hurt more than anything...



Last point
The reason a group stays loyal is this.....they become good mates and grow to love the organisation that are at.....if a mate is dumped by the organisation.....the players realise they are dispensible and start thinking of themselves, not the group......trust is gone if loyaly is not shown.....both ways....

Just had to re highlight these points. The best things that I have read about this issue in the last few days. The bolded one in particular. There are folks on here who I reckon have never successfully worked in a team environment and will not ever understand the point that you are making here.

One muppet on another thread advocated trading these players and then had the gall to end his/her post with "STRENGTH THROUGH LOYALTY"

and start thinking of themselves, not the group......trust is gone if loyaly is not shown.....both ways....

But isnt this is what is frustrating -most- StKilda supprters, NDS just trots round playing his own game to the detriment of the team plan and so his team mates....?

[iwantmeseats]

Why has nobody mwentioned the proposed contract extension for Ross Lyon?

IMO this is a tad premature. He still has a season to run on his contract, and while we came fourth we didn't set the world on fire.

The club is "thrilled" by Lyons efforts this year??????

Well they have a higher thrill tolerance than me.

I thought he went OK with the cattle we had, but it wasn't a really strong performance.

A contract extention may prove to be a millstone around our necks.

Definately agree, was shocked to read that. There is no need, and the performance just dosent justify it, even with the improvement in the second half of the year. "thrilled"? , that made me cringe. You cannot be "thrilled" with a season unless you win a flag. FFS< is mediocrity acceptance just continuing as per normal doewn at moorabbin? Its really beyond a joke. We neede some tough talkers, and more importantly tough decision makers.

[3rd generation saint]

As I said before re Kosi, despite having what most would say an average to so so season, he still managed to kick nearly 30 goals this season.

Now if we are to trade him, we need to trade him for someone who will kick that many goals or more for us.

Therefore I wouldn't be trading him, if he kicks 30 - 40 goals next year I'd be very happy.

[Richter]

But isnt this is what is frustrating -most- StKilda supprters, NDS just trots round playing his own game to the detriment of the team plan and so his team mates....?

I agree that at times he looks laconic and could learn a thing or two from Harv.s about gutrunning (who couldn't).

But last week he "trotted around" to be near BOG in our win over the pies. Without him I doubt we would have beaten them and definitely would not have beaten the Hawks in the H&A season.

I don't think you'd find any Saints players who would bag him for his lack of effort or loyalty to his club though.

[St DAC]

Just my opinion, thats all.

Isnt that what this forum is all about? Expressing one's opinion?

And yet you state is as though it's unassailable fact.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion; as am I, and all other posters. But it seems to me Dal is a bit of a whipping boy around here, and if I think your opinion is crap I'm gunna call you on it.

As of course you can to me.

[plugger66]

only a fool or a nuff nuff forum lurker......probably an opposition supporter to boot.....would consider trading dal or kossi...thankfully ross and the boys are neither...........

Only a fool wouldnt look at offers for any player at your club.

You're right on the money Stinger it would seem.

Yep lets just let things run their course. Dont look at other options. Everthing is going ok afterall we finished 4th. Dont look at how many wins we were off 1st or 2nd and how mch we gotten beaten by them in the finals. Yep only a fool would do that.

[Con Gorozidis]

Agreed but what of Kosi.

hmmm...This has been his first full season, without any significant interruptions (since 2003/2004), and he has been average. I would be inclined to keep him, because he has significnat upside IF the club is confident it can help him get there.

The issue is, what is the 'probelm' with Kosi?:
1. Is it confidence
2. carrying some injury
3. Issues with with coach and/or his role
4. lack of ability

If its 1 to 3, then the club and Kosi CAN solve this and get him back to being a key contributor. At his best, he is so dangerous because of his versatility he is so hard to match up on.

If its 4, and he just doesn't have the ability to play at the top level in the modern fast-paced game, then you might say we should trade him. BUT if it is 4, then other clubs will be aware of that if we want to trade him, therefore his value will be low. (Unless someone like freo do something stupid again at the trade table and offer quality picks and players for him...).

I believe the problem lies somewhere in 1 to 3. Therefore, he can get significantly better, and be a key contributor to the club.

... here we go again....he always going to be better "next year" . stop dreaming. start facing facts. he will get worse. not better.

on dal. i agree id keep dal unless we were offered something better (kerr or dids) - but there is no chance of that so keep him.


as for kosi. why do people keep making excuses??? this has been going on WAY too long. everyone from every other clubs laughs at saints fans fantasies about kosi.

it is very simple. he is too short to be a ruckman and not agile enough to be a kpp. he kicked NIL goals against the 2 good teams in this years finals.
trade him asap for a high draft pick. or Tim Boyle and a pick .

[st.byron]

[quote="Con Gorozidis"]
as for kosi. why do people keep making excuses??? this has been going on WAY too long.
i/quote]

Amen to that Con. Have been saying for yonks that evaluation of Kosi needs to be based on what he's actually delivered and not what he might deliver.

The list of excuses for him is as long as his arm. Surprised to see the old "playing injured" chestnut being thrown up again. He's had two nearly full seasons and is still as inconsistent as buggery. If he's injured why the hell is he playing? Give someone who's fully fit a crack. If he's not injured then his performances over the last two seasons are not up to par. Not looking at individual games but his overall contribution.
He's not untouchable IMO and if a good deal could be struck involving him, it should be seriously considered.
Doubt very much that he'll be traded though. Will be in a Saints jumper next year.

[Ralphy]

f*** im sick of all this Trade kosi and dal talk
they are not leaving,