On the Couch and the old hoary chestnut bottom six debate

[Thinline]

'St Kilda's bottom six are very ordinary players'.

So sayeth Robert Walls last night.

Mind you, the way both he and Sheahan were talking, you would have thought we fiished a game adrift of the Demons...But it's their prerogative to appear edgy and harsh, so I don't take it personally... Mind you their sycophancy towards Neil 'can't win a final' Craig was a little sickly...Anyway, I digress...

I have a couple of problems with the 'bottom six' argument. For starters, the composition changes every week - against Geelong in the QF, for instance, Nick Riewoldt was a bottom sixer! Also, it implies that six players are either not trying, talentless or ill-equipped. I don't buy that either. ALL AFL level footballers are talented. In my view it comes down to consistency of effort, mostly. Referring to a 'bottom six' also implies that there's a batch of players locked in a cellar who will never climb out. Far from the case. I mean Sam Fisher was a pick 53 player was he not?

But one thing identifying the bottom six does is allow an opportunity to focus on who can improve and how they can go about it.

So with that in mind, who are our bottom six and what do they need to do?

Now a quick disclaimer: I list these blokes not to bag them - to a man I'm sure they try their guts out - and they are infinitely more talented than most of the geese contributing to this forum. More a way of pinpointing exactly where we need to improve to have an even contribution from 22 rather than relying on the efforts of 16-18 week in / week out.

So consider it an exercise in encouragement.

To get things rolling, with suggested improvements and a few questions, I say:

McQualter - Leg speed and hard ball winning. Is there time for him to become quicker? How do you 'make' someone a hard ball collector?

Eddy - Marking, set shots and accountability. Catch the thing! And when you're 35 out, slight angle, don't miss! When you're given a job on a man, stay on him like your life depends on it (a la Ling). Young and by all appearances passionate. Will improve quickly I reckon. Maybe I expect too much from the kid?

Gwilt - lovely left foot I reckon - perhaps work on being an effective marking option forward? Can this be done at his stage of development?

Armitage - all well and good putting your head over it, but you've got to pick it up and use it too! Query why the OTC panel insinuated something other than skill that may be keeping him out of the side??? In my view he is THE ONE who needs to be loaded up with responsibility. He simply HAS to become an A grade midfielder. That means a preseason like you wouldn't believe.

Fiora - Quick, fit and a reasonable kick. Has to find the ball! How do you teach someone - especially a senior player - to do this?

Clint Jones - 'A' for effort, 'A' for tackling pressure, but needs to find more ball and use it effectively when he finds it. Can he be taught this?

With the one obvious exception, all these players are relative novices, and I take great heart from that. The question is, how quickly can young-ish bodies and minds be fast-tracked?

[ThePunter]

Raph Clarke, Clinton Jones, Andrew McQualter, Robert Eddy, Sam Gilbert, James Gwilt and David Armitage all played on Saturday night. None have played 50 games of AFL football.

Between them, on September 1 they had 5 finals between them. Now they have 25 finals between them.

Except for Jones, I don't think any of them are 23 years old.

While I do believe that we would have done better with other players in the side instead of Gwilt, Eddy & McQualter, I believe Clarke was our player of the finals, Jones did a job on Leon Davis who cut us up earlier in the season, Gilbert got beat early but kept working and will be very good, and Armitage had 7 tackles.

Who doesn't believe pretty much everyone of these players will be significantly better next season? Throw in Allen, McEvoy, Steven & Howard, and there is plenty to be optimistic about.

[rodgerfox]

The bottom 6 look woeful when your top 6 play poorly.

When your top 6 are on fire, your bottom 6 look pretty good. They get carried.


As for our current bottom 6, it's probably worse than the previous bottom 6 that was trimmed off to get these guys to the club.

[rodgerfox]

If the bottom 6 is so important, why don't club trade for bottom 6 players?

[Thinline]

Who doesn't believe pretty much everyone of these players will be significantly better next season? Throw in Allen, McEvoy, Steven & Howard, and there is plenty to be optimistic about.

That's the point I was trying to make, Punter. And that's why I take great heart in celebrating/encouraging/shaping what we've got. I suppose the question I probably wasted too many words in trying to ask is how fast can you develop kids? Is 50 games a benchmark? Or is three seasons of exposure to AFL standard football enough time to expect players to be equipped?

[Thinline]

Raph Clarke, Clinton Jones, Andrew McQualter, Robert Eddy, Sam Gilbert, James Gwilt and David Armitage all played on Saturday night. None have played 50 games of AFL football.

Between them, on September 1 they had 5 finals between them. Now they have 25 finals between them.

Except for Jones, I don't think any of them are 23 years old.

While I do believe that we would have done better with other players in the side instead of Gwilt, Eddy & McQualter, I believe Clarke was our player of the finals, Jones did a job on Leon Davis who cut us up earlier in the season, Gilbert got beat early but kept working and will be very good, and Armitage had 7 tackles.

Who doesn't believe pretty much everyone of these players will be significantly better next season? Throw in Allen, McEvoy, Steven & Howard, and there is plenty to be optimistic about.

[rodgerfox]

Who doesn't believe pretty much everyone of these players will be significantly better next season? Throw in Allen, McEvoy, Steven & Howard, and there is plenty to be optimistic about.

I don't.


Allen needs to improve. Hopefully he can.

Armitage will be a player.

The rest (Eddy, Jones etc.) I can't see improving at all. They're battlers.

[Animal Enclosure]

'St Kilda's bottom six are very ordinary players'.


McQualter - Leg speed and hard ball winning. Is there time for him to become quicker? How do you 'make' someone a hard ball collector?

Eddy - Marking, set shots and accountability. Catch the thing! And when you're 35 out, slight angle, don't miss! When you're given a job on a man, stay on him like your life depends on it (a la Ling). Young and by all appearances passionate. Will improve quickly I reckon. Maybe I expect too much from the kid?

Gwilt - lovely left foot I reckon - perhaps work on being an effective marking option forward? Can this be done at his stage of development?

Armitage - all well and good putting your head over it, but you've got to pick it up and use it too! Query why the OTC panel insinuated something other than skill that may be keeping him out of the side??? In my view he is THE ONE who needs to be loaded up with responsibility. He simply HAS to become an A grade midfielder. That means a preseason like you wouldn't believe.

Fiora - Quick, fit and a reasonable kick. Has to find the ball! How do you teach someone - especially a senior player - to do this?

Clint Jones - 'A' for effort, 'A' for tackling pressure, but needs to find more ball and use it effectively when he finds it. Can he be taught this?

With the one obvious exception, all these players are relative novices, and I take great heart from that. The question is, how quickly can young-ish bodies and minds be fast-tracked?

Very good points Thinline. I would suggest that 'bottom 6' refers to the last 6 blokes that would be picked. This means that it includes youngsters (Armitage), blokes picked to do a specific job (Jones, Eddy) and some that are simply borderline AFL players (Fiora, McQualter, Gwilt).

Put simply our bottom six are very limited talent wise compared to the bottom 6 in the top 3 clubs. While we all have great hope for Armo, the others are just not solid quality AFL players. I admire CJ greatly, he works his arze off and is making the most of his ability. He must develop a right foot though, it's just too easy for opposition to play him on his left & he stuffed.

I'm not sold yet on Eddy. He has a great engine & tries his hardest but I haven't seen any indication that he has the football skills to hurt teams. He's missed some absolute sodas playing as a forward & that is just not good enough.

McQualter has resurrected a career that had just about flatlined. He has shown he can tag but hasn't added too much else. When Bakes is fit he's at VFL level & is ok as a depth player.

I won't start another bag Fiora post. Should be gone.

You could probably add Birss to the list but he never gets a go.

We need to get some top quality kids into the team that can develop as 'bottom 6' players and eventually make the best 22 a more even spread of pure football talent. You cannot have 22 Riewoldt like talents but the bottom end at present is just not able to compete with their direct opponent in the best teams.

[Spinner]

Who doesn't believe pretty much everyone of these players will be significantly better next season? Throw in Allen, McEvoy, Steven & Howard, and there is plenty to be optimistic about.

I don't.


Allen needs to improve. Hopefully he can.

Armitage will be a player.

The rest (Eddy, Jones etc.) I can't see improving at all. They're battlers.

Im not sold on Allen....And Howard has shown little....Hopefully he can be the bolter!!!!

[saint66au]

My 5c worth

When was the last time you read a review of a Saints loss that contained the phrase "one bright spot for the Saints in the loss was the form of young/rookie <insert name> who had 29 posessions/kicked 4 goals in a losing side"

Answer? ..I cant remember

have a look back at our losses. I reckon without fault the blokes who have a crack during a loss are the same old faces..Roo, Chipper, BJ, Lenny....

to stiffen our "bottom 6", whoever they might be, they need to stand up in games where the side as a whole doesnt play well IMHO

Raphs performance on Saturday night is close to the first time I can remember this year that a "fringe" player has put their hand up and played very well in a losing side.

[borderbarry]

With the following players fit and firing, Ball, Baker, X.Clarke, and in the team, the bottom six become the bottom three.
That is the whole point. Hawthorn and Geelong dont have a bottom 6. And neither should we. Lets hope we can recruit some good enough to push the bottom three out of the team...

[matrix]

look at raph a year ago....look at him in the last 4 weeks

look at eddie and armo now.....and then lets look at them with another pre-season and a bit more experience under their belt.

[Thinline]

Any reason why Armitage seems to stir up the odd raised eyebrow?

Often, when he's discussed in media circles, there seems to be an insinuation that there's an off-field part of his presentation that may be stalling his progress?

[terry smith rules]

Hawthorn and Geelong dont have a bottom 6. And neither should we. Lets hope we can recruit some good enough to push the bottom three out of the team...

Yes they do.

As many have said before the bottom six get carried by the rest.

You can't tell me that Hunt, Lonergan, Blake, Stokes, Varcoe and Prismall would all be walk up starts in our side

Yes they are good players but they are playing in a sensational TEAM.

[matrix]

ive hear rumors....
who knows...

[SAINT JUMP]

you say cj needs to find more of the ball, but he was the 10th highest ball getter out of the team. Plus missed what 5 or 6 game. He does need to kick more goals.6/8 for the year.Maybe with eddy and cj having a good run this year, we will see the rewards in 2009.

[Thinline]

In a midfield rotation of six or so, 10th highest is not in my opinion good enough for a midfielder (mind you he is more of a stopper). Don't get me wrong. I like him and I think he can be more than handy, but with Banger gone and other midfielders struggling somewhat, others need to lift their output.

[SAINT JUMP]

eddy and cj both played forward most of the year. It was only late in the season they got a run in the midfied

[Thinline]

Fair call.

I agree - better ball use/more goals a priority.

You're right (I hope) on Eddy and Jones - all the better for games in legs.

I genuinely hope they come on quickly.

[Red]

Rodger they do trade for bottom 6 players. We drafted Schneider, Dempster

Gardiner and King. Only Schneider would be considered top dozen at the

beginning of the year.

[rodgerfox]

Rodger they do trade for bottom 6 players. We drafted Schneider, Dempster

Gardiner and King. Only Schneider would be considered top dozen at the

beginning of the year.

So you think that Lyon purposely traded draft picks for guys to be in our bottom 6?

[Red]

I believe he tried to increase our depth. I don't believe he thought Charlie

Gardiner was going to be in our top dozen do you?

[SainterK]

Jones was picked up late in his career, probably needs to change habits and skills that have been with him a long time. I think he will be OK, he certainly has the endeavour....

[rodgerfox]

I believe he tried to increase our depth. I don't believe he thought Charlie

Gardiner was going to be in our top dozen do you?

Gardiner was a freebie though.

I'd be horrified if we went for known bottom 6ers ahead of draftee bottom 6ers who could become top 6ers.

Horrified.

[WayneJudson42]

Rodger they do trade for bottom 6 players. We drafted Schneider, Dempster

Gardiner and King. Only Schneider would be considered top dozen at the

beginning of the year.

So you think that Lyon purposely traded draft picks for guys to be in our bottom 6?

You don't trade for bottom 6 per se. You trade for depth.

here's how it works...

you trade for mid 6 players. Which means that the existing mid 6 (give or take) make up the new bottom 6. And /or some of the new trades also make up part of the mid 6.

So in effect, your mid 6 plus new recruits become a bottom 12, as the original bottom 6 get squeezed out.

Make sense? Probably not the way I've explained it... but you get my drift.

I thought it would be a simple argument. If you recruit 6 players who are better than your current bottom 6, then you improve as a whole.

In an ideal world... CJ, Mini and Eddy would not get a game. Because the 3 recruits would take their spots on the team.

Now let's extrapolate the theory further...

Name your top 12 players that would be an automatic selection.

Now name the next 6.

Suppose we recruited 4 players who took the spot of those 4 players...

Would the team be better, and would our top 6 be better?

You know it makes sense.