The Fox Report - Round 1

[Mr Magic]

Joffa, whilst I agree with you that nobody, including RL is above criticism, when it comes to my perceptions of RF's motives for posting threads, we disagree.

Not that anybody including RF will lose any sleep over it.

As for the 'youth question' I suppose it all comes back to the basic premise of where you believe the future of teh team/game is when you take over the reins?

Surely the only draft pick that can realistically be questioned under RL is that of Armitage. He's been here 2 years, is a first round pick and has yet to cement himself into our best 22. That's not to say that he won't in the future?

How many of our first round draft picks from 2004-2006 have 'made the grade'?

The criticism of GT's tenure regarding this area has consistantly been that he:-
either wasted first round picks on topping up
allowed the wrong player(s) to be picked
didn't sufficielntly develop the youth once they were picked.

Therefore the argument that RL has failed to develop youth being proposed by some in this thread is IMHO a longjump to a conclusion that the proponent(s) of that view are trying to portray.

It is a massive deflection from the absolute fact that we have, for whatever reasons, failed to produce many positive results from the drafting/list management of the 2004-2006 period. The period where we weren't getting priority picks and very high draft picks

[meher baba]

Wouldn't that mean that half the team is under 25?

Aren't you stats skewed by the fact that Lyon had to recruit ready made ruckmen because the previous philosophy was that rucks were not a priority? Gardiner and Clarke, and King all skew the average up.

Who apart from rucks has Lyon recycled that is over 24? cj was 23 i think, Schneider was 24, Ray, 22, Dawson 23, Begley 22 or 23, Dempster 24.

Are they too old? No good? How old was Andrew Thompson when recruited by the Saints?

Are you seriously suggesting that Allen, Armitage, Geary, Eddy, Heyne, Lynch, Steven, Smith, and McEvoy are not young prospects?

There is Nine kids 20 or under who should make seniors and play plenty of games for St.Kilda.

I think you are being a little bit disingenious to infer we dont have any young talent.

After Saturday night, who doesn't deserve their place in the seniors?

As you will see from my next post, I agree that we do have some young prospects, but none of them have delivered much yet.

Yes, it's true that half the team on Saturday night were 25 or under, but this group includes Dal, Gram, Ball, BJ, Raph, McQualter, Gilbert and Gwilt who were all at the club well before Lyon showed up.

As I keep saying, I don't have any problem with this. But if Lyon keeps selecting so many long-established players in his team (15 of the 22 selected on Saturday night played under GT and a further 5 were playing for other clubs when GT was still coaching), this surely suggests that - if there was anything much wrong with the way we went under GT (and views on this subject will of course differ) then it can't have been that we weren't recruiting and developing talent.

Why the need to turn this into a RL v GT thread?

How about we deal with the "here and now". GT has gone. People will be polarized in their opinions until they're 6 foot under.

I can understand that RF hates Lyon and has to find a negative to can him every week, but I'd expect better from you MB.

Do we really need this?

You weren't on the forum when some of the same posters that are now saying it is ok for Lyon to fill the team with "recycled players" droned on and on ad nauseum about how GT "lost his way" when he decided to try to "top up" with Brooks, Ackland, Guerra, McGough et al.

I'm not on about the past: I support most of Lyon's trade and rookie elevation decisions. I agree with jb that the draft picks of the past few years haven't really made a case for themselves to be selected in our top 22.

My only problem with what Lyon is doing now is it seems to me to be broadly similar to what GT was trying to do when he was, as I have been told ad nauseum, "ruining our list".

I personally think that there has been too much of a focus on our list in this forum. Some posters seem to be utterly obsessed with players that they have hardly (or never seen) or even that we haven't recruited yet (or whom would have been better than the ones we have if only we had had the insight denied to 15 other clubs and used our first round pick on a player who ended up being snapped up with pick 60 and then turned out to be a potential champion).

My view is that we had a relatively poor list at the end of 2000, but then were able to improve it steadily under Blight, GT and now Lyon to the point that - surprise, surprise - there now isn't much opportunity for youngsters to get a go in our top 22 when all our regulars are fit.

There is a chance that - at some stage this season - we might be able to field something like the following team (don't worry too much about where they are playing).

Bakes Max Gilbert
Raph Goose Chips
BJ Dal Gram
Joey Kosi Schneider
Milne Riewoldt X
Gardi Lenny Ball
Interchange: Blake Dempster McQualter Ray

Fully fit, and with Kosi, McQualter and Dal playing with the sort of form they showed on Saturday night, this team would IMO be potentially the best that we have put on the park since 1997 or so.

And the closest thing to a "kid" that it would have playing in it would be Gilbert. And there is nothing at all wrong with that.

[meher baba]

How many of our first round draft picks from 2004-2006 have 'made the grade'?

The criticism of GT's tenure regarding this area has consistantly been that he:-
either wasted first round picks on topping up
allowed the wrong player(s) to be picked
didn't sufficielntly develop the youth once they were picked.

Therefore the argument that RL has failed to develop youth being proposed by some in this thread is IMHO a longjump to a conclusion that the proponent(s) of that view are trying to portray.

It is a massive deflection from the absolute fact that we have, for whatever reasons, failed to produce many positive results from the drafting/list management of the 2004-2006 period. The period where we weren't getting priority picks and very high draft picks

I assume you mean the 2003-05 period (GT was gone by the time of the 2006 draft picks).

There were five players - including two first round picks - drafted in this period playing on Saturday night: Raph, Chips, McQualter, Gwilt and Gilbert. Gram was also recruited to the club as a very young "recycled player" during this period. We only had one top ten draft pick in this period, and we used it on Raph.

There were no draftees from the 2006-08 period playing on Saturday night. In this period we had two top 10 draft picks.

On Saturday night we had two "top up" players recruited by Lyon trading away draft picks: Schneider and Ray (I don't count King, as we got him with a draft pick that neither we nor Geelong wanted).

The irony of this debate is that, despite his many failings, GT was actually an excellent developer of young talent: one of the best going around.

Lyon has also developed some younger players: Gilbert has improved and McQualter and Raph seemed to have gained a lot more confidence.

But, if you are one of those people who define building a team in terms of "talent spotting" rather than developing what you have, then I can't see that Lyon's record is any better than (or perhaps even as good as) that of GT.

Both of them have done good things with our list, as did Blight before them.

[Mr Magic]

MB,
How many of the 2003-2005 (yes I meant plaing in 2004-2006) draftees were getting regular games in their first 2 seasons at the Club?

Surely that is the only real comparison between the 2 periods.

I believe you cannot fairly compare Raph and Gilbert playing their 5-6th seasons to Armitage and McEvoy playing their 2-3rd seasons.

As for Chips, I classify him along the lines of an 'absolute steal' in terms of drafting, given his position in the draft. A wonderful and insightful pick by all those involved.

The truth is that IMO RL is being 'slammed' by some because neither Armo nor McEvoy are regular senior players yet.

And I don't believe that it is a fair basis to make any assumptions let alone statements about his ability to develop youth.

[WayneJudson42]

Wouldn't that mean that half the team is under 25?

Aren't you stats skewed by the fact that Lyon had to recruit ready made ruckmen because the previous philosophy was that rucks were not a priority? Gardiner and Clarke, and King all skew the average up.

Who apart from rucks has Lyon recycled that is over 24? cj was 23 i think, Schneider was 24, Ray, 22, Dawson 23, Begley 22 or 23, Dempster 24.

Are they too old? No good? How old was Andrew Thompson when recruited by the Saints?

Are you seriously suggesting that Allen, Armitage, Geary, Eddy, Heyne, Lynch, Steven, Smith, and McEvoy are not young prospects?

There is Nine kids 20 or under who should make seniors and play plenty of games for St.Kilda.

I think you are being a little bit disingenious to infer we dont have any young talent.

After Saturday night, who doesn't deserve their place in the seniors?

As you will see from my next post, I agree that we do have some young prospects, but none of them have delivered much yet.

Yes, it's true that half the team on Saturday night were 25 or under, but this group includes Dal, Gram, Ball, BJ, Raph, McQualter, Gilbert and Gwilt who were all at the club well before Lyon showed up.

As I keep saying, I don't have any problem with this. But if Lyon keeps selecting so many long-established players in his team (15 of the 22 selected on Saturday night played under GT and a further 5 were playing for other clubs when GT was still coaching), this surely suggests that - if there was anything much wrong with the way we went under GT (and views on this subject will of course differ) then it can't have been that we weren't recruiting and developing talent.

Why the need to turn this into a RL v GT thread?

How about we deal with the "here and now". GT has gone. People will be polarized in their opinions until they're 6 foot under.

I can understand that RF hates Lyon and has to find a negative to can him every week, but I'd expect better from you MB.

Do we really need this?

You weren't on the forum when some of the same posters that are now saying it is ok for Lyon to fill the team with "recycled players" droned on and on ad nauseum about how GT "lost his way" when he decided to try to "top up" with Brooks, Ackland, Guerra, McGough et al.

I'm not on about the past: I support most of Lyon's trade and rookie elevation decisions. I agree with jb that the draft picks of the past few years haven't really made a case for themselves to be selected in our top 22.

My only problem with what Lyon is doing now is it seems to me to be broadly similar to what GT was trying to do when he was, as I have been told ad nauseum, "ruining our list".

I personally think that there has been too much of a focus on our list in this forum. Some posters seem to be utterly obsessed with players that they have hardly (or never seen) or even that we haven't recruited yet (or whom would have been better than the ones we have if only we had had the insight denied to 15 other clubs and used our first round pick on a player who ended up being snapped up with pick 60 and then turned out to be a potential champion).

My view is that we had a relatively poor list at the end of 2000, but then were able to improve it steadily under Blight, GT and now Lyon to the point that - surprise, surprise - there now isn't much opportunity for youngsters to get a go in our top 22 when all our regulars are fit.

There is a chance that - at some stage this season - we might be able to field something like the following team (don't worry too much about where they are playing).

Bakes Max Gilbert
Raph Goose Chips
BJ Dal Gram
Joey Kosi Schneider
Milne Riewoldt X
Gardi Lenny Ball
Interchange: Blake Dempster McQualter Ray

Fully fit, and with Kosi, McQualter and Dal playing with the sort of form they showed on Saturday night, this team would IMO be potentially the best that we have put on the park since 1997 or so.

And the closest thing to a "kid" that it would have playing in it would be Gilbert. And there is nothing at all wrong with that.

A fair call. I was a follower when it was going on.

The reality is that GT can be judged with hindsight, but RL can't as yet.

That was my point. We're just opening up an old chestnut, mate.

Whilst it makes interesting fodder... should anyone really care?

The whole issue for me is that you have a core group from the 2000 draft onwards which can win a flag. To fully rebuild would be a waste IM, and they'll end up the next gen of Harvey Burke Loewe etc.

Honestly, Gardi was the biggest risk we took so far, and hopefully, this year will see it pay off. Charlie was part of the deal. M Clarke was only recruited after Hackland left as a back up only. And we didn't get BC.

Schneider, Dempster, Ray and Begley will play seniors... as will Dawson.

So why the urgent need to blood kids who aren't ready as yet?

Let them develop in time. If they are ahead and ready to play seniors... then give them a go.

It seems that people are baying for blood because we haven't had a Rioli or similar.

All I see apart from our rucks, is a recruitment of "fast tracked" players aroubd the 22 year stage.

Let's not forget how many kids we drafted this year. Time will tell.

[saintsRrising]

You weren't on the forum when some of the same posters that are now saying it is ok for Lyon to fill the team with "recycled players" droned on and on ad nauseum about how GT "lost his way" when he decided to try to "top up" with Brooks, Ackland, Guerra, McGough et al.

.

The complaint about GT's recruiting was that he grabbed too many recycled players that were not good enough...and the crticism of GT was not all ONLY about this issue. It was but one are of deficiency.


You have assess based on the overall and not just one player. Overall the GT pool of rejects gained little return bar Gram.

Take Guerra... aplyer who was known to have of-field issues...but who was not addressed in this regard. so much for the myth of GT being a great man-manager. Under GT it was only in the main those that were easy to mange that went on. Those with issues....normally went no-where. ie Guerra, Lawrence etc... Hall under GT vs Hall under Roos???

1/ The criticism of GT was not just about his list of recycled players post Waldron that he in the main wasted picks on... but rather it was just one of many areas that GT was under-performing in... including such things as:

* failing to evolve game-plan when the other better teams had worked how to combat our Brisbane -cloned gameplan

* failure to recognise what was necesary in fitness and conditioning management (this by itself probably cost us a flag)

etc etc..

2/ The Saints are despite all the moaning about lack of youth are actually doing a lot to address this at present.
* We have maximum rookies and maximum sized list.
* We have a very active NSW Scholarship program..
* In our drafting we have include bottom age kids who will take an extra year to show the fruit (ie Steven and Eljay)....and a young ruckman in McEvoy who was always going to be a player that would take a number of seasons before hopefully blooming...

3/ To not count King because we got him cheap??? What farce is this? He clearly would not have been taken under GT....and neither would Gardiner whom RL also gained cheap.

When RL arrived one of his first public statements was to address our ruck deficiency.

Look at what has occurred since. King and Gardiner secured to provide immediate answers... McEvoy for the future...and now several more so that when King and Gardiner fade away will will have new options coming through. Now not all the young rucks will make it..but we now have a good chance of having respectable ruck division for many a year.

4/ And lastly....gameplan and tactics.

Look at the swans game...the Swans were rampant in the first quarter BUT yet we stopped them dead...not one goal kicked by them in the second and third quarters.

Our ability to choke the opposition when they had he ball is what won us the game.




Under GT when team got a run on we were hopeless.....


How about we credit Saturday night to Lyon...it was the saints playing "his" way that won us the game.

[rodgerfox]

You weren't on the forum when some of the same posters that are now saying it is ok for Lyon to fill the team with "recycled players" droned on and on ad nauseum about how GT "lost his way" when he decided to try to "top up" with Brooks, Ackland, Guerra, McGough et al.

.

The complaint about GT's recruiting was that he grabbed too many recycled players that were not good enough...and the crticism of GT was not all ONLY about this issue. It was but one are of deficiency.


You have assess based on the overall and not just one player. Overall the GT pool of rejects gained little return bar Gram.

Take Guerra... aplyer who was known to have of-field issues...but who was not addressed in this regard. so much for the myth of GT being a great man-manager. Under GT it was only in the main those that were easy to mange that went on. Those with issues....normally went no-where. ie Guerra, Lawrence etc... Hall under GT vs Hall under Roos???

1/ The criticism of GT was not just about his list of recycled players post Waldron that he in the main wasted picks on... but rather it was just one of many areas that GT was under-performing in... including such things as:

* failing to evolve game-plan when the other better teams had worked how to combat our Brisbane -cloned gameplan

* failure to recognise what was necesary in fitness and conditioning management (this by itself probably cost us a flag)

etc etc..

2/ The Saints are despite all the moaning about lack of youth are actually doing a lot to address this at present.
* We have maximum rookies and maximum sized list.
* We have a very active NSW Scholarship program..
* In our drafting we have include bottom age kids who will take an extra year to show the fruit (ie Steven and Eljay)....and a young ruckman in McEvoy who was always going to be a player that would take a number of seasons before hopefully blooming...

3/ To not count King because we got him cheap??? What farce is this? He clearly would not have been taken under GT....and neither would Gardiner whom RL also gained cheap.

When RL arrived one of his first public statements was to address our ruck deficiency.

Look at what has occurred since. King and Gardiner secured to provide immediate answers... McEvoy for the future...and now several more so that when King and Gardiner fade away will will have new options coming through. Now not all the young rucks will make it..but we now have a good chance of having respectable ruck division for many a year.

4/ And lastly....gameplan and tactics.

Look at the swans game...the Swans were rampant in the first quarter BUT yet we stopped them dead...not one goal kicked by them in the second and third quarters.

Our ability to choke the opposition when they had he ball is what won us the game.




Under GT when team got a run on we were hopeless.....


How about we credit Saturday night to Lyon...it was the saints playing "his" way that won us the game.

I wonder if under GT that all these horrific flaws may have ben naturally addressed somewhat if Roo, Ball, Dal, Kosi, BJ, Fisher etc. etc. had an additional 2 years experience under their belts?

[saintsRrising]

I wonder if under GT that all these horrific flaws may have ben naturally addressed somewhat if Roo, Ball, Dal, Kosi, BJ, Fisher etc. etc. had an additional 2 years experience under their belts?

Based on GT's comments on player conditioning only last week....absolutely not.

[Moccha]

What is the Fox report?

Is this something I should read?

More informative than Sheahan?

[WayneJudson42]

You weren't on the forum when some of the same posters that are now saying it is ok for Lyon to fill the team with "recycled players" droned on and on ad nauseum about how GT "lost his way" when he decided to try to "top up" with Brooks, Ackland, Guerra, McGough et al.

.

The complaint about GT's recruiting was that he grabbed too many recycled players that were not good enough...and the crticism of GT was not all ONLY about this issue. It was but one are of deficiency.


You have assess based on the overall and not just one player. Overall the GT pool of rejects gained little return bar Gram.

Take Guerra... aplyer who was known to have of-field issues...but who was not addressed in this regard. so much for the myth of GT being a great man-manager. Under GT it was only in the main those that were easy to mange that went on. Those with issues....normally went no-where. ie Guerra, Lawrence etc... Hall under GT vs Hall under Roos???

1/ The criticism of GT was not just about his list of recycled players post Waldron that he in the main wasted picks on... but rather it was just one of many areas that GT was under-performing in... including such things as:

* failing to evolve game-plan when the other better teams had worked how to combat our Brisbane -cloned gameplan

* failure to recognise what was necesary in fitness and conditioning management (this by itself probably cost us a flag)

etc etc..

2/ The Saints are despite all the moaning about lack of youth are actually doing a lot to address this at present.
* We have maximum rookies and maximum sized list.
* We have a very active NSW Scholarship program..
* In our drafting we have include bottom age kids who will take an extra year to show the fruit (ie Steven and Eljay)....and a young ruckman in McEvoy who was always going to be a player that would take a number of seasons before hopefully blooming...

3/ To not count King because we got him cheap??? What farce is this? He clearly would not have been taken under GT....and neither would Gardiner whom RL also gained cheap.

When RL arrived one of his first public statements was to address our ruck deficiency.

Look at what has occurred since. King and Gardiner secured to provide immediate answers... McEvoy for the future...and now several more so that when King and Gardiner fade away will will have new options coming through. Now not all the young rucks will make it..but we now have a good chance of having respectable ruck division for many a year.

4/ And lastly....gameplan and tactics.

Look at the swans game...the Swans were rampant in the first quarter BUT yet we stopped them dead...not one goal kicked by them in the second and third quarters.

Our ability to choke the opposition when they had he ball is what won us the game.




Under GT when team got a run on we were hopeless.....


How about we credit Saturday night to Lyon...it was the saints playing "his" way that won us the game.

I wonder if under GT that all these horrific flaws may have ben naturally addressed somewhat if Roo, Ball, Dal, Kosi, BJ, Fisher etc. etc. had an additional 2 years experience under their belts?

What if??

What if??

Maybe they would have... X is farked... So was Raph for a fair bit... Kosi was farked and should never have played again after he got hit in the scone, until next season... Ball should not have played with OP.

GT's obsession with bringing back underdone players was one of the main reasons he never got a flag.

Hamill anyone?

Mate, the jury is back on GT. Gawn. Wasted his opportunity. Time to move on.

RL: Jury is still out. Simple. Give him the time GT had, then judge.

If not, go follow the rugby... Or another club that will "embrace" you

Lack of kids, pffft!

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

[saintsRrising]

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

Some don't.

ie MB says not to "count" getting King because we got him so cheap

Yet Brooks swapped for two low picks including a first rounder is held up as wise....

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

Some don't.

ie MB says not to "count" getting King because we got him so cheap

Yet Brooks swapped for two low picks including a first rounder is held up as wise....

i usually follow the gospel according to judson however i disagree

why should we wait 5 years approx to then judge rl based on a previous coach???

different list different strengths good and bad points other players have developed or 'come on' others have tapered away due to injury or simply poor form

why should we compare it all to what gt did???

do we compare it to gt because we went to consecutive prelim's without being able to play accountable football???

probably

[Shaggy]

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

Some don't.

ie MB says not to "count" getting King because we got him so cheap

Yet Brooks swapped for two low picks including a first rounder is held up as wise....

SS you are a major cause for the current angst.

According to you going for a FF in 2005 was nepotism. We had so many .

So where is our FF today?

Watts hasn't been able to play footy since he broke his ankle. It may well cost us a premiership this year but you cannot see it.

This is not about R as far as Saintsational goesL. This is about the BS you, Tef & B4E preached amonst your 1000's of posts being anti and blaming the past coach for not bringing you the flag ... as though some-how you know something they do not .

Our team is very ironic this week. How many newbies did we have from the last 3 years draft - GT wasn't there so you can't blame him. Players from other clubs should not count according to you ... they are top ups based on your GT vendetta.

And I believe in RL as does MB but RF who predicted right obviously still needs time.

You have been so wrong ... time to grow up.

[WayneJudson42]

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

Some don't.

ie MB says not to "count" getting King because we got him so cheap

Yet Brooks swapped for two low picks including a first rounder is held up as wise....

i usually follow the gospel according to judson however i disagree

why should we wait 5 years approx to then judge rl based on a previous coach???

different list different strengths good and bad points other players have developed or 'come on' others have tapered away due to injury or simply poor form

why should we compare it all to what gt did???

do we compare it to gt because we went to consecutive prelim's without being able to play accountable football???

probably

Bro, that's whole point... we shouldn't. Yet MB arked up and opened the can of worms. There were no comparisons until then.

Agree that RL should be judged on the "here and now".

But if people use GT as a yardstick, then they should allow RL the same time.

Let's move on.

To say that there's a lack of kids coming through is ludicrous IMO. How exactly do the Einsteins on here predict who'll become a player and who won't?

How do we compare this progress? Against whom?

Rioli, Judd, who exactly? These players are the exception, and not the norm.

I put it to people that certain clubs fast track kids because they realize that what they have, won't win them a flag. Not because they're challenging.

Hawks did a few years back. Essendon have got no choice, nor to Richmond... or Carlton for that matter. The only way was "up" for these clubs.

So they played the kids.

The way some people carry on... every single recruit should win the rising star in their first year... or they are deemed failures. That's what p1sses me off, no end.

Then we play them and they want them dropped after 1 game... where does it end?

The same people ranting on about kids should have also questioned the continuance of 35, and gone off at GT's comments to exit him out.

End of rant.

[meher baba]

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

Some don't.

ie MB says not to "count" getting King because we got him so cheap

Yet Brooks swapped for two low picks including a first rounder is held up as wise....

FWIW I meant that the draft pick we traded for King was so low that I wouldn't count it as having "given up" a draft pick for a trade. Of course I think it was a terrific trade: much better than poor old BB turned out to be (although -shoot me- I thought BB was a terrific pick up at the time).

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

Some don't.

ie MB says not to "count" getting King because we got him so cheap

Yet Brooks swapped for two low picks including a first rounder is held up as wise....

i usually follow the gospel according to judson however i disagree

why should we wait 5 years approx to then judge rl based on a previous coach???

different list different strengths good and bad points other players have developed or 'come on' others have tapered away due to injury or simply poor form

why should we compare it all to what gt did???

do we compare it to gt because we went to consecutive prelim's without being able to play accountable football???

probably

Bro, that's whole point... we shouldn't. Yet MB arked up and opened the can of worms. There were no comparisons until then.

Agree that RL should be judged on the "here and now".

But if people use GT as a yardstick, then they should allow RL the same time.

Let's move on.

oh right...i guess its natural to skip through a thread from rf lately and not pick up other points of view

[WayneJudson42]

Forget if GT's rejects are better than RL's... look at what GT gave up for them compared to RL. Get it?

Some don't.

ie MB says not to "count" getting King because we got him so cheap

Yet Brooks swapped for two low picks including a first rounder is held up as wise....

i usually follow the gospel according to judson however i disagree

why should we wait 5 years approx to then judge rl based on a previous coach???

different list different strengths good and bad points other players have developed or 'come on' others have tapered away due to injury or simply poor form

why should we compare it all to what gt did???

do we compare it to gt because we went to consecutive prelim's without being able to play accountable football???

probably

Bro, that's whole point... we shouldn't. Yet MB arked up and opened the can of worms. There were no comparisons until then.

Agree that RL should be judged on the "here and now".

But if people use GT as a yardstick, then they should allow RL the same time.

Let's move on.

oh right...i guess its natural to skip through a thread from rf lately and not pick up other points of view

Just edited my post... please re read it. Cheers.

[InkerSaint]

Can someone explain to me how you judge player development, outside of being an assistant coach or otherwise close to the action. I mean, how can you really tell if a player is being coached to his full potential or not?

About all that can be said about the list is that the oldest players who are running out of time are X and Leigh F., both 25. What that adds up to is the mature players are earning their keep, and there's plenty of young blood. That's the best position this team has been in in years.

[Beej]

Interesting point re Minle/Schneider. Might have been a differnt reaction had Milney shanked it lol.

Good on him tho. Too many of our forward thrusts were ruined by people trying to be too cute going inside 50. Noone wants mindless bombs all the time, but theres gotta be a time when you just think, "bugger it, I'll have a crack' Look at BJ in the 3rd. He hardly even kicked that ball and it went 1/2 post high from 50..would have landed in the Nth Melbourne rail yards if he'd really given it something.

Yep, still cant understand why Gram didnt take that shot from 35-40 on the run... blew my mind actually

His previous shot at goal was when he side-stepped the entire Sydney defense and blazed away. After watching the replay you can see Roo giving him a bit of a spray for not lowering his eyes.

Gram thought twice about having another shot, obviously.

[Teflon]

Lyon's been at the club for a while now, and we're not seeing any evidence of his ability to tutor young players and develop them.

Gold.

Lyons been here 2 years and 1 game.

I guess if you have assessed the coach after 3 mths...well then ......2 years is an eternity...what the hell is wrong with Lyon - why isnt McEvoy challenging Dean Cox?

Your dislike of Lyon is sadly desperate.

Clown of the highest....

[Shaggy]

Lyon's been at the club for a while now, and we're not seeing any evidence of his ability to tutor young players and develop them.

Gold.

Lyons been here 2 years and 1 game.

I guess if you have assessed the coach after 3 mths...well then ......2 years is an eternity...what the hell is wrong with Lyon - why isnt McEvoy challenging Dean Cox?

Your dislike of Lyon is sadly desperate.

Clown of the highest....

In case you didn't see it RF wrote in the original post:

Round 1 down. For the 3rd time in as many years, we had a win.

Fair to say that based on our previous 3 years, we can't really look too much into what happens in Round 1. Fair to say that based on the past 100 years of AFL/VFL we can't really look that much into Round 1 full stop.

However, a few things stood out to me.

The Good Things...

- We won without Riewoldt having an influence.
- Dawson's hip & shoulder on Hall.
- Dawson full stop.
- We came back after looking down and out.
- We were pretty fierce, against a team renowned for this.
- We only conceded 65 points.
- Didn't really have a 'star', but moreso many conntributors.
- Joey is an adult now. He now knows this too.
- Kosi had an influence.
- Gardiner did Ok and his attitude was great.
- We won with injuries.
- Luke Ball was good.
- Dal broke a tag.
- Our good players were good.


The Bad Things....

- We only kicked 80 points after dominating the majority of the game.
- We suffered soft-tissue injuries again.
- We started horribly.
- We showed again that the difference between our good and our bad is vast.
- Played a style of footy that is unproven.
- We haven't 'mastered' our style of play. However we've vastly improved our cohesion if the 2nd & 3rd quarters are anything to go by.
- Lyon still hasn't introduced any new talent.

Crucial Moments...

In the 2nd quarter, Milne ran onto a loose ball, looked up and snapped across his body and bounced it through for a goal.
When he looked up, he saw Schneider completely on his own about 10m away - the ball should have gone to him.
Schneider called for it, only to see the ball be kicked over his head by Milne, and go through for a goal.
He didn't crack the shiits like 90% of AFL footballers would have. Instead he pumped his fists in celebration of a goal for the team.
I was surprised, and really pleased by it. It showed that Schneider wants the team to win more than him getting an easy goal next t ohis name i the Footy Record.


The other crucial moment was the shirtfront Dawson put on Hall. 98% of the comp are genuinely scared of Hall. Dawson, a rookie who's had his ego and self-confidence mauled over the past couple of years is part of the 2% that isn't scared of him.

Seeing that, must have made the rest of the side walk taller.

Rather than snipping at RF you may wish to add to the game comments

[Teflon]

Lyon's been at the club for a while now, and we're not seeing any evidence of his ability to tutor young players and develop them.

Gold.

Lyons been here 2 years and 1 game.

I guess if you have assessed the coach after 3 mths...well then ......2 years is an eternity...what the hell is wrong with Lyon - why isnt McEvoy challenging Dean Cox?

Your dislike of Lyon is sadly desperate.

Clown of the highest....

In case you didn't see it RF wrote in the original post:

Round 1 down. For the 3rd time in as many years, we had a win.

Fair to say that based on our previous 3 years, we can't really look too much into what happens in Round 1. Fair to say that based on the past 100 years of AFL/VFL we can't really look that much into Round 1 full stop.

However, a few things stood out to me.

The Good Things...

- We won without Riewoldt having an influence.
- Dawson's hip & shoulder on Hall.
- Dawson full stop.
- We came back after looking down and out.
- We were pretty fierce, against a team renowned for this.
- We only conceded 65 points.
- Didn't really have a 'star', but moreso many conntributors.
- Joey is an adult now. He now knows this too.
- Kosi had an influence.
- Gardiner did Ok and his attitude was great.
- We won with injuries.
- Luke Ball was good.
- Dal broke a tag.
- Our good players were good.


The Bad Things....

- We only kicked 80 points after dominating the majority of the game.
- We suffered soft-tissue injuries again.
- We started horribly.
- We showed again that the difference between our good and our bad is vast.
- Played a style of footy that is unproven.
- We haven't 'mastered' our style of play. However we've vastly improved our cohesion if the 2nd & 3rd quarters are anything to go by.
- Lyon still hasn't introduced any new talent.

Crucial Moments...

In the 2nd quarter, Milne ran onto a loose ball, looked up and snapped across his body and bounced it through for a goal.
When he looked up, he saw Schneider completely on his own about 10m away - the ball should have gone to him.
Schneider called for it, only to see the ball be kicked over his head by Milne, and go through for a goal.
He didn't crack the shiits like 90% of AFL footballers would have. Instead he pumped his fists in celebration of a goal for the team.
I was surprised, and really pleased by it. It showed that Schneider wants the team to win more than him getting an easy goal next t ohis name i the Footy Record.


The other crucial moment was the shirtfront Dawson put on Hall. 98% of the comp are genuinely scared of Hall. Dawson, a rookie who's had his ego and self-confidence mauled over the past couple of years is part of the 2% that isn't scared of him.

Seeing that, must have made the rest of the side walk taller.

Rather than snipping at RF you may wish to add to the game comments

can you cut and paste also AND fit in time for stalking?

your a gun man!

[Shaggy]

Lyon's been at the club for a while now, and we're not seeing any evidence of his ability to tutor young players and develop them.

Gold.

Lyons been here 2 years and 1 game.

I guess if you have assessed the coach after 3 mths...well then ......2 years is an eternity...what the hell is wrong with Lyon - why isnt McEvoy challenging Dean Cox?

Your dislike of Lyon is sadly desperate.

Clown of the highest....

In case you didn't see it RF wrote in the original post:

Round 1 down. For the 3rd time in as many years, we had a win.

Fair to say that based on our previous 3 years, we can't really look too much into what happens in Round 1. Fair to say that based on the past 100 years of AFL/VFL we can't really look that much into Round 1 full stop.

However, a few things stood out to me.

The Good Things...

- We won without Riewoldt having an influence.
- Dawson's hip & shoulder on Hall.
- Dawson full stop.
- We came back after looking down and out.
- We were pretty fierce, against a team renowned for this.
- We only conceded 65 points.
- Didn't really have a 'star', but moreso many conntributors.
- Joey is an adult now. He now knows this too.
- Kosi had an influence.
- Gardiner did Ok and his attitude was great.
- We won with injuries.
- Luke Ball was good.
- Dal broke a tag.
- Our good players were good.


The Bad Things....

- We only kicked 80 points after dominating the majority of the game.
- We suffered soft-tissue injuries again.
- We started horribly.
- We showed again that the difference between our good and our bad is vast.
- Played a style of footy that is unproven.
- We haven't 'mastered' our style of play. However we've vastly improved our cohesion if the 2nd & 3rd quarters are anything to go by.
- Lyon still hasn't introduced any new talent.

Crucial Moments...

In the 2nd quarter, Milne ran onto a loose ball, looked up and snapped across his body and bounced it through for a goal.
When he looked up, he saw Schneider completely on his own about 10m away - the ball should have gone to him.
Schneider called for it, only to see the ball be kicked over his head by Milne, and go through for a goal.
He didn't crack the shiits like 90% of AFL footballers would have. Instead he pumped his fists in celebration of a goal for the team.
I was surprised, and really pleased by it. It showed that Schneider wants the team to win more than him getting an easy goal next t ohis name i the Footy Record.


The other crucial moment was the shirtfront Dawson put on Hall. 98% of the comp are genuinely scared of Hall. Dawson, a rookie who's had his ego and self-confidence mauled over the past couple of years is part of the 2% that isn't scared of him.

Seeing that, must have made the rest of the side walk taller.

Rather than snipping at RF you may wish to add to the game comments

can you cut and paste also AND fit in time for stalking?

your a gun man!

Stalking the stalker is fun

[Teflon]

You weren't on the forum when some of the same posters that are now saying it is ok for Lyon to fill the team with "recycled players" droned on and on ad nauseum about how GT "lost his way" when he decided to try to "top up" with Brooks, Ackland, Guerra, McGough et al.

.

The complaint about GT's recruiting was that he grabbed too many recycled players that were not good enough...and the crticism of GT was not all ONLY about this issue. It was but one are of deficiency.


You have assess based on the overall and not just one player. Overall the GT pool of rejects gained little return bar Gram.

Take Guerra... aplyer who was known to have of-field issues...but who was not addressed in this regard. so much for the myth of GT being a great man-manager. Under GT it was only in the main those that were easy to mange that went on. Those with issues....normally went no-where. ie Guerra, Lawrence etc... Hall under GT vs Hall under Roos???

1/ The criticism of GT was not just about his list of recycled players post Waldron that he in the main wasted picks on... but rather it was just one of many areas that GT was under-performing in... including such things as:

* failing to evolve game-plan when the other better teams had worked how to combat our Brisbane -cloned gameplan

* failure to recognise what was necesary in fitness and conditioning management (this by itself probably cost us a flag)

etc etc..

2/ The Saints are despite all the moaning about lack of youth are actually doing a lot to address this at present.
* We have maximum rookies and maximum sized list.
* We have a very active NSW Scholarship program..
* In our drafting we have include bottom age kids who will take an extra year to show the fruit (ie Steven and Eljay)....and a young ruckman in McEvoy who was always going to be a player that would take a number of seasons before hopefully blooming...

3/ To not count King because we got him cheap??? What farce is this? He clearly would not have been taken under GT....and neither would Gardiner whom RL also gained cheap.

When RL arrived one of his first public statements was to address our ruck deficiency.

Look at what has occurred since. King and Gardiner secured to provide immediate answers... McEvoy for the future...and now several more so that when King and Gardiner fade away will will have new options coming through. Now not all the young rucks will make it..but we now have a good chance of having respectable ruck division for many a year.

4/ And lastly....gameplan and tactics.

Look at the swans game...the Swans were rampant in the first quarter BUT yet we stopped them dead...not one goal kicked by them in the second and third quarters.

Our ability to choke the opposition when they had he ball is what won us the game.




Under GT when team got a run on we were hopeless.....


How about we credit Saturday night to Lyon...it was the saints playing "his" way that won us the game.

what a great post.

clowns wont read it.
and I love the Dodgy response....

"oh yeah but these guys have more experience under Lyon..."

we're getting desperate nowadays..

[PJ]

Is this a thread or a drive by shooting

There was a good deal more significance in the game for me.

1/Gardiner completely changes St.Kilda

2/Mini has matured - considerably

3/Nick Dal Santo's game was not only inspirational but demonstrated a new level of play for him

4/Kosi let roam is close to the most dangerous big man in the comp - not in the ruck, playing loose in defence and moving up the ground.

5/St.Kilda can be a far more even TEAM when not relying on Roo. Teams will struggle to break St.Kilda down if the forward options are less obvious.

Personally I couldn't give a stuff who recruited who - in fact the coaches don't choose - they have preferences.

If you follow St.Kilda FC you should appreciate all who have given to the club. I don't have favourite players or coaches - love em all.

GO SAINTS