The difference: No passengers on the bus

[evertonfc]

NO RIEWOLDT, no St Kilda? No joke. Certainly in 2008, anyway. When he played well, by and large, we won. When he was held - see two of the three finals - we lost. Our fortunes largely rested on how many marks he took and how many goals he kicked.

So far in 2009, Riewoldt has not shone. He is struggling with his kicking, but at least his work rate remains. And he remains an elite player, but he is not the barometer. Thank goodness for that.

I attribute this to the fact that, for the first time in Ross Lyon's coaching career, there are no passengers on the bus.

In previous years, it's been a case of looking for contributors. This year, so far at least, it's been a case of finding those who aren't contributing. And they are thin on the ground. In fact, they are almost impossible to find.

Even those who are not dominating matches are still having a profound impact. Luke Ball and Steven Baker had just 24 touches between them, but gave their best all day and added their body to as many contests as possible. Adam Schneider had only eight touches, but only two more players had higher tackles counts (especially valuble in his position).

This has been my major criticism of the team in recent years. However, I think the message is sinking through. 22 players must mean 22 individual contributors. However big, however small, everyone has to have a dip.

And in many cases we are taking players who ordinarily sat on the fringes to becoming four-quarter contributors. In particular, can I mention:

- Sam Gilbert. Long overrated by this forum, he is now worthy of your praise and accolades. We knew he had talent, but he had to work for it. I think he's done exactly that in the off-season; the threat of moving forward has certainly cajoled him into action and it's a pleasure to see him emerge as a very good player. It is his presence [moreso than Farren Ray, who is playing midfield] that is freeing up Sam Fisher and Jason Gram.

- Farren Ray. An extra pair of legs and a great work ethic. He gives our first-choice midfielders a breather and ensures we don't lose too much in the rotations. Great to see him using his hands more than his feet. In time, he'll get the confidence to kick more but let him handball as much as he likes, particuarly in this era of footy. Hasn't been so much a sweeper as a genuine midfielder - good on him.

- Zac Dawson. A tremendous get. Our recruiters can't have thought he had this much about him or they'd have taken him in the national draft - and Hawthorn wouldn't have let him go. Indeed, whilst I was very happy we took him, I was surprised we went so early in the rookie raft when I thought nobody would take him. But even at 13, he has proved his worth. These are early days, but he has more than shown himself as a capable defender. May even improve when Max returns. Liked him from R1 NAB vs Brisbane (others didn't for some reason) and delighted to see him kick on. At the very least, he provides an extra defensive option and at best, he could be a long-term player. Well done Zac.

- Jason Blake. Yes, I know he's improved in recent years but now he looks, well, accomplished. Who'd have thought? Durable as a cockroach, this bloke keeps giving but - and this is the key point - he has improved as a footballer. No longer just a 'trier'...he can take a grab, his spoiling has improved, his kicking is better.

- Clinton Jones. I've been a big critic and I don't think I'd ever talk up anyone who let their opponant have 27 touches in man-on-man tagging, but he did a great job on Kerr early and when Kerr got into the game, CJ played him close and limited his 'damage'.

**But the key thing about CJ? We have found him a position. Finally. As a midfielder, eesh, he's on the fringes. But now he can negate. You know what he is? Jayden Attard with ball-winning ability. And many rated Attard...save for the fact he couldn't find it. Well, I'm willing to punt that CJ can negate nearly as well whilst getting his hands on it too. That's what you want from a tagger. I think this is his position and it could save his career. And guess what - when CJ knew he was doing a job on Kerr, his confidence went up and he started hitting more targets. Great to see.

- James Gwilt. I'd ordained him as the player to make way for X Clarke (and if truth be told, I still do). BUT that is the whole point of squad depth. It's not about saying Gwilt is a bad player, but we are developing a strong squad, not just a best 22. He's just had 27 touches and played as well as he's ever played. But as well as X might be going in the VFL, how can you dump a bloke who's just had a career-high? You can't. That's called every player fighting for their position. To play for St Kilda's best 22 right now is a privledge, not a right. Gwilt has realised how lucky he is - and has realised he wants to be a part of it. He got involved this week after an iffy game in R1 and a reasonable game in R2. This week, he looked like he wanted to be a part of it. Will it last? Hopefully - because he's got X on his back for now, and then Sean Dempster later in the year, too. His challenge is to keep them out.

Other mentions:
King & Gardiner - Nullified Cox despite losing the hitouts. Competitive to the end. Gardiner is playing superbly, but don't overlook King (despite his silly shoulder punch).

Kosi - Enough has been written and said about him. Every word of it true. Can I add his pack-crashing is generating 2-3 goals per week - priceless.

BJ - An elite footballer. Nothing less. On form, he's in the best five players in the comp.

And finally - thanks for hanging this far in, folks - well done to Ross Lyon.

It's clear he's realised that the uber-defensive style of 2007-8 not only is boring to watch, but it won't win a premiership. Footy changes quickly, and what worked in 2005 had been deemed outdated by 2007. It's just a fact.

He is coaching more intelligently, as evidenced by the fact that when our players get the ball, they move it quickly, especially into the forward 50. It's making us attacking and it's giving us confidence. And it's rattling the opposition.

So well done Saints. Well done Ross. It's been a great opening three weeks. The platform is there for us to make week in, week out efforts.

If the pressure, intensity and belief stays as high as it has been, there's no reason we can't have a very good season.

[joffaboy]

Great post - would like to offer some thoughts on your main points if I may

NO RIEWOLDT, no St Kilda? No joke. Certainly in 2008, anyway. When he played well, by and large, we won. When he was held - see two of the three finals - we lost. Our fortunes largely rested on how many marks he took and how many goals he kicked.

So far in 2009, Riewoldt has not shone. He is struggling with his kicking, but at least his work rate remains. And he remains an elite player, but he is not the barometer. Thank goodness for that.

I attribute this to the fact that, for the first time in Ross Lyon's coaching career, there are no passengers on the bus.

Yes indeed. When I look at a Geelong over the past three years - I have seen the GFC not a bunch of stars. I know that have players like Ablett and Bartel however they are so even and uindelfish that you just see an even hard at it team.

We are looking to emulate this and so far in 2009 seem to be able to do so

- Sam Gilbert. Long overrated by this forum, he is now worthy of your praise and accolades. We knew he had talent, but he had to work for it. I think he's done exactly that in the off-season; the threat of moving forward has certainly cajoled him into action and it's a pleasure to see him emerge as a very good player. It is his presence [moreso than Farren Ray, who is playing midfield] that is freeing up Sam Fisher and Jason Gram.

Dont know about "overrated" everton. He has been rated by the forum and he is now showing why. Sorry to nitpick. Seems to have bulked up and shakes off tackles and is so clean with disposal. Really an asset in the backline.

- Farren Ray. An extra pair of legs and a great work ethic. He gives our first-choice midfielders a breather and ensures we don't lose too much in the rotations. Great to see him using his hands more than his feet. In time, he'll get the confidence to kick more but let him handball as much as he likes, particuarly in this era of footy. Hasn't been so much a sweeper as a genuine midfielder - good on him.

Biggest problem with Farren at the Dogs was his decision making under pressure. Off a HBF he has more time - and this extra second is invaluable to someone who can hit targets and use his speed to break lines. Once he gets more confidence doing this - the decision making under pressure will surely improve. A really good acquisition - so far.

- Zac Dawson. A tremendous get. Our recruiters can't have thought he had this much about him or they'd have taken him in the national draft - and Hawthorn wouldn't have let him go. Indeed, whilst I was very happy we took him, I was surprised we went so early in the rookie raft when I thought nobody would take him. But even at 13, he has proved his worth. These are early days, but he has more than shown himself as a capable defender. May even improve when Max returns. Liked him from R1 NAB vs Brisbane (others didn't for some reason) and delighted to see him kick on. At the very least, he provides an extra defensive option and at best, he could be a long-term player. Well done Zac.

Have to agree with all of the above. Will be interesting when the team is getting beaten in the mids to see how he fares. He looks good ATM because the delivery is ordinary due to midfield pressure. Nothing wrong with that - thats what the mids are supposed to do. I think Zac was hung out to dry on a performance against Rocca when his mids at the Hawks got flogged.Any FB will struggle one on one when the ball is coming in quickly.
Cannot fault Zac and it is a extremely pleasant suprise. Wonder how Carroll would have fared???

- Jason Blake. Yes, I know he's improved in recent years but now he looks, well, accomplished. Who'd have thought? Durable as a cockroach, this bloke keeps giving but - and this is the key point - he has improved as a footballer. No longer just a 'trier'...he can take a grab, his spoiling has improved, his kicking is better.

I have never doubte this consumate "team"man. Has done every job asked of him by about 5 coaches. He has been on our list 10 years - a great effort for someone who is no superstar. Has gotten ever ounce out of his ability and continues to get a gig in the starting 22.

I also think that he has more endurance because he is not getting battered in the ruck. Jason Blake is the great survivor of the Saints and all powere to him.

- Clinton Jones. I've been a big critic and I don't think I'd ever talk up anyone who let their opponant have 27 touches in man-on-man tagging, but he did a great job on Kerr early and when Kerr got into the game, CJ played him close and limited his 'damage'.

**But the key thing about CJ? We have found him a position. Finally. As a midfielder, eesh, he's on the fringes. But now he can negate. You know what he is? Jayden Attard with ball-winning ability. And many rated Attard...save for the fact he couldn't find it. Well, I'm willing to punt that CJ can negate nearly as well whilst getting his hands on it too. That's what you want from a tagger. I think this is his position and it could save his career. And guess what - when CJ knew he was doing a job on Kerr, his confidence went up and he started hitting more targets. Great to see.

Blonde hair belies his toughness at and eyes only for the ball. You are completely correct. A perfect tagger who gets his own ball - in the Jude Bolton mould.

Also frees up Steven Baker out of a purely tagging role. Both can still pinch hit in the midfield and rotate through if necessary - just more flexability that is so difficult to match up on.

- James Gwilt. I'd ordained him as the player to make way for X Clarke (and if truth be told, I still do). BUT that is the whole point of squad depth. It's not about saying Gwilt is a bad player, but we are developing a strong squad, not just a best 22. He's just had 27 touches and played as well as he's ever played. But as well as X might be going in the VFL, how can you dump a bloke who's just had a career-high? You can't. That's called every player fighting for their position. To play for St Kilda's best 22 right now is a privledge, not a right. Gwilt has realised how lucky he is - and has realised he wants to be a part of it. He got involved this week after an iffy game in R1 and a reasonable game in R2. This week, he looked like he wanted to be a part of it. Will it last? Hopefully - because he's got X on his back for now, and then Sean Dempster later in the year, too. His challenge is to keep them out.

Very good points - Grant Thomas made the point last year that Gwilt didn't have the development of the junior rep leagues and would be a late developer and worth persisting with - that was last year.

Glad we have. I tend to agree with you that he should make way for X - but does he deserved to be dropped? NO.

What a great position to finally be in. Having to consider leaving the Clarkes and Max and Goose in the twos. Never imagined it.

Other mentions:
King & Gardiner - Nullified Cox despite losing the hitouts. Competitive to the end. Gardiner is playing superbly, but don't overlook King (despite his silly shoulder punch).

Work well as a team - opposition rucks dont get a break and both are bobbing up for a goal or two when resting forward.

Also gives young McEvoy the time to develop in the twos and come along at a nice pace for a big guy.

Kosi - Enough has been written and said about him. Every word of it true. Can I add his pack-crashing is generating 2-3 goals per week - priceless.

If the big guy gets rubbed out - I'll spew - at him. What a dumb thing to do FFS. The guy need continuity of football and taken out - even for a week - him form suffers. Still is giving the opposition headaches ion the air and crashing packs - allowing Roo to run riot up field and still collect and uses 25 possessions

BJ - An elite footballer. Nothing less. On form, he's in the best five players in the comp.

Carlton folk are gritting their teeth and mumbling "Kouta" under they breath

And finally - thanks for hanging this far in, folks - well done to Ross Lyon.

It's clear he's realised that the uber-defensive style of 2007-8 not only is boring to watch, but it won't win a premiership. Footy changes quickly, and what worked in 2005 had been deemed outdated by 2007. It's just a fact.

Do you think it is that or a natural progression? I must admit that after last season of boredom and the praccy matches - I didn't have any enthusiasm at all for this season. Well I haven't been as impressed with the STKFC game since 2004.

It also helps all our big guns have had a full preseason and are up and about - including Ball and Kosi. bj a year after a knee - Roo working back into form. All good.

He is coaching more intelligently, as evidenced by the fact that when our players get the ball, they move it quickly, especially into the forward 50. It's making us attacking and it's giving us confidence. And it's rattling the opposition.

Yes it is a high energy - play on at all costs - type of game. Comes undone occasionally but on the whole itr is paying dividends - big time.

So well done Saints. Well done Ross. It's been a great opening three weeks. The platform is there for us to make week in, week out efforts.

If the pressure, intensity and belief stays as high as it has been, there's no reason we can't have a very good season.

Yes - only three rounds in - but looking good.

Excellent post everton. Hope my comments were constructive.

[saint66au]

Great discussion guys

Can I just add that its great that rumours of footy's demise seem to be greatly exaggerated? I watched 3 complete games over the weekend (ours live and Carl/Ess and Nth/Haw on TV) and whilst ours was a blowout all 3 were great spectacles and featured very little "keepings off" or the kind of footy that many were predicting as the end of the game as we know it pre-season

[maverick]

Great reads guys, thanks.

BJ excites me more than any other Sainter since Nicky W left us. He is far more dangerous forward of the ball and is as good a kick for goal as I have seen. When he gets the ball good things happen.

A word on RL.
I have been a critic, maybe partly because I thought GT was unfairly sacked and maybe because I so badly wanted Harvs to get a premiership, either way '07 and the first half of '08 were very bad.

Obviously now with time, fitness and some shrewd recruiting RL has built a team capable of winning strong contested footy. Yes the players are playing good footy, but the middle two quarters against the Swans and the win in Adelaide are some of RL's finest work. All kudos to the panel.

The best players are playing in their best positions and he is holding faith in depth players like Blake and Dawson instead of sacrificing BJ and Sammy F whilst Max and Goose are out of the team.

The premiership is there for the taking this year IMO, maybe just maybe we might have our timing right for once.

Fitness and injury remain the key, here's hoping for some luck for once..

[matrix]

cant say i disagree with any of evertonfcs comments.


(blakey...ya gotta love him)

[Iceman234]

What evertonfc and joffaboy both said

Great posts

[saintly_safes]

Good post. I am really amazed at what the team has achieved so far. I have stated on this forum that we couldnt be a premiership threat with our list & game plan . Excuse my ignorance but where has the new found attacking game & selfless team disapline come from?It reminds me of 1997 when we played with a flair & passion for 4 quarters that other teams couldnt maintain the same intensity hence we finished top of the ladder ( should have won the flag ). I do appologise for doubting the list but why have we been playing the negative selfish game for the last few years? The team is not much different on paper but I really like what I'm seeing on the park where it really counts I just hope they can keep it up .Go saints

[Teflon]

And finally - thanks for hanging this far in, folks - well done to Ross Lyon.

It's clear he's realised that the uber-defensive style of 2007-8 not only is boring to watch, but it won't win a premiership. Footy changes quickly, and what worked in 2005 had been deemed outdated by 2007. It's just a fact.

He is coaching more intelligently, as evidenced by the fact that when our players get the ball, they move it quickly, especially into the forward 50. It's making us attacking and it's giving us confidence. And it's rattling the opposition.

I have to disagree here entirely.

Sure Lyon himself admitted he made changes to the game plan ("tweaking it" were the words I think he used) but to intimate Lyons somehow gone "borne -again" regarding game plan and made wholesale changes is wrong and a slap in the face to the coach IMHO - to suggest he tried to simply implement a 2005 game plan (read Sydney game plan) is even more delusional and an insult.

Sure game plans change, footy changes - so what?

We talk about facts and neatly ignore some key ones....

1. FACT: Ross Lyon AND players have constantly refuted any suggestion we are merely trying to implement the circa 2005 Sydney game plan.

2. FACT: Lyon has ALWAYS stated categorically slow ball movement is NOT part of his instructions to the players - hes always wanted the ball movement faster....

Why do people simply continue to disbelieve the bloke? FFS hes told you how many times?

I do agree Lyon is coaching better - why?....nothing startling hes had:

TIME in the caper now, time to change the list (that many on here - Saints43- constantly told us was as good as 04/05) to a squad that CAN play his style.
TIME to allow his fitness and conditioning programs work.
TIME for the playing group to LEARN the way he wants them to play and TIME for the coaching panel/playing group to develop the necessary chemistry that success demands.

And youd have to say hes now got it right in the assistant coaching roles - again by his own admission Leigh Tudor is simply getting the forward pressure "job done" - shock horror......we NOW apply fwd pressure.......

I believe the fundamentals of what Lyon wanted in 07 are still there in 09 - the pressure, tackling, ruckman - even the flood is still there when needed...(I recall watching one of his early games when we demolished Melbourne with pressure and David Parkin commenting that hes never seen a St Kilda side apply that much pressure - fast forward to 09 and its no surprise to hear this from Craig, Wosrfod an Co). So whats happened between then and now? IMHO both coach/players are starting to work as a team, players understand what it is Lyon wants and they (hopefully after more good results) will be full of confidence that this IS the way to play Premiership football - built on tough, aggresive defensive pressure. That has ALWAYS been Lyon to me, it hasnt changed magically since 2007 (FFS we got 10 goals from pressure turn overs after the weekend....).

We are now simply getting better at it with players fit enough and mentally capable enough to implement CONSISTENTLY. The best sides of years gone by do this routinely. FINALLY someone is making St Kilda workmanlike, clinical, non-dependent on the "single superstars" and its refreshing.

Is Lyon coaching more "intelligently"...who knows........I do know hes coaching with more experience....if that makes him smarter ..its all good (Ive met some dumb people flagging their "experience btw..).

By all means I agree that Lyon has tweaked how we play - it makes sense as footy does change and he will (as a good coach CAN do) constantly adapt. Its NOT this which is magically making us play the way we are now - thats simplistic.

Its rd 3....I just hope it continues and we have the stamina.

[Beej]

everton, great post, but I have to agree with Teflon on that point.

I don't feel Lyon has suddenly decided to throw his philosophy out the window and start afresh. He's always maintained that he has a clear idea of how he wants his side to play.

IMO it's the simple matter of the players executing the game-plan more effectively. We're playing with an enormous amount of confidence, self-belief and discipline in the knowledge that if we stick to the plan, we'll win games of footy.

Everyone at the club has bought into what Lyon has been preaching for two years and we're now bearing the fruits.

Rome, like Sydney, West Coast, Geelong and Hawthorn, wasn't built in a day.

[Sam23]

Agree that Ross Lyon has not changed his game plan.

Has always told us that he believed that he thought that with a good defensive plan that was well implemented the Offensive stuff would flow. As was seen the last half of last year and going into this year.

[ace]

There should be heaps of passengers on the bus to see St Kilda wipe out Fremantle this next weekend.

[Cairnsman]

Ahh the rusty old bus. I wondered where the ole girl was. Last I saw she was in the workshop getting some work done but great to now see her enroute again. The first few stops have been great and what ever the mechanic has done it's certainly looks like she could make the journey.

[plugger66]

Of course the game plan has changed and if it hadnt we wouldnt be 3 nil. Footy in the last year or so is different to 3 years ago so you have to change. We played a pretty much man on man game plus when we had to, heaps of flooding in the first 2 years and let opposition players get free ball until the wing. Now we put defensive pressure on them in the forward line and play a zone.

It has changed a fair bit and if he hadnt he would be regarded as a poor coach. As he has our game to plan to suit the footy played at the moment he should be regarded as coaching very well.

[starsign]

Great reading from some excellent posts!
A couple of snippets caught my attention….

Cannot fault Zac and it is a extremely pleasant suprise. Wonder how Carroll would have fared???

Yes I think we took the right turn there Joffa, at the very least he should have a longer future!

the threat of moving forward has certainly cajoled him into action

Interesting insight on Gilbo there Everton! Merely your spin?

Saintly_safes:

Excuse my ignorance but where has the new found attacking game & selfless team disapline come from?

$64 dollar question! How did Geelong suddenly turn it all around with pretty much the same list no more?
Which brings me to an observation/comparison in relation to the above comments on RLs performance by a few posters…
The physical maturation of our list generally across the board over his tenure has to come into the equation after witnessing the manner in which we have gone about these 3 wins. Each of our opponents so far have had a greater number of younger bodies out on the park, and over 4 quarters of the stuff we’ve been dishing up its got to tell!
And as a side issue on the current Gwilt discussions, his physical attributes in and around the packs can’t be discounted by those advocating immediately dropping him for one of the younger up-coming brigade either. At present he seem to fit RLs plan and working well

Our major tests will come when we meet up with the physically mature comparable likes of Geelong and the Hawks strongest side cerca 2008
And also to see if this current form and style of play is enough to overcome the pace and skill of the Dogs at there best

Anyway it's all good , lets sit back and enjoy the ride on whatever the bus we deserve it!

[maverick]

Of course the game plan has changed and if it hadnt we wouldnt be 3 nil. Footy in the last year or so is different to 3 years ago so you have to change. We played a pretty much man on man game plus when we had to, heaps of flooding in the first 2 years and let opposition players get free ball until the wing. Now we put defensive pressure on them in the forward line and play a zone.

It has changed a fair bit and if he hadnt he would be regarded as a poor coach. As he has our game to plan to suit the footy played at the moment he should be regarded as coaching very well.

Agree 100%

[remboy]

It's amazing what can happen when there's 22 contributors. I've always thought that it's not your best 6 that determines your fate it's the bottom 6. We know that Roo and BJ and Lenny will play well every game but it's the contribution you get from the bottom 6 that will decide how we go over the course of the year. If we can keep doing what we're doing who knows what will happen?

[matrix]

um the game plan hasnt changed much imo
its just the players are now responding and finally working out what was wanted all along.
as if there would be a game plan thats exactly the same for every game every week.
it has to adapt and be evolved every game depending on who ya playing.
obviously there would be a 'basic plan/template' but all good coaches need to be able to adapt and change on a weekly basis.

shesh dont turn this into another 4million page thread on friggin game plan again like last season

[bigcarl]

Of course the game plan has changed and if it hadnt we wouldnt be 3 nil. Footy in the last year or so is different to 3 years ago so you have to change. We played a pretty much man on man game plus when we had to, heaps of flooding in the first 2 years and let opposition players get free ball until the wing. Now we put defensive pressure on them in the forward line and play a zone.

It has changed a fair bit and if he hadnt he would be regarded as a poor coach. As he has our game to plan to suit the footy played at the moment he should be regarded as coaching very well.

agree with this post.