No More Gwilt, Please!

[borderbarry]

I can see that there are a lot of posters who dont want Jimmy Gwilt dropped, but with Stephen King, Raph Clarke and Max Hudgton to come back into the team a few players will have to make way for them. I suggest Jim will be one of them.

[bigcarl]

then complaining about our team mainly kicking the ball to him would be as silly as complaining that the Hawks kicked it to Roughead too often on Saturday

they went to roughhead because buddy was copping an absolute towelling. that is the beauty of having two gun key forwards and many reliable avenues to goal.

[saintbrat]

I can see that there are a lot of posters who dont want Jimmy Gwilt dropped, but with Stephen King, Raph Clarke and Max Hudgton to come back into the team a few players will have to make way for them. I suggest Jim will be one of them.

there is a differance to being out of the side because a more senior/ more experienced player is ready than "never again" as stated by the OP.

struth if we never played players ever again who mucked up we'd be playing no body--- every player has a down day- personally I thought Nick D had a shocker.... should we drop him to?

[meher baba]

then complaining about our team mainly kicking the ball to him would be as silly as complaining that the Hawks kicked it to Roughead too often on Saturday

they went to roughhead because buddy was copping an absolute towelling. that is the beauty of having two gun key forwards and many reliable avenues to goal.

Agreed, which is why Kosi should play forward instead of Gwilt. But he couldn't/didn't last night, which is why Gwilt played there and - far being a target for the sort of intense criticism he has received from the OP and others - he should be praised for making a reasonable fist of it, albeit that he only kicked one goal and took 3 marks.

[joffaboy]

From the games i have seen this year the Saints forward pressure has been the best I have seen since the Hamill days - and probably better than that as Hamill was usually one out.

It seems to me that all of our forwards are putting on extreme pressure in defence and Gwilt is part of that. Isn't this what the coach wants? Isn't this vital in our 6-0 start?

Jimmy didn't have a great game last night but did what the coach would have wanted of him and negated Lakes run out of defence.

Jimmy should stay.

[plugger66]

From the games i have seen this year the Saints forward pressure has been the best I have seen since the Hamill days - and probably better than that as Hamill was usually one out.

It seems to me that all of our forwards are putting on extreme pressure in defence and Gwilt is part of that. Isn't this what the coach wants? Isn't this vital in our 6-0 start?

Jimmy didn't have a great game last night but did what the coach would have wanted of him and negated Lakes run out of defence.

Jimmy should stay.

Dont agree. Surely people on here no more about his role than our coaches and if they say he isnt doing a good job then he must not be. Should go even if he is doing his role perfectly in the eyes of RL.

[joffaboy]

From the games i have seen this year the Saints forward pressure has been the best I have seen since the Hamill days - and probably better than that as Hamill was usually one out.

It seems to me that all of our forwards are putting on extreme pressure in defence and Gwilt is part of that. Isn't this what the coach wants? Isn't this vital in our 6-0 start?

Jimmy didn't have a great game last night but did what the coach would have wanted of him and negated Lakes run out of defence.

Jimmy should stay.

Dont agree. Surely people on here no more about his role than our coaches and if they say he isnt doing a good job then he must not be. Should go even if he is doing his role perfectly in the eyes of RL.

yeah well fair enough. Hope Rossy reads this forum and takes heed of the opinions - would have gone so much better than the pathetic 6-0 start because - well who have they beaten?

He has been just lucky.

You have convinced me. If Ross doesn't listen to this forum and immediately not only drop Gwilt but also delist him and then sue him for impersonating a footballer - well Lyon has to go.

[matrix]

Hope Rossy reads this forum and takes heed of the opinions - would have gone so much better than the pathetic 6-0 start because - well who have they beaten?

He has been just lucky.

You have convinced me. If Ross doesn't listen to this forum and immediately not only drop Gwilt but also delist him and then sue him for impersonating a footballer - well Lyon has to go.

hahahahaha

[bergholt]

Dont agree. Surely people on here no more about his role than our coaches and if they say he isnt doing a good job then he must not be. Should go even if he is doing his role perfectly in the eyes of RL.

i think it's called an opinion. they're like arseholes, everyone has one.

[plugger66]

Dont agree. Surely people on here no more about his role than our coaches and if they say he isnt doing a good job then he must not be. Should go even if he is doing his role perfectly in the eyes of RL.

i think it's called an opinion. they're like arseholes, everyone has one.

Yes agree and my opinion is that we have won 6 out of 6 and RL knows exactly what role Jimmy has and whether he is doing it or not.

[Duggie]

It will not be long before you are singing his praises Bergholt.

[St. Luke]

Are you for real?

Jim has been fantastic so far, especially the last 2 or 3 weeks. Very good again tonight.

Provides a strong, physical presence, has very, very good skills, and us learning to read the play. He has really been given an opportunity to shine of late and hasnt disappointed.

I love the way he uses his size now. Used to think he was just an awkward gangly bloke, but can really impose himself on a contest. Love the Gwilt.

I'll second that! I think Jimmy has been really consistent! Certainly he's got some serious strength and isn't afraid to have a go.

[saintspremiers]

I can see that there are a lot of posters who dont want Jimmy Gwilt dropped, but with Stephen King, Raph Clarke and Max Hudgton to come back into the team a few players will have to make way for them. I suggest Jim will be one of them.

Complete and utter rubbish, with all due respect!

Why change a winning formula, 6 out 6 and 194% - WHY change unless you have to?

I think boderbarry you are forgetting about injuries - they will always happen, and some will be more than one weekers as has been the case so far.

So when they do happen, a spot for Raph and Max, who haven't played this year yet, will come up.

The only possible in would be Kingy this week, but not for Gwilty - perhaps Eddy, but to be honest I'm struggling to find a name.

Maybe Ross is struggling to find a person to drop also, so Kingy may get another week on the sidelines to get 110% fit!

[Devilhead]

The problem last night wasn't that Gwilt underperformed. It's that we were one tall forward short. We should have played McEvoy, and I hope either he or King (if fit) replaces a non-tall next week.

exactly. allowing us to play kosi forward.

agreed.

So you agree Bergholt that Gwilt didn't underperform

I'm confused because initially you said he did underpeform and now you are agreeing that he didn't

[bergholt]

The problem last night wasn't that Gwilt underperformed. It's that we were one tall forward short. We should have played McEvoy, and I hope either he or King (if fit) replaces a non-tall next week.

exactly. allowing us to play kosi forward.

agreed.

So you agree Bergholt that Gwilt didn't underperform

I'm confused because initially you said he did underpeform and now you are agreeing that he didn't

nah, sorry mate.

if you read it, you'll see that punter said "the problem last night wasn't that gwilt underperformed". i agree with that. the problem was that he was put in a position that he can't play.

also, he underperformed, as he has for the majority of the year. but that wasn't the problem punter was talking about.

understand?

[bergholt]

It will not be long before you are singing his praises Bergholt.

that would be great, honestly. it took jb about five years to win me over.

all i'm saying is that he's not playing well enough right now. this isn't unfixable but if we're to be a great side - and we've got the potential - then we shouldn't be putting up with mediocrity. especially when there are good players looking decent in the reserves who probably deserve a spot.

[SainterK]

I haven't read this entire post, but in fairness to Gwilt it's not like you have put the entire teams stats up there to make it a fair comparison. Maybe even pick a few players from other sides that peform similar roles, and compare stats. Anyone can post a singular players stats, and make an argument.

I personally have seen a lot of improvement. He is young, and will continue to improve.

[Devilhead]

the problem was that he was put in a position that he can't play

See mate this is where you FAIL massively

How the hell do you know what Lyon wanted Gwilt to do in that "supposed position" you keep harping on about

You keep saying that he was playing as our 2nd marking forward but in reality you actually don't know jack shite about what Lyon instructed Gwilt to do in our forwardline

In the context of the game he took a very dangerous Brian Lake out of the equation and nullified his attacking run out of defence

Hell even the commentators kept saying theat Eade should move Lake down forward as he was having absolutely no impact on the game - mainly thanks to Lyon and Gwilt no doubt

Seriously remove the blinkers we won convincingly and everyone played their part and now we sit on top of the ladder 6-0

[duckduckduckgoose]

For Harvey's sake the kid is 22 years old

i like what you did there

[santazzi]

gwilt isn't good enough and he's taking game time away from someone else. we would have been a better team tonight if kossie played permanent forward and mcevoy was in the side changing in the ruck - gwilt is not a second tall option up forward.

you know how it looked like we were going to riewoldt every time we went forward, and as a result he always had three on him, and he kept getting it out wide and missing (hard) shots at goal? you know why that was? because our second tall target wasn't presenting as required.

he played what looked to me like 100% of the game - i don't remember him going off - had 13 possessions (fourth last), 69% effective (fifth last), took 3 marks (fifth last), had three tackles (eighth last). he kicked one goal, from a free kick from a pretty loose slinging tackle.

notice that when both kosi and gardy went forward at various times, they bobbed up and took marks inside 50. they weren't down there for very long but when they were they led and presented well and were legitimate second/third options. gwilt didn't take a mark inside 50. he doesn't look anything like a tall forward. built like tarzan, plays like jane? here's his record this year, in a side that's dominating:

R1: 12 disp, 4 marks, 2 tackles
R2: 12 disp, 1 mark, 1 behind, 2 tackles, 2 inside 50s
R3: 27 disp, 8 marks, 3 tackles, 1 assist, 3 inside 50s
R4: 9 disp, 2 marks, 1 goal, 4 tackles, 1 assist, 1 inside 50
R5: 15 disp, 2 marks, 1 goal 1 behind, 2 tackles, 2 inside 50s
R6: 13 disp, 3 marks, 1 goal, 3 tackles, 4 inside 50s

he's supposed to be tall and he's averaging 3.33 marks a game, 0.5 goals a game! forward pressure? 2.67 tackles a game! floating half forward? 2.0 inside 50s a game!

we're winning games, so it's not obvious, but our 22nd player is an absolute passenger. i'm sure he's a really nice guy and he's trying hard, but he's not up to it.

I will take a different take on this . I will make a simple statment and then ask a couple of quetions.

The statment: the statistic you produced is impressive..........
The questions: 1.do you think that Ross is so laid back and incopetent that he does not have those stats
2. do you think that Ross is so stupid that he has no idea of what the implications of those stats are.....
3. do you think that Ross is so daft that the only basis to judge standaerds expected of his team members are those stats.

Please enlighten me..................

[saintjake]

again he is used as a whipping boy
BUT THIS TIME WE HAVNT LOST
gosh some of you must be bored on here.
not every player is going to get 20 touches a game
the game is not all about touches.
aaron hamill rarley got 20 touches
roo doesnt get 20 touches.
jsut becuase he around the same height as dal and the rest
doesnt mean he will get 20 touches
he has a role to play and obviously atm he is playing it very well
otherwise he would be in the 2's
so obviously
some of you need to find a different hobby.
maybe go play some lawn bowls..
instead of bagging a player who is doing his job.

ok:)

[bergholt]

I will take a different take on this . I will make a simple statment and then ask a couple of quetions.

The statment: the statistic you produced is impressive..........
The questions: 1.do you think that Ross is so laid back and incopetent that he does not have those stats
2. do you think that Ross is so stupid that he has no idea of what the implications of those stats are.....
3. do you think that Ross is so daft that the only basis to judge standaerds expected of his team members are those stats.

Please enlighten me..................

how can i enlighten you? you haven't addressed the substance of my argument.

i'm not the coach and neither (as far as i know) are you, so neither of us have access to this mythical other basis for judgement you seem to refer to. it would seem to be hard to have a discussion based on some arbitrary measure which may or may not exist.

maybe ross always needs an attractive man in his side and that's the role gwilt's filling? that would explain michael rix. but even if that is the case, my opinion is that raph clarke is more attractive than gwilt and he's in the reserves. drop gwilt and bring in raph.

i think there's some substance in people's arguments that he took lake out of the game. i certainly hadn't thought of that when i initially posted. i still don't think he's a second tall forward but maybe tagging the opposition full back is an important role.

but your saying that i don't know how ross is judging him so therefore can't question his form is a profoundly anti-rational stance. why bother thinking about how the team is playing at all? just leave it all to the coach. he knows best. if we're winning. otherwise sack him and get someone else who you can follow blindly until he starts losing.

stupid.

[maverick]

Agree we went in one tall short last night, but I thought Gwilt played his role well.

He contested well, took at least one very good contested mark and kicked a good goal when he had the chance.

Playing half forward is probably the toughest role out there, especially as undersized marking target, but he is doing a solid job.

He has something not many on our list have, a booming accurate 60 metre kick. It breaks lines and opens the goals up outside the 50m line....

[saintly]

The OP is making the major mistake (as I and others on here sometimes do) of thinking that a player's entire contribution can be measured in terms of statistics.

He and others on this thread are also getting confused about what the problem with "kick it to Roo" actually amounts to. It is only a major problem when Roo is swamped by defenders. If, because of our forward structure, Riewoldt is a clear target a lot of the time, then complaining about our team mainly kicking the ball to him would be as silly as complaining that the Hawks kicked it to Roughead too often on Saturday.

Last night, Roo had 17 disposals and 14 marks. He got 4 goals, 5 behinds and added a goal assist. If he'd kicked straighter, the final scoreboard would have reflected our dominance in the game. So kicking it to him as often as possible seems to have been an excellent option last night.

Why did this happen? 1) Riewoldt had a terrific game in open play and got the better of Morris. 2) Our forward structure enabled Riewoldt to play 1 on 1 a lot of the time.

Gwilt played an important role as part of our forward structure. He isn't the greatest marker, he isn't the quickest runner, but he looked like (and the Bulldogs treated him like he was) an offensive threat. Also, he used his body well.

Gwilt is clearly in the bottom 3 of the 22 who turned out last night (I would rate the others as being Eddy and Geary: I personally think McQualter has pushed it up a notch).

Eddy was good last night: for me, it was the best game he had played for the club and was a sign that Lyon's faith in him might not be as blind as I and others had thought.

Geary was only so-so. The stats record him as having made 24 disposals and 4 tackles, while Gwilt is shown as making 13 disposals and 3 tackles. But, personally, I can remember lots of things Gwilt did (mainly good and a couple of bad), whereas I'm struggling to recall one significant incident involving Geary.

To sum up, I wouldn't be surprised or shocked if Gwilt was dropped for Raph against the Pies. Although Gwilt is improving week by week, he will continue to dwell on the fringe of selection for some time to come.

Replacing Gwilt with one of Goose, Miles or Armo would be a backward step IMO. The last thing we will need to do against the Pies is to start constantly turning the ball over, and having Gram, Eddy, Dawson, Blake and Jones (although all but Gram seem to be improving over time) in the team is quite enough of this sort of risk to be going on with.

It often amazes me the extent to which posters on here underestimate the importance of kicking skills in football. Also, I find the criticism of the likes of Gwilt, Raph, BJ (once upon a time) and others for "hesitating" before they dispose of the ball quite bewildering.

Gram never hesitates.........................................

what does OP stand for?

[SainterK]

I think original poster?