Dawson Vs Carroll

[bendigo bob]

Would have been very interesting to see how Carroll would have gone if we had selected him. You would presume that he would have come into the team when Maxy went down. I believe that only similarity between Dawson and Carroll is that they are both big bodied backmen. For mine Dawson has more agility, skill, run and importantly youth. As RL said they had to talk him into playing again. I for one had my doubts about him but that just shows how little I know and how astute our people in charge are. Carroll also was going to come with a lot of baggage. I would put this down as another tick in the positive column for our coach and footy staff.

[Cairnsman]

I'm glad they went with Zac. He's looking like he's got a future.

[busso mick]

Just one look at him belting out the song in the rooms after the game and it is obvious he is enjoying his footy and his confidence is growing by the week. Our recruiting team have got a good eye for football flesh, as all of our recycled recruits are doing very well.

[perfectionist]

I presume you mean Nathan Carroll. He had proved, over a long period of time in the AFL, that he was NO GOOD! Too small for a key position, too slow for a runner and too bad with his skills for any any part. Hint: Any player that Melbourne delisted in 2008 is a real non goer.

Zac Dawson was a risk. To be honest, I never saw him play for Hawthorn nor did I remember seeing anything of THAT game against Collingwood. So, he was a blank piece of paper as far as I was concerned in round one. On that evening, I could hardly believe what I was seeing and since then he has got better and better with only his second game being described as "average". The Saints just don't pick up players like that - or we haven't in a long long time.

A poster last week, somewhat tongue in cheek, suggested Zac Dawson for AA. Who can point to a better FB in any team this year? I would say that only Scarlett has been his equal. The best part about him is the understanding that he has with the rest of the back line and he of all players could have been forgiven for having taken some time to grow accustom to the style of his team mates. But, no such problem. I suppose the coaching staff need to take a bow at this point as well.

I can bag players with the best of them, but truthfully can anyone recall a better 9 game debut for the Saints? I can't and I've been watching our Saints since 1961. He's a beauty.

[Ghost Like]

Good point about being wary of a player a bottom club delists. The way Zac has played has been a very pleasant eye opener. Plus he would have brought the added bonus of Hawthorn set ups and drills with him. I'm sure some of that knowledge would have been tapped.

[saintsRrising]

In Ross we Trust !!!!


The way I look at it the club looking at Carroll was a good thing.

They wisely looked forward to 2009 and realised that if we had an injury to Max that we were vunerbale.

So they wanted back up...and in the end they went with Zac.

Glad we have a fotball department now that practices active list management.

[evertonfc]

I can bag players with the best of them, but truthfully can anyone recall a better 9 game debut for the Saints? I can't and I've been watching our Saints since 1961. He's a beauty.

Geez, off the top of my head* since you began watching footy...

Darrel Baldock won our B&F in his opening year (1963).

In Ian Stewart's first year, he was selected to play for Victoria after just four senior matches. It was 1963 and he was about to turn 19 years old.

John McIntosh finished 5th in the Brownlow in his first year (1970).

Nicky Winmar had kicked 19 goals in his first nine matches (1987) and only once had under 17 touches.

Gilbert McAdam had 462 disposals in his first year (1991) and only once in his first nine matches did he have under 19 touches, including 32 on debut.

Jim Krakouer had 36 touches on debut and then picked up 20+ in his next four games (1990), and then kicking a goal-a-game for his next four games (excluding the one where he was injured in the opening minutes and didn't get a touch).

Dale Kickett kicked 10 goals in his first nine games (1991) and only once had under 15 touches.

Jason Heatley kicked 35 goals in his first nine games for the Saints (1997), including three bags of five or more (booting nine in R14).

========

Big Carl had a famous debut, but his next eight matches are debatable. Justin Koschitzke's first nine matches were also very servicable.

And if you wanna be picky about it, nine-game debut for the Saints must include all the players we've traded for or drafted in the PSD. Hamill, Gehrig, Powell, Ray, Guerra, etc. Because Zac did play a few with Hawthorn

It's good company. But I wouldn't be getting too carried away

* - exact stats required research. Do you honestly think I know McAdam had 462 touches? What - and you did? Liar. You didn't. And you couldn't read this text without enlarging it, so how can I trust you?

[Animal Enclosure]

Animal Enclosure
Club Player


Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 1079

Posted: Fri 24 Oct 2008 6:48am Post subject:
If they want a back up defender why not Zac Dawson?

_____________________________________________________

I'm claiming him as my boy & have the post to prove it!

Nice work Harpo!

[stinger]

[quote="perfectionist"]]]

off the top of my head......graeme gellie won the saints best and fairest in his first year....greg burns was a champion from day one...as was trevor barker and georgie young......cuz asn't too horrible either.....glen elliott was another who got regular bog's from his first game........

[evertonfc]

off the top of my head......graeme gellie won the saints best and fairest in his first year....

True. It's perhaps unfair that many players arrived as the Saints are ready made gun-players from interstate, so one needs to be careful about how they word things

I'd say Zac Dawson "has made one of St Kilda's best nine-game debuts I've seen since being dumped by another club and winning promotion off the rookie list".

Still, on that count Stephen Milne's first nine were probably better, too

And if Allan Murray had have maintained the rage...

[stinger]

off the top of my head......graeme gellie won the saints best and fairest in his first year....

True. It's perhaps unfair that many players arrived as the Saints are ready made gun-players from interstate, so one needs to be careful about how they word things

I'd say Zac Dawson "has made one of St Kilda's best nine-game debuts I've seen since being dumped by another club and winning promotion off the rookie list".

Still, on that count Stephen Milne's first nine were probably better, too

And if Allan Murray had have maintained the rage...

gellie came from redan ..via northcote......no interstater

[Saints Premiers 2008]

he wouldnt be doing too badly, actually i would see him doing a similar job apart from the odd spoil and the bump on hall against the swans

out entire defence has done very well, all 18 and have assisted each other and zac is benefitting greatly

[perfectionist]

I can bag players with the best of them, but truthfully can anyone recall a better 9 game debut for the Saints? I can't and I've been watching our Saints since 1961. He's a beauty.

Geez, off the top of my head* since you began watching footy...

Darrel Baldock won our B&F in his opening year (1963).

In Ian Stewart's first year, he was selected to play for Victoria after just four senior matches. It was 1963 and he was about to turn 19 years old.

John McIntosh finished 5th in the Brownlow in his first year (1970).

Nicky Winmar had kicked 19 goals in his first nine matches (1987) and only once had under 17 touches.

Gilbert McAdam had 462 disposals in his first year (1991) and only once in his first nine matches did he have under 19 touches, including 32 on debut.

Jim Krakouer had 36 touches on debut and then picked up 20+ in his next four games (1990), and then kicking a goal-a-game for his next four games (excluding the one where he was injured in the opening minutes and didn't get a touch).

Dale Kickett kicked 10 goals in his first nine games (1991) and only once had under 15 tocuhes.

Jason Heatley kicked 35 goals in his first nine games for the Saints (1997), including three bags of five or more (booting nine in R14).

Big Carl had a famous debut, but his next eight matches are debatable. Justin Koschitzke's first nine matches were also very servicable.

And if you wanna be picky about it, nine-game debut for the Saints must include all the players we've traded for or drafted in the PSD. Hamill, Gehrig, Powell, Ray, Guerra, etc. Because Zac did play a few with Hawthorn...It's good company. But I wouldn't be getting too carried away...

Did you actually see any of these players? If you did, and you are equating Zac Dawson with Darrell Baldock, Nicky Winwar, Ian Stewart and John McIntosh, then I rest my case. I saw them all, and Zac Dawson is NOT their equal - YET. It's one thing to have had an illustrious career of 100 games interstate when there were no interstate AFL teams and another to transfer from one club, the premiership club, to another in 2009. I would have thought that even a complete idiot could appreciate that. But clearly, I was wrong. The desire to elevate Max to one of the Saints GREATS in some people's eyes clearly blinds them to the on going truth. He has been, and will be if recalled, part of the problem and not part of the solution. If he comes back we will lose the important games. He can't take a contested mark ( Zac has taken more in nine games than Max has taken in nine years), he can't kick (they are all sixty metre kicks - thirty up and thirty down) and he can't run. He can punch, but a one trick pony is of no use in modern footy - no, I'm wrong - a one trick pony has never been any good in footy. He can sook, we saw that in the 1998 semi final, which we lost by few points. I would have sacked him then, I make no bones about. The moment a player, on match day, questions the authority of a coach, then it's Hasta la vista baby.

You remember the coach - Stan Alves, the bloke who got us to our first GF in 27 years and was sacked by the Board at the end of the 1998 almost entirely because Max said he didn't like him. Stan was a great one on the skills and discipline of the game. No wonder he and Max did not see eye to eye. Luckily for us, Tim Watson was then appointed coach, then Malcolm Blight, then Grant Thomas, then.....Oh well, I suppose history has caught up with us. Thank goodness. Give Max the Axe!

[Beej]

Did you all see Zac's reaction when he wrapped up that Brisbane player in the fourth and the umpire signaled holding the ball?

Got up and made sure that Brisbane player knew all about it.

He's got a bit of spunk now, has Zac.

[evertonfc]

gellie came from redan ..via northcote......no interstater

I should have amended that to city/country/interstate, because I wasn't referring to just him.

Many players arrived out of bush leagues (O&M, for example) or the amatuers as gun players.

It was vastly different to today, where it almost never happens.

Did you actually see any of these players? If you did, and you are equating Zac Dawson with Darrell Baldock, Nicky Winwar, Ian Stewart and John McIntosh, then I rest my case. I saw them all, and Zac Dawson is NOT their equal - YET.

That's why I said it was good company to keep. But that wasn't your question. This was:

truthfully can anyone recall a better 9 game debut for the Saints? I can't and I've been watching our Saints since 1961.

So, you put out the challenge to say if anyone had seen a better first nine games. I offered an answer. A fair one at that.

It's not a slight on Zac. He's made a superb start to his St Kilda career.

[st.byron]

Did you actually see any of these players? If you did, and you are equating Zac Dawson with Darrell Baldock, Nicky Winwar, Ian Stewart and John McIntosh, then I rest my case. I saw them all, and Zac Dawson is NOT their equal - YET. It's one thing to have had an illustrious career of 100 games interstate when there were no interstate AFL teams and another to transfer from one club, the premiership club, to another in 2009. I would have thought that even a complete idiot could appreciate that. But clearly, I was wrong. The desire to elevate Max to one of the Saints GREATS in some people's eyes clearly blinds them to the on going truth. He has been, and will be if recalled, part of the problem and not part of the solution. If he comes back we will lose the important games. He can't take a contested mark ( Zac has taken more in nine games than Max has taken in nine years), he can't kick (they are all sixty metre kicks - thirty up and thirty down) and he can't run. He can punch, but a one trick pony is of no use in modern footy - no, I'm wrong - a one trick pony has never been any good in footy. He can sook, we saw that in the 1998 semi final, which we lost by few points. I would have sacked him then, I make no bones about. The moment a player, on match day, questions the authority of a coach, then it's Hasta la vista baby.

You remember the coach - Stan Alves, the bloke who got us to our first GF in 27 years and was sacked by the Board at the end of the 1998 almost entirely because Max said he didn't like him. Stan was a great one on the skills and discipline of the game. No wonder he and Max did not see eye to eye. Luckily for us, Tim Watson was then appointed coach, then Malcolm Blight, then Grant Thomas, then.....Oh well, I suppose history has caught up with us. Thank goodness. Give Max the Axe!

Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

[perfectionist]

...Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

Did you see his performance in the 1998 finals? If not, then shut up moron. Respect is to whoever is the coach at the time, especially on game day. The W/L ratio in games that he has played in is less than 50%. No surprise for me. Zac's batting at 100 at the moment, fortunately a big surprise for me.

[Milton66]

...Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

Did you see his performance in the 1998 finals? If not, then shut up moron. Respect is to whoever is the coach at the time, especially on game day. The W/L ratio in games that he has played in is less than 50%. No surprise for me. Zac's batting at 100 at the moment, fortunately a big surprise for me.

Didn't Stan rip in to him once at 3/4 time? Can't recall the game, but he was pushing him around.

[Bernard Shakey]

Stan Alves, the bloke who got us to our first GF in 27 years and was sacked by the Board at the end of the 1998 almost entirely because Max said he didn't like him. Stan was a great one on the skills and discipline of the game. No wonder he and Max did not see eye to eye. Luckily for us, Tim Watson was then appointed coach, then Malcolm Blight, then Grant Thomas, then.....Oh well, I suppose history has caught up with us. Thank goodness. Give Max the Axe!

Stan got us to a GF in '97, but then he thought it was all his doing and he lost the playing group.

He had to go, because you can't sack the team and when the coach has lost them, as Stan did, the coach has to go.

Stan lost the plot and started treating them as schoolboys (they probably were) which will never work in this day and age. Might have worked 30 years ago.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

...Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

Did you see his performance in the 1998 finals? If not, then shut up moron. Respect is to whoever is the coach at the time, especially on game day. The W/L ratio in games that he has played in is less than 50%. No surprise for me. Zac's batting at 100 at the moment, fortunately a big surprise for me.

zac is batting at a hundred due to everyone else

much like a person in a wheelchair performing at chf during the lions 01-03 and still winning...

[SainterK]

...Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

Did you see his performance in the 1998 finals? If not, then shut up moron. Respect is to whoever is the coach at the time, especially on game day. The W/L ratio in games that he has played in is less than 50%. No surprise for me. Zac's batting at 100 at the moment, fortunately a big surprise for me.

zac is batting at a hundred due to everyone else

much like a person in a wheelchair performing at chf during the lions 01-03 and still winning...

I have a strange feeling you may of expressed similar views on other threads?

At least no-one could accuse you of not making a point....

[perfectionist]

...Didn't Stan rip in to him once at 3/4 time? Can't recall the game, but he was pushing him around.

It was at 1/4 time - and Max cried and sooked and lost us the game. We had another game to play since we finished 6th, against Melbourne, but the damage to team morale was done and we were smashed. But Stan was sacked! It was a weak decision by a weak admin the likes of which had characterised the Saints since the year dot, well 1897 anyway. I recall listening to stories from my father and uncle about the events at Fitzroy Street in the 20's and 30's when the Saints had strong teams but where certain players had destroyed team morale. Yet, it was the coaches who were made scapegoats, especially the strong ones. Just look at the longevity of Saints coaches. Grant Thomas is number 2 on the list!

[skeptic]

...Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

Did you see his performance in the 1998 finals? If not, then shut up moron. Respect is to whoever is the coach at the time, especially on game day. The W/L ratio in games that he has played in is less than 50%. No surprise for me. Zac's batting at 100 at the moment, fortunately a big surprise for me.

Didn't Stan rip in to him once at 3/4 time? Can't recall the game, but he was pushing him around.

I remember this vividly.

It was 3/4 time in the qualifying final vs Sydney
The footage showed Stan speaking very intensly at Max and Hudghton (who looked much younger then) had an expression on his face that suggested "yeah whatever", he wasn't really looking at Stan either so Stan put his hand to Max's chin and made him at him.

I don't know accurate this is but Stan appeared on Talking footy the monday after and said that he was giving Max a spray about how badly he was playing on O'Laughlin and told him that he wasn't going to move him and that the club needed him to get on top of that contest.

He reports saying to Max ur the best defender we have and Max and that's when Max looked away (very dejected) and that's when he grabbed him and said "who'd the best defender in this team".

Again, i don't know if that's true, but that's Stan's version of events

[Saints Premiers 2008]

...Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

Did you see his performance in the 1998 finals? If not, then shut up moron. Respect is to whoever is the coach at the time, especially on game day. The W/L ratio in games that he has played in is less than 50%. No surprise for me. Zac's batting at 100 at the moment, fortunately a big surprise for me.

zac is batting at a hundred due to everyone else

much like a person in a wheelchair performing at chf during the lions 01-03 and still winning...

I have a strange feeling you may of expressed similar views on other threads?

At least no-one could accuse you of not making a point....

as its the truth

if zac performed the exact same way and we were 3-6, 4-5 etc most on here would label him as the first out saying he is crapola blah blah blah

he isnt doing much however we are winning

[SainterK]

...Max Hudghton just missed AA selection last year. He's bled St.Kilda throughout his career. It's one thing to have an opinion that he's past his use by date, which I strongly disagree with, but can understand your POV as he's more than likely in his last year, but you should have your nuts roasted for suggesting that Max is soft or that he should have been sacked. The guy is a champ of our club. You're either sh*t stirring for the hell of it or you've got no respect. Wash your mouth out.

Did you see his performance in the 1998 finals? If not, then shut up moron. Respect is to whoever is the coach at the time, especially on game day. The W/L ratio in games that he has played in is less than 50%. No surprise for me. Zac's batting at 100 at the moment, fortunately a big surprise for me.

zac is batting at a hundred due to everyone else

much like a person in a wheelchair performing at chf during the lions 01-03 and still winning...

I have a strange feeling you may of expressed similar views on other threads?

At least no-one could accuse you of not making a point....

as its the truth

if zac performed the exact same way and we were 3-6, 4-5 etc most on here would label him as the first out saying he is crapola blah blah blah

he isnt doing much however we are winning

Most, as in you?