Robert Shaw's Team of the Year (so far)

[InkerSaint]

I just feel he's over-rated because he can kick 3 goals and take a few marks leading up the ground and everyone will go on about how he dominated and how he's a superstar and inspirational. When you're the main forward target and the Centre-Half Forward of your side, that's pretty much par for what you should deliver. Jonathon Brown or Lance Franklin can play games where they kick 5 and take heaps of marks and nobody shifts an eyebrow.

No wonder you're copping a flaming. You're talking out of your ar$e. Why don't you check the Coleman list first?

As for stealing B&Fs...honestly...

TROLL alert folks - undeclared Hawthorn supporter. Go do a search and see what his first posts were.

[St DAC]

And if you reckon Corey Enright hasn't been great this year you haven't been watching very closely. He'd be one of the most underrated players going around. Ask any Geelong supporter. I'd have him in a heartbeat at the Saints.

[Devilhead]

But Riewoldt is the focal point on the end of Montagna, Goddard and Dal Santo. A forward's dream.

But Brown is the focal point on the end of Black, Power and Rich. A forwards dream

and Franklin has Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Rioli ........

Nick has the physical fitness, talent and delivery to kick 5 goals every week AND take 10+ marks up the ground. Why isn't he?

Below you will find stats where Roo, Brown & Franklin have kicked 4 or more goals in games this year

Roos stats (4 or more goals only) - 6 times

Rd 4 - 26 disposals 9 marks 5.0 goals
Rd 5 - 23 disposals 10 marks 4.1 goals
Rd 6 - 17 disposals 14 marks 4.5 goals
Rd 7 - 17 disposals 11 marks 5.1 goals
Rd 9 - 11 disposals 8 marks 4.2 goals
Rd 10 - 20 disposals 10 marks 4.1 goals (suffering from flu)

Brown stats (4 or more goals only) - 4 times


Rd 3 - 12 disposals 6 marks 4.2 goals
Rd 6 - 24 disposals 13 marks 5.0 goals
Rd 7 - 19 disposals 11 marks 4.2 goals
Rd 11 - 19 disposals 14 marks 4.5 goals

Franklin stats (4 or more goals only) - 5 times

Rd 1 - 13 disposals 8 marks 5.2 goals
Rd 3 - 13 disposals 7 marks 4.3 goals
Rd 7 - 12 disposals 1 marks 5.1 goals
Rd 8 - 11 disposals 4 marks 4.0 goals
Rd 9 - 14 disposals 8 marks 4.2 goals

Another stat which you might be interested in is that -

Roo has taken 10 or more marks 6 times this year (he has also taken 9 marks twice)
Brown - 3 times
Franklin - 0 times

This year Roo has been averaging 17.3 disposals, 9.4 marks, 1.7 tackles, 3.2 goals (per game)

Brown has been averaging 14.9 disposals, 7.6 marks, 1 tackle, 3.2 goals

Franklin has averaged 13.5 disposals, 5.7 marks, 2.3 tackles, 3.4 goals

Perhaps I am expecting too much.

No it is just that you absolutely don't know what you are talking about

and neither does Robert Shaw

[perfectionist]

...No it is just that you absolutely don't know what you are talking about and neither does Robert Shaw

Quelle Surprise!!

I would have thought that the title of thread might well have been Bozo's Team of the Year (so far) and it would have had greater credibility.

[Devilhead]

...No it is just that you absolutely don't know what you are talking about and neither does Robert Shaw

Quelle Surprise!!

I would have thought that the title of thread might well have been Bozo's Team of the Year (so far) and it would have had greater credibility.

Given the undeniable stats coupled with the amount of ground he covers (compared to the other 2) and throw in the fact he is captain of a club who has a 11-0 zero record Robert Shaw has got it spectacularly wrong with regards to Roo not being named in his rightful position at Centre Half Forward

Roo would be very close to being the league's most influential player thus far this season (or at least in the top 5 and definitely ahead of Brown and Frankiln)

[Moods]

I always laugh when ppl say that Riewoldt is over rated, then shake my head in disbelief. Because he hasn't been reported a half doz times like a Carey or a Jon Brown (or built like them) somehow he's not the man that they are.

I expected roo to win the B&F last year. He was, after all, named CHF in the AA team. Fisher won it - I wonder why the club didn't set it up for roo to win it???

I thought Roo had a bit of a down game on the weekend. He did actually. Only took 14 marks and kicked 3 goals. His level of consistency (considering opposition clubs would spend much of the week trying to stop him) is amazing. I'm tipping that James has either never played footy before, and if he has has never played footy in the fwd line.

[saintly]

roo can sometimes spray the ball when he kicks for goal. Against North he should have had 5 goals rather 3goals 1. one out on the full, and one did not makie the distance. However, his accuracy is still not bad at 63%

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Wow, I say one thing about Nick Riewoldt that isn't "OMG HE'S THE GREATEST EVER" and everyone shoots me down.

Nah, you made a stupid comment about how he's a superstar but he's overrated. Sounds an awful lot like the stuff one hears regularly from opposition supporters who don't see him play much. Pigeon holed yourself right there.

I said he's a superstar. He is. But I'd say Hayes and co. in the middle are far more important to our side.

How much footy do you actually watch? The '09 Saints cover for each other very well. While a replacing a Hayes or some such would be a big ask, the role could be filled. There is no other Saints who could provide what Reiwoldt does.

Please don't get me wrong. I think he's a brilliant player.

Calling him over-rated without backing it up (until now) was probably poor communication then.

I just feel he's over-rated because he can kick 3 goals and take a few marks leading up the ground and everyone will go on about how he dominated and how he's a superstar and inspirational.
/quote]
A few marks?

He leads the league in marks. The next key forward on the list is Brown, who is 20 behind. He's also tied for 3rd in goals with (guess who) Jonathan Brown, behind Franklin and Fev.

The reason people "go on" about how he dominated is pretty clear if you watch him. It's no co-incedence he's the only guy to beat Prestigiacomo this year. During the 3rd and 4th quarter, Reiwoldt was routinely going to the square, leading out to the defensive part of the wing, sprinting back, before presenting 2nd and 3rd leads. By the end of these leads, as hard as Reiwoldt was blowing, Presti at times looked ready to keel over. He does this every week, routinely taking the fittest defender and beating them through gut-running, ourleaping, and at times outcontesting them at the fall of the ball.

It means the Saints routinely have more avenues from defense to attack than their opposition can cover, and makes the Saints very hard to defend against.

But you really have to watch the guy to understand the extent to which he earns every kick and just how hard he is to stop.

When you're the main forward target and the Centre-Half Forward of your side, that's pretty much par for what you should deliver. Jonathon Brown or Lance Franklin can play games where they kick 5 and take heaps of marks and nobody shifts an eyebrow.

When has either had a game where they've "kicked 5 and taken heaps of marks" without attracting comment?

As for the B&F's, half of his were robbed from other players. Montagna for instance in 2007 was our best player all season. He's a favourite son to the point where our awards are biased in his favour.

Montagna's improvement in 2007 was a beacon in a drak year. He wasn't close to Reiwoldt. He might be this year... if Nick Reiwoldt weren't playing (IMO) the best footy of his career (so's Montagna, but the level of domination Roo's been laying on his opponents has been unbelievable)

I'd bet you wouldn't be the only one on this site who thinks Reiwoldt is over-rated... but if you want to put the argument, I'd suggest a better job of backing it up... from the arguments placed, I might suggest keeping a very close eye on Reiwoldt at Friday's match (unfortunately he won't be up against his best matchup in the league - Waite - to really demonstrate what it takes to shut down Roo), and paying special attention to the torture he's going to put his opponent through while collecting those 3 goals and 10 marks, assisting one along the way, and assuring the Carlton defense of a tough night out by creating room and contests in the forward line.

Then suggest to us another Saint who could do it so we can stop being so impressed.

[perfectionist]

Very good analysis BAM! (shhhh), although no-one will be surprised that I think Nick is our number one asset.

Watching Nick live is really the only way to appreciate many of the points raised. With the marking rules as they currently are, very few players can so securely grab the ball as he can (Kosi being another).

The dilemma for teams that he presents is our greatest strength. Play an extra man back and the run from our (now) back seven will overrun all comers (so far at least). Play one on one and he will kick 4 anyway. Try to slow delivery so that someone else can get back and he'll run somewhere which allows Kosi to be the focus. This opposition tactic has succeeded to some extent, but we have been our own worst enemy in this regard with too many handballs before the inevitable kick to contest. An earlier such kick is usually better although probably more productive when Stephen Milne is playing.

If I was to be granted one wish for the year it would be that Our Nick stays fit and strong, at least until the 1st October anyway.

[yipper]

Wow, I say one thing about Nick Riewoldt that isn't "OMG HE'S THE GREATEST EVER" and everyone shoots me down.

Nah, you made a stupid comment about how he's a superstar but he's overrated. Sounds an awful lot like the stuff one hears regularly from opposition supporters who don't see him play much. Pigeon holed yourself right there.

I said he's a superstar. He is. But I'd say Hayes and co. in the middle are far more important to our side.

How much footy do you actually watch? The '09 Saints cover for each other very well. While a replacing a Hayes or some such would be a big ask, the role could be filled. There is no other Saints who could provide what Reiwoldt does.

Please don't get me wrong. I think he's a brilliant player.

Calling him over-rated without backing it up (until now) was probably poor communication then.

I just feel he's over-rated because he can kick 3 goals and take a few marks leading up the ground and everyone will go on about how he dominated and how he's a superstar and inspirational.
/quote]
A few marks?

He leads the league in marks. The next key forward on the list is Brown, who is 20 behind. He's also tied for 3rd in goals with (guess who) Jonathan Brown, behind Franklin and Fev.

The reason people "go on" about how he dominated is pretty clear if you watch him. It's no co-incedence he's the only guy to beat Prestigiacomo this year. During the 3rd and 4th quarter, Reiwoldt was routinely going to the square, leading out to the defensive part of the wing, sprinting back, before presenting 2nd and 3rd leads. By the end of these leads, as hard as Reiwoldt was blowing, Presti at times looked ready to keel over. He does this every week, routinely taking the fittest defender and beating them through gut-running, ourleaping, and at times outcontesting them at the fall of the ball.

It means the Saints routinely have more avenues from defense to attack than their opposition can cover, and makes the Saints very hard to defend against.

But you really have to watch the guy to understand the extent to which he earns every kick and just how hard he is to stop.

When you're the main forward target and the Centre-Half Forward of your side, that's pretty much par for what you should deliver. Jonathon Brown or Lance Franklin can play games where they kick 5 and take heaps of marks and nobody shifts an eyebrow.

When has either had a game where they've "kicked 5 and taken heaps of marks" without attracting comment?

As for the B&F's, half of his were robbed from other players. Montagna for instance in 2007 was our best player all season. He's a favourite son to the point where our awards are biased in his favour.

Montagna's improvement in 2007 was a beacon in a drak year. He wasn't close to Reiwoldt. He might be this year... if Nick Reiwoldt weren't playing (IMO) the best footy of his career (so's Montagna, but the level of domination Roo's been laying on his opponents has been unbelievable)

I'd bet you wouldn't be the only one on this site who thinks Reiwoldt is over-rated... but if you want to put the argument, I'd suggest a better job of backing it up... from the arguments placed, I might suggest keeping a very close eye on Reiwoldt at Friday's match (unfortunately he won't be up against his best matchup in the league - Waite - to really demonstrate what it takes to shut down Roo), and paying special attention to the torture he's going to put his opponent through while collecting those 3 goals and 10 marks, assisting one along the way, and assuring the Carlton defense of a tough night out by creating room and contests in the forward line.

Then suggest to us another Saint who could do it so we can stop being so impressed.

Excellent summary Bam. Now maybe the flog can actually go and watch games of footy and learn something about how they are played and who are the champions.

[James]

Gah, what was I posting?

Alright, I've been enlightened. Is that what you want to hear?

I had a tonsillectomy recently and I'm on some heavy painkillers, I haven't been thinking straight.

All your arguements are rock solid. I retract and wish this entire episode to go away.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Gah, what was I posting?

Alright, I've been enlightened. Is that what you want to hear?

I had a tonsillectomy recently and I'm on some heavy painkillers, I haven't been thinking straight.

All your arguements are rock solid. I retract and wish this entire episode to go away.

For myself, no, an apology and retraction is the last thing I'm after.

Basically, I'm a little put out at the moment with all the "you're a troll", "no I'm not!" going on here the last couple of days (especially where I suspect 2 out of 3 aren't), and hope a more constructive way of dealing with a (relatively) new poster who throws up a softball cliched argument used regularly to trash-talk Saints supporters might be to challenge on it rather than the colours they bleed.

So, what I'd like is some real back and forth (much down this year with all the winning). Rather than backing down, I'd prefer you to be looking for episodes that back up your opinion and seeing if you can make it stand up. If you're going to back down, do it on Reiwoldt's performance, not forum logic (though the painkillers make a happy medium ).

You'll then be able to say you got a useful outcome from the forum and be one up on many of us

[James]

Any information, if properly understood and reasoned independantly, can be used to form an opinion. I've seen their arguments and decided for myself that they are fair enough, but I also agree that a good conversation can come out of this, so I'll elaborate on a few of the things I was trying to get across. Hopefully we can have an intelligent discussion on the merits of Riewoldt and identify his strengths and weaknesses.

I do have a few niggles with Riewoldt at the moment - the first isn't really his fault, but I think he played better under GT, due to the lack of structure. Riewoldt is a dazzling and creative player, and was much more damaging (he kicked bigger tallies in 04/06 than in his "career best" 08) when being let loose to intercept, win the ball and kick goals at will. Lyon's structured gameplan is working better than GT's in either every other way or neary every other way, but restricting Riewoldt to be the marking target at a certain zone and the like seems to be hampering his ability to seriously impact games. 2007 I felt was a real off year for him, he struggled when our midfield was really down.

Recently he's shown signs of breaking those shackles and when he does he tears games open. He lifts and goes balistic for patches, often quarters, sometimes halves, once in a blue moon all match (though the last time that happened was in 2006). Good examples were his 2nd half against Hawthorn in the Home and Away season, his opening quarter against Collingwood in the semi final, his opening goals against Fremantle this year and his third quarter against Melbourne the other week.

His consistency after a wonky few opening weeks has been outstanding. He hasn't kicked more than 5 goals so far this year, which was my main concern - other forwards usually boot bags at least once every few weeks, but consistency is much preferred. It's good to rely on 3-4 goals almost guaranteed each week.

I'm thinking it over and I probably expect too much of him. He's only had one bad game this year (last weekend) and even in that he chimed in for a few in junk time. I just want to see him back kicking the big bags again, because I believe with Koschitzke needing serious attention now from the opposition, he is in the position to do so and could have against Brisbane and Melbourne already.