Gilbert vs Gardiner

[kosifantutti23]

I've added up all the goals that people have claimed our players will kick in this and other threads.

On that evidence, the team will be kicking 28 goals every week.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Not sure BJ can kick it to players to add 3+ a game, well actually im sure he cannot. If he was directly invilved in 25 assists for the year that would be great but he isnt going to be involved in 66 assists, not unless he is twice as good as any other player to deliver the ball in the AFL.

I agree; wasn't the 66 range what Akermanis used to tally up to lead the league for Brisbane playing midfield/HFF and delivering to Brown and Lynch? Mooney led the league with 36 in 2008... Nick Reiwoldt was tied for 2nd with 28.

Big ask in this day and age to get that number of assists in any position on the field... If a player not playing FF/HF is invlolved in 3 goals a game (kicks 1/2 assists 1/2) that's a fantastic result (ala Steve Johnson, whose G + A was = 79, an average of ~3.5 per game)... most who could claim it did it on the strength of goals rather than assists.

[saintsRrising]

Well 12 games on we are still looking for our "third tall" or medium forward.


Max going down meant that Gilbert played back and in that postion has been so outstanding that one cannot imagine that pre-season experiment being used except in bursts.


But we needa player in this position.

Gwilt has been tried...and has been ok-ish. Not good or bad.

However with Gwilt playing there it has to me once again demonstrated that our balance and structure is so much better when we have sucha player. This to me was the case when Charlie played there as well. Individually Charlie was not quite good enough. But the team looked beter with him there.


So it would seem to me that Gwilt may come back in .

Other options would be :

* BJ
* going small with Armo..but again structure may not be as good.

* tall witha ruckman or Zac..but to me this is too cumbersome and the structure is poor and forward pressure will suffer.

* Blake...over the years his goal-kicking has been shown to not be good enough...though his leads are excellent.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I reckon that the 3rd tall marking option (across half forward, leading up the wings, like Charlie did last year and Gwilt has been doing this year) is our only "weakness" on the field. Our structure was clearly better when Charlie played his few good games there early last year (in the NAB Cup, especially).
As good as Gilbert has been down back, he's still the guy I'd put there, as we have plenty that can cover him down back. Many probably don't realise that, at 194cm, he's taller than Rooey, yet is incredibly mobile and very fast. Anyone that had the mobility and speed to keep up with him probably wouldn't get close to him in the air, especially when he gets his arms extended and marks it at his highest reach, as he does. He's quicker and more athletic than Charlie Gardiner was and is almost 2 inches taller (and has longer arms). He's also a better, longer and more penetrating kick. He can also drift across packs and take big marks and his tackling would be brilliant. He's also over 2 inches (6cm) taller than Gwilt, who just doesn't take enough marks there yet.
I don't see any reason why he wouldn't do just as well up forward as he has down back. He's only been playing footy for a few years, I think, so it surely wouldn't be that hard to get him playing just as well up forward. And half forward is not like playing deep forward.
Those that say he's only a "defender", probably would have said the same thing if they were asked what they thought about John Anthony being moved from full back to full forward at Collingwood, or Chad Cornes being moved from back to forward, then midfield. Or Shane Ellen being moved from down back to FF in the 97 Grand Final, or O'Hailphin being moved from back to forward on the weekend. Or Fraser Gehrig being moved from the wing, to full back, to full forward.
We really lacked a good marking target between the 50 and the wings on Friday night and will certainly need one there against Geelong. We could do without Rooey having to lead all the way up there, leaving Kosi alone to beat 2 blokes. We also still have half a season to let these guys settle in to the new structure. We can afford to experiment. It just takes guts.

[bigcarl]

As good as Gilbert has been down back, he's still the guy I'd put there, as we have plenty that can cover him down back. Many probably don't realise that, at 194cm, he's taller than Rooey, yet is incredibly mobile and very fast.

if zac could hold down sam's spot on the half back line and give us the same sort of run out of defence, then this could be an option.

[skeptic]

I just don't think Gilbert is good enough to play forward

he's a great backman but he just doesn't seem to have that x-factor that could equate to 1-2 goals a game or a 3 goal blitz

i really think that we need to drop 1 of Dawson, Hudghton, or Blake (don't want to get into that debate on this thread) for either Raph Clarke or Gwilt.
Clarke gives us a bit more flexibility e.g. can swap with Goddard, Fish or Gilbo whereas Gwilt is more proven in that position

[bigcarl]

I just don't think Gilbert is good enough to play forward

i don't see why he can't do anything that gwilt can. the problem with moving him is more that you lose his run out of defence that zac might not be able to match.

[Nattens]

Clarke gives us a bit more flexibility

Yeah, he can give turnovers all over the ground. Not just in the backline. Very flexible player.

[Milton66]

Surely it comes down to what's required in the role?

I can see Gilbo and Zac as marking fwds, almost kpp's, and we have 2 of them already.

Blake shouldn't be dscounted either because he's a good mark, and ok kick for goal. But is he good enough fopr fwd pressure?

It's a tough call, and can only be made harder by Goose knocking on the door.

With the backline looking top heavy (which the scum tried to exploit) then the only options are to drop some one which is tragic given our form, or move someone.

So it gets back to role definition. Does pressure outwiegh actual goals scored?

My view as that you need good kickers in defence, with accurate foot skills. Everything flows from there.

Where Jimmy excells IMO is that his 50m entries by foot can be deadly accurate.

[Shaggy]

Gilbert is not our forward.

And who is our CHB?

RL has some work to do over the break.

[bigcarl]

I can see Gilbo and Zac as marking fwds, almost kpp's, and we have 2 of them already.

gilbert's ground skills are pretty good and he is capably able to hold down a flank in defence.

moving him forward might rob us of run out of the backline, though, with max, blake and zac still in it.

but there are a whole range of options discussed on the other thread.

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=53132

i put in 12 and i'm still not sure i've covered all bases.

in any case, who is to say that there is only one correct answer (or if a problem actually exists).

hopefully the coach, match committee and selectors will go with a good one.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I just don't think Gilbert is good enough to play forward

he's a great backman but he just doesn't seem to have that x-factor that could equate to 1-2 goals a game or a 3 goal blitz

I reckon Gilbo is plenty good enough, and getting better each year, but there's one sure fire way to find out. And i wouldn't be putting him up there to kick goals so much, rather to provide that "bridge" between the backline and Roo and Kosi inside 50. Any goals would be a bonus. They might even say to him to mostly stay out of the 50, to give Roo and Kosi room to move. We just need someone to mark the ball consistently between the 50 metre arcs. Given how young he is, he could even end up holding down centre half forward. I reckon that if he walked into a footy club right now and they had no idea which position he'd played previously (and just went on his size, marking strength, mobility etc, at training), he'd probably be picked at CHF.
Obviously we'd lose a bit of his run from defence, but we have guys we could put back there to provide that (Gwilt, Raph, Gram, Farren, Geary, Miles, Dempster), if necessary, especially if we're top heavy there, like we were on Friday night.
We're in a great position with all the choices we have and we have 10 games to sort it out and get settled before the finals. Here's hoping they're brave enough to make the best choices!

[plugger66]

Gilbert will not be moved forward while Max, Zac and Blake are in the same side. We would have little run out of the backline which in turn means the midfielders get it in slower to the forwards which doesnt help anyone.

[bigcarl]

Gilbert will not be moved forward while Max, Zac and Blake are in the same side. We would have little run out of the backline which in turn means the midfielders get it in slower to the forwards which doesnt help anyone.

you're pretty good at saying what will not happen. how about suggesting what will?

[widereceiver]

Whether Gilbo is the answer at half forward (and whether that would deplete the run from our back half too much) is not at issue IMO. I would like the coaches to consider a more flexible approach a la Kevin Sheedy.

I believe Gilbo will prove many of the naysayers wrong about his ability forward but it should be possible to rotate players between half back and half forward. This would have the effect of unbalancing the opposition. I think a fit Dempster would make a hell of a difference in allowing this flexibility.

BJ, Gilbo, Mini, Gwilt, Blake and even that golden forward Zac could be trialled in these roles. I am sceptical about Raph in front of goal.

[plugger66]

Gilbert will not be moved forward while Max, Zac and Blake are in the same side. We would have little run out of the backline which in turn means the midfielders get it in slower to the forwards which doesnt help anyone.

you're pretty good at saying what will not happen. how about suggesting what will?

It is easier to say what will not happen. The next game may see Blake in the ruck and Jimmy back in the side. Just got a feeling especially since the more mobile ruckmen have come into their own this season. That solves our backline problems for 3 more weeks at least.

[bigcarl]

Gilbert will not be moved forward while Max, Zac and Blake are in the same side. We would have little run out of the backline which in turn means the midfielders get it in slower to the forwards which doesnt help anyone.

you're pretty good at saying what will not happen. how about suggesting what will?

It is easier to say what will not happen. The next game may see Blake in the ruck and Jimmy back in the side. Just got a feeling especially since the more mobile ruckmen have come into their own this season. That solves our backline problems for 3 more weeks at least.

that would be the most likely option, i agree.

if it happens and the match is comfortably in our keeping i wouldn't mind seeing zac tried out for a spell in second ruck.

if he can do it - and i think he can (at least as well as blake) - he could provide a dangerous goalkicking option drifting forward.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

One of the things that both Gardiner (C) and Gwilt have demonstrated to me is just how difficult the role of 3rd tall forward/medium forward is to execute in the modern game.

You've got to be able to:
- Lead like a KPP.
- Contest a mark straight up like a tall.
- Compete at ground level with the smalls.
- Apply forward pressure like a mid.
- Convert

It's an incredibly structural role, and played anything less than very well, a player will disappear and be a placeholder. Played well, it's game breaking.

Charlie was good on the lead, and not bad at the pressure, but not able to convert or provide enough inside 50 to really provide assistance if Reiwoldt and Kosi were well held.

Gwilt strikes as a jack of all trades master of none. He can do all required tasks, but isn't able to really imprint himself on a game.

It's really brought into focus how much we've missed Hammill - for all we knew it already, watching others try to fill the role really drives home just how much of a gun the guy was.

What I expected and didn't see against Carlton was the Saints rotating players through this role (Goddard, Gilbert, Dawson, perhaps Ray who's a pretty handy mark). While both Fisher and Dawson spent time up front, neither strikes as a ground level player, so for all Dawson kicker the sealer, they were really more adding height with Kosi shut down than they were filling the mid size role.

Gilbert IMO fits the bill pretty well. Fast enough to be a lead up, very good at ground level (which is where we need him down back ATM) and a good mark - if not at Reiwoldt/Kosi type level... he certainly contests well against the forwards he covers.

[Longwayfromhome]

Why not try Ray as the third forward ? Very good over head, quick, a reasonable kick and can tackle. We have options. This is a good thing.

[HarveysDeciple]

Gilbert = Backman

Yep.

[saintsRrising]

What I expected and didn't see against Carlton was the Saints rotating players through this role (Goddard, Gilbert, Dawson, perhaps Ray who's a pretty handy mark). .

Yes that perplexed me as well. (though I wll eclude Zac from your list as I see him as a true TALL forward rather than as the more nimble "third" tall which is normally a medium.

Instead Lyon went for a third tall a lot of the time...in our ruckman or Zac late in the game.

I was really expecting someone else such as BJ being tried there.

Makes me think that Gwilt is viewed as being out just briefly..with a kick up the bum demotion to make him focus ...perhaps on some Coach instruction that is not being carried out to the letter.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

One of the things that both Gardiner (C) and Gwilt have demonstrated to me is just how difficult the role of 3rd tall forward/medium forward is to execute in the modern game.

You've got to be able to:
- Lead like a KPP.
- Contest a mark straight up like a tall.
- Compete at ground level with the smalls.
- Apply forward pressure like a mid.
- Convert

It's an incredibly structural role, and played anything less than very well, a player will disappear and be a placeholder. Played well, it's game breaking.

Charlie was good on the lead, and not bad at the pressure, but not able to convert or provide enough inside 50 to really provide assistance if Reiwoldt and Kosi were well held.

Gwilt strikes as a jack of all trades master of none. He can do all required tasks, but isn't able to really imprint himself on a game.

It's really brought into focus how much we've missed Hammill - for all we knew it already, watching others try to fill the role really drives home just how much of a gun the guy was.

What I expected and didn't see against Carlton was the Saints rotating players through this role (Goddard, Gilbert, Dawson, perhaps Ray who's a pretty handy mark). While both Fisher and Dawson spent time up front, neither strikes as a ground level player, so for all Dawson kicker the sealer, they were really more adding height with Kosi shut down than they were filling the mid size role.

Gilbert IMO fits the bill pretty well. Fast enough to be a lead up, very good at ground level (which is where we need him down back ATM) and a good mark - if not at Reiwoldt/Kosi type level... he certainly contests well against the forwards he covers.

Agree with basically all that, although I reckon Ray (at about 188cm, the same as Gwilt) would not be tall enough to do it any better than Gwilt. That's where Gilbert, with those extra 2 inches, would have the big advantage. Anyone that kept up with him would struggle to stop him in the air. The way he marks, with his long arms fully extended up high, would make it terribly difficult for them. I reckon his marking is fantastic.
Given his age, the fact he hasn't played a lot of footy and how much he's improving each year, there's no reason he couldn't become an "elite" tall forward. As good as almost anyone. Who's to say where his improvement will end?

[plugger66]

As SR has said the last thing we need is another tall forward. Why would any club want 3 the way footy is played today. We need a lead up forward. Now they could be any height as long as they are good on the lead and over head and have a pretty big body. Jimmy was doing that role ok and as there are little options in the seconds I think he may come back in next week. Gilbert is needed down back so he will not get the role and a player like Ray just wouldnt be physically big enough to do it.

[bigcarl]

i get the feeling that bj and gilbert are considered too valuable doing what they are doing to play the medium forward, so jimmy's probably the best choice.

i know it is only one game, but the forward structure didn't look as solid without him ... or at least someone playing that role ... in it.

having said that, his lack of goals is always going to make him vulnerable if it becomes apparent there is a better option.

[saintly]

As SR has said the last thing we need is another tall forward. Why would any club want 3 the way footy is played today. We need a lead up forward. Now they could be any height as long as they are good on the lead and over head and have a pretty big body. Jimmy was doing that role ok and as there are little options in the seconds I think he may come back in next week. Gilbert is needed down back so he will not get the role and a player like Ray just wouldnt be physically big enough to do it.

so, if jimmy comes back in, who do we leave out?